Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[tirian]

Of course the creative geniuses in Disney Marketing like to use a genric Castle logo with it's bland "Disney Parks" logo.

That is still absolutely the worst logo I've ever seen anywhere. It belongs in a knock-off gift shop in Kissimmee.

 

[tirian]

Well lets take a look at the Walt Disney Pictures Logo.

The castle shown is essentially Cinderella Castle but if you look closely at the left hand side you can see that one section is actually from Sleeping Beauty Castle.

WDW's castle was repainted a pale pink at the same time this logo debuted.

Sorry to derail the thread a bit, Eddie!

 

[HMF]

That is still absolutely the worst logo I've ever seen anywhere. It belongs in a knock-off gift shop in Kissimmee.

They should have gotten the hint when these shirts did not sell.

 

[HMF]

WDW's castle was repainted a pale pink at the same time this logo debuted.

Sorry to derail the thread a bit, Eddie!

but one of the towers is indeed patterned after Sleeping Beauty Castle.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

but one of the towers is indeed patterned after Sleeping Beauty Castle.

Every time I see the Disney Pictures logo in a theater I wish that they could actually build that Castle at that immense scale with an entire Disneyland inside of it's walls. Some inside the Castle itself, (like a hotel) and the rest in it's courtyard. To me, that would be the most amazing MK of all because it would actually be one! Just driving up to it would be unforgettable, like OZ in the movie only with rides!

 

[_Scar]

Every time I see the Disney Pictures logo in a theater I wish that they could actually build that Castle at that immense scale with an entire Disneyland inside of it's walls. Some inside the Castle itself, (like a hotel) and the rest in it's courtyard. To me, that would be the most amazing MK of all because it would actually be one! Just driving up to it would be unforgettable, like OZ in the movie only with rides!

It really would be an amazing castle!

Question, does countries like Hong Kong or Paris have limitations like the States does pertaining to castle size (< 200 feet)?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It really would be an amazing castle!

Question, does countries like Hong Kong or Paris have limitations like the States does pertaining to castle size (< 200 feet)?

There are usually height restrictions in local communities (no skyscrapers in Paris proper), but not sure about Castles, especially since they have not been built lately. I'd love to see this in the middle of nowhere, like New Zealand.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Well lets take a look at the Walt Disney Pictures Logo.

The castle shown is essentially Cinderella Castle but if you look closely at the left hand side you can see that one section is actually from Sleeping Beauty Castle.

There are also influences from Le Château de la Belle au Bois Dormant, manly the secondary towers.

 

[WDW1974]

Agree. I go to mine every morning (Grande nonfat Chai) and love Starbucks, but the concept of them being so ubiquitous as to even invade a "turn of the century" fantasy world sets me off a bit. Like the article that talked about coming upon quaint towns only to find chain stores, it's the same for me. I can get a Starbucks every other morning of my life. Distract me out of my daily life, not back into it. Push me into something even BETTER, I'm at Disneyland. Dole Whip yogurt is a good example. It's branded but unique.

I'd argue that Dole Whip is nothing special at all ... and it sure is more enjoyable at the Dole plantation on Oahu (where you can get it in sundae form and with toasted coconut and many other toppings) than the tiny little cup you get at MK's Aloha Isle. ... Kind of like churros. Back in the 1980s, I thought they were so incredible because the only place I could ever get them was at WDW. Now? Everytime I walk in my local mall, I get handed out free samples that taste worlds better than Disney's.

You wanna talk unique food products, let's bring back Fantasia ice cream to DL. That was special because it was found in one place on earth and one only.

I'm also a whole lot angrier about crappy Disney franchises invading a turn of the century Main Street than I am about getting quality coffee beverages because they happen to be Starbucks. Main Street at MK has become one giant World of Disney outlet. I realize you don't get there much as opposed to DL, which thankfully still has loads of charm, but THAT is something to be unhappy about.

Aren't there more imaginative solutions out there and more uniquely american things to sell in the market house? Apple Pie? I'd rather see it in Tomorrowland as the Starbucks 3000. Xanax Lattes. That would be awesome.

Of course there are. And I think many Disney guests take Xanax Lattes as is!:ROFLOL:

But Disney has to WANT to be innovative and you above anyone on this thread should realize that.

When Disney wants to shoot for the moon we get incredible experiences.

When they don't we get crap coated in magical marketing pixie dust.

It's funny, Maxwell House Coffee (1917) used to be a sponsor and even have their own Coffee House on Main Street with this signature coffee cheesecake or some kind of dessert you could only get there. I get that. It was an experience I never had before. Starbucks is a 1970's brand and I guess I associate that whole experience with now instead of then. Whatever.

A lot of people don't realize how corporate DL and later WDW were. Moreso than today. Yet, it all seemed to fit because the sponsors and their products made sense where they were located. Much more than say a Disney toon property being thrown into Tomorrowland or a World Showcase pavilion under the guise of synergy when it's really all about the LCD and selling a certain number of units of product.

Think I'll have a pumpkin-spiced iced latte in the morning (very LATE morning!):xmas:

 

[WDW1974]

That is still absolutely the worst logo I've ever seen anywhere. It belongs in a knock-off gift shop in Kissimmee.

You don't find Disney Parks magical?

But that's what One Disney is all about.

Homogenizing the brand. Making Disney just another McD's, Starbucks or ... yeah, Walmart.

S__________g the individuality out, pushing the pixie dust in.:xmas:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'd argue that Dole Whip is nothing special at all . You wanna talk unique food products, let's bring back Fantasia ice cream to DL. That was special because it was found in one place on earth and one only.

Forgot about that! If you wanna really make money, it's having stuff like Fantasia Ice Cream that are musts every time you go (Dole Whip will have to do till then). Just ask the people that sell Dodger Dogs.

 

[tirian]

but one of the towers is indeed patterned after Sleeping Beauty Castle.

Yes, I know. There are elements of all the castles in this one.

*****

I'd love to see this one built in a park too, but the gate would have to be a walking path instead of a waterway.

 

[tirian]

Every time I see the Disney Pictures logo in a theater I wish that they could actually build that Castle at that immense scale with an entire Disneyland inside of it's walls. Some inside the Castle itself, (like a hotel) and the rest in it's courtyard. To me, that would be the most amazing MK of all because it would actually be one! Just driving up to it would be unforgettable, like OZ in the movie only with rides!

A bit reshuffling would make this incredible.

> Bring Fantasyland to the front and give all of Main Street a medieval look.* The castle could stay where it is, but (like you said) build it on a grand scale, with Versailles-inspired gardens and fountains.

> Enclose the current locations of Adventureland and Tomorrowland within the castle walls, but put FL in AL's current location and make TL a Leonardo daVinci-inspired look at the future, similar to the Vernian Discoveryland in Paris. Fantasyland represents the medieval period; Tomorrowland is the Renaissance.

> Push Adventureland and Frontierland beyond the castle walls, with suitable transitions between the areas. Think of the transition from Oz to the Deadly Desert. A desert area leads to Frontierland. A forest leads to Adventureland. Divide it like the upcoming changes to Florida's Fantasyland, but on a huge scale.

> If our kingdom must have a Victorian-era land to maintain tradition, make it a gingerbread village with Victorian elements. The characters could go here.

*But all I can think about is "Bring out your dead!" from Monty Python.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Yes, I know. There are elements of all the castles in this one.

*****

I'd love to see this one built in a park too, but the gate would have to be a walking path instead of a waterway.

What if you arrived by boat? It works in Venice Italy. Le Mont St. Michel in France has it's moat "go out with the tide" every day so it's and island and a Castle. (This castle was very influential in the design and silhouette of what was done at DLP).
Worth checking out the links. Both DLP and this Castle are attached to a rock formation on the side. Very inspirational. A town on a rock. Now we can take this to a new level?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Saint-Michel
http://www.ot-montsaintmichel.com/accueil_gb.htm

 

[Eddie Sotto]

A bit reshuffling would make this incredible.

> Bring Fantasyland to the front and give all of Main Street a medieval look.* The castle could stay where it is, but (like you said) build it on a grand scale, with Versailles-inspired gardens and fountains.

> Enclose the current locations of Adventureland and Tomorrowland within the castle walls, but put FL in AL's current location and make TL a Leonardo daVinci-inspired look at the future, similar to the Vernian Discoveryland in Paris. Fantasyland represents the medieval period; Tomorrowland is the Renaissance.

> Push Adventureland and Frontierland beyond the castle walls, with suitable transitions between the areas. Think of the transition from Oz to the Deadly Desert. A desert area leads to Frontierland. A forest leads to Adventureland. Divide it like the upcoming changes to Florida's Fantasyland, but on a huge scale.

> If our kingdom must have a Victorian-era land to maintain tradition, make it a gingerbread village with Victorian elements. The characters could go here.

*But all I can think about is "Bring out your dead!" from Monty Python.

Now you're talkin'....I'd question everything and only do what is amazing.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Eddie -

I have a question for you. I've actually thought about it for a couple weeks... How to ask you without looking like I was "baiting" you for a specific answer, or look like I was trying to find a way to "slam" any particular group (because this isn't the thread for that). But having said that, I'm just REALLY curious as to what you think... So after those disclaimers:

Do you, as a designer, concern yourself with the upkeep of an attraction after you've "handed it over to ops"? I mean, have you ever looked back at an attraction you've helped to build and get frustrated that it's not been taken care of like you want it to be? Or conversely, do you not concern yourself with that?

Is upkeep something that heavily weighs on you as you design? Do you alter your design based on who's going to be taking care of it long term (factoring in their maintenance habits, or lack thereof)?

I guess I was just thinking about it after we chatted a little about Pooh's Hunny Hunt in Tokyo, and it got me thinking. That ride is AMAZING. Simply amazing. And it's spotless. Wonderfully taken care of. The pride I would have seeing the condition of that attraction (were I a designer) would be immense. Conversely... Let's say I was on the team that worked on the Sea Cabs at the Living Seas with the chronic angler fish problems. Or WDW's Splash Mtn, with the hardly-ever-hopping Brer Rabbit, among other chronic issues. Or Alice's Curious Labrynth in Paris being pretty trashy. I think those things would drive me crazy to no end.

Also, does WDI have ANY control over the topic? For example... Tony Baxter was the lead on Big Thunder. If he was at WDW for something, and noticed the guysers at the exit of Big Thunder weren't working and it didn't make him happy can he (someome that works for the company as opposed to you, who is a hired gun) get that addressed?

I'm just really curious as to how you think about the whole topic.

 

[kcnole]

Why am I picturing a Starbucks on every corner of Main Street now?

No, I'm fairly certain they're saving the corners for the CVS and Walgreens pharmacies.

Agree. I go to mine every morning (Grande nonfat Chai) and love Starbucks, but the concept of them being so ubiquitous as to even invade a "turn of the century" fantasy world sets me off a bit. Like the article that talked about coming upon quaint towns only to find chain stores, it's the same for me. I can get a Starbucks every other morning of my life. Distract me out of my daily life, not back into it. Push me into something even BETTER, I'm at Disneyland.

People are somewhat crazy about their coffee however. I don't know how many times I've seen that topic posted on various disney message boards. "Where can I get some Starbucks coffee". I'm sure Disney has heard numerous complaints about that. So its a bit of a catch 22. While people are often willing to try other foods that aren't brand named, many people view their coffee as a drug, and if they can't get the exact coffee they're used to then they go into withdrawal.

At the same time you have the brand crisis that America currently deals with (as the article you posted points out). We have demonized large chains in America. (If you think Starbucks is demonized, just think about Wal-Mart.) So I agree with you that you have to be very careful about how you do this.

I have no problem with bringing a Starbucks in as I don't think its really that different from any other corporate sponsorship that Disney has always done. Of course, they'd need to go with one of these not starbucks starbucks. Don't name it starbucks, give it some special name and theme and maybe just put a sponored by "Starbucks" tag somewhere like they've always done.

I do agree about the names of their drinks, I wonder if there is some compromise that could be worked to give them more thematically correct names.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie -

I have a question for you. I've actually thought about it for a couple weeks... How to ask you without looking like I was "baiting" you for a specific answer, or look like I was trying to find a way to "slam" any particular group (because this isn't the thread for that). But having said that, I'm just REALLY curious as to what you think... So after those disclaimers:

Do you, as a designer, concern yourself with the upkeep of an attraction after you've "handed it over to ops"? I mean, have you ever looked back at an attraction you've helped to build and get frustrated that it's not been taken care of like you want it to be? Or conversely, do you not concern yourself with that?

Is upkeep something that heavily weighs on you as you design? Do you alter your design based on who's going to be taking care of it long term (factoring in their maintenance habits, or lack thereof)?

I guess I was just thinking about it after we chatted a little about Pooh's Hunny Hunt in Tokyo, and it got me thinking. That ride is AMAZING. Simply amazing. And it's spotless. Wonderfully taken care of. The pride I would have seeing the condition of that attraction (were I a designer) would be immense. Conversely... Let's say I was on the team that worked on the Sea Cabs at the Living Seas with the chronic angler fish problems. Or WDW's Splash Mtn, with the hardly-ever-hopping Brer Rabbit, among other chronic issues. Or Alice's Curious Labrynth in Paris being pretty trashy. I think those things would drive me crazy to no end.

Also, does WDI have ANY control over the topic? For example... Tony Baxter was the lead on Big Thunder. If he was at WDW for something, and noticed the guysers at the exit of Big Thunder weren't working and it didn't make him happy can he (someome that works for the company as opposed to you, who is a hired gun) get that addressed?

I'm just really curious as to how you think about the whole topic.

Here goes! One big reason I took on running design and planning for TDL as a portfolio because it is so well maintained. The downside is that it's far away and the company does not pay much attention to it, but the upside is that the show you produce looks like opening day FOREVER. To me this is huge. I had negative experiences with getting things fixed in DL so it does get frustrating. Back in the 90's they just didn't have the budget to be that meticulous in Anaheim. There was pressure for 20% increases every quarter so it had to come from somewhere. Things are better now for sure. The 50th $$$ rehab of the park did wonders.

It is true that the show designer may see something amiss and suggest that it get fixed and they may try and deal with it. But overall, there is a WDI Show Quality staff that sees those things before he does, and lists them for the maintenance group. Sometimes they can't be addressed until the show goes down for a yearly rehab or it breaks down enough for them to have to start over back at WDI and just redesign the effect. The operators note and submit these things too. Back in my day, sometimes the items would sit on a list for a long time till the $$ or the labor could catch up with them. The desire was there, the manpower or budget was not and they stretched to get things done back then too. There are reviews we would do of each attraction prior to it's rehab so we caught everything.

The SQS group down there is so passionate about this that they have even used their own design hours to repaint dinosaurs to their accurate colors, etc. to make the shows better. Tony was engaged as well to use rehab dollars to improve the shows rather than to just repaint them. It's taken very seriously, and I'm sure is better today than when I was involved a decade ago.

So yes, it's an issue for a designer. Having said all that, the best way to avoid this is to design things that anticipate their own maintenance. Don't put things in reach guests can steal or destroy. Try and use common sense when you design things that will be easy to fix or maintain themselves. Some effects are permanently off because they are too hard to maintain. Don't have your show depend on one effect to work for the guest or you're dead. The "Ice Machine" that dropped falling debris in Indy was off most of the time but guests didn't notice. that's why the Yeti working in EE is so important, it's the star of the show. So try and not demand it do so much that it tears itself apart for example. Guests do notice that.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I have no problem with bringing a Starbucks in as I don't think its really that different from any other corporate sponsorship that Disney has always done. Of course, they'd need to go with one of these not starbucks starbucks. Don't name it starbucks, give it some special name and theme and maybe just put a sponored by "Starbucks" tag somewhere like they've always done.

I do agree about the names of their drinks, I wonder if there is some compromise that could be worked to give them more thematically correct names.

Agree, and that's probably what will happen, but I think on this thread its healthy to discuss these things as they are exactly the "morality plays" that Imagineers debate. Part of the job.

 

[RiversideBunny]

Disney seems to have a problem splitting the profits with the popular name brand chains, like McDonald's.
For that reason bringing in Starbucks may not work out.