Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

When we go through our Magic Kingdom orientation as CMs, a lot of the facilitators have everyone pick one gem on those mosaics to call their own, so we can polish it every time we walk through the castle.

Great idea, never knew that! As long as you don't pry it out when you quit.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, I read the article. It was very interesting. I don't know if you've read Neal Gablers book on Walt (Triumph of the American Imagination). I have it on audio and listened to it many times now. He suggests that no one had any idea why Walt would cry as the Sherman brothers played it for him. He posed the possibility that among other things that perhaps the woman simply reminded Walt of his mother. It leads me to believe he somehow missed the comments from the Shermans on this. Either way, I agree with your take on the song and Walt.

On an unrelated note, may I say thank you very much for all the time you have given us all on this thread!!!

I have read Gabler's book and really enjoyed it, although it depressed me in some ways. He reveals a side of Walt I had never seen. The book made Snow White and Disneyland out as the two high points of passion in Walt's career and the rest (until Disneyland and finally EPCOT) seemed like the result of trying to make cheaper films or survival. "Song of the South" (combining animation and live action to afford the animation) and "101 Dalmations" (xerox process) were done to afford the animation, not advance it. He could never go as far out as he did with Snow White and this depressed him, according to the book. "Pinocchio" was more elaborate, but the story never clicked, and it did not achieve the success it needed to have to sustain more films like that. That sealed the fate of growth. Growing up, I never saw any of those films in that way, just accepted them as pushing boundaries and loved them. I ran into Diane, his daughter at a gathering and she was very upset to hear that I liked Gabler's version, as to her it was a travesty. I guess the way her family life was portrayed and especially Lillian, was offensive to her. I told her that the book kind of demotivated me as an Imagineer (surprised her), it seemed that her Dad lost interest in innovation after Snow White and the animator's strike, but not until Disneyland and EPCOT, reignited his passionate for the work. He seemed burned out from trying to achieve quality and struggling to support the business all his life. She denied that and said he loved all those films, held my hand and tried to encourage me in a very sincere way. Very nice lady. I'm sure the Disney Family Museum in SF is a stern reply to all of that. Have not been there yet, but eventually will check it out.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Starbucks at Disneyland

As you may know, there has been some discussion about a Starbucks coming to the Market House on MSUSA in DL. We have no idea if this will happen and how extensive the branding will be. I would assume taste will prevail, but sometimes the deals made back at the Studio affect the final theming as they make guarantees of signage and product display that Imagineers must inherit.
We'll hope for the best.

I ran across this VERY INTERESTING article about Starbucks and the movement of "brand avoidance" as the very presence of these brands homogenizes cities. Interesting read considering that Main Street could be next!

http://blogs.reuters.com/small-business/2009/11/27/the-hidden-meaning-of-the-hidden-starbucks-logo/

Please read and post your thoughts. I' d like to hear what you think.

 

[jt04]

As you may know, there has been some discussion about a Starbucks coming to the Market House on MSUSA in DL. We have no idea if this will happen and how extensive the branding will be. I would assume taste will prevail, but sometimes the deals made back at the Studio affect the final theming as they make guarantees of signage and product display that Imagineers must inherit.
We'll hope for the best.

I ran across this VERY INTERESTING article about Starbucks and the movement of "brand avoidance" as the very presence of these brands homogenizes cities. Interesting read considering that Main Street could be next!

http://blogs.reuters.com/small-business/2009/11/27/the-hidden-meaning-of-the-hidden-starbucks-logo/

Please read and post your thoughts. I' d like to hear what you think.

Well said. It's why I appreciate people like you who are still willing to create and add to the marketplace as your restaurant does so well. It's also a means to a more vibrant and secure economy. While I believe in contracting, especially at WDW, I don't think bringing in major corporations such as Starbucks is the answer most of the time. It would be infinitely preferable to see a coffee shop as imagined by your company. And I'm certain the coffee would be better because you would insist on it and you are close enough to drop in from time to time to ensure quality. Unlike the way a Starbucks would be run.

 

[GrimGhost]

I have read Gabler's book and really enjoyed it, although it depressed me in some ways. He reveals a side of Walt I had never seen. The book made Snow White and Disneyland out as the two high points of passion in Walt's career and the rest (until Disneyland and finally EPCOT) seemed like the result of trying to make cheaper films or survival. "Song of the South" (combining animation and live action to afford the animation) and "101 Dalmations" (xerox process) were done to afford the animation, not advance it. He could never go as far out as he did with Snow White and this depressed him, according to the book. "Pinocchio" was more elaborate, but the story never clicked, and it did not achieve the success it needed to have to sustain more films like that. That sealed the fate of growth. Growing up, I never saw any of those films in that way, just accepted them as pushing boundaries and loved them. I ran into Diane, his daughter at a gathering and she was very upset to hear that I liked Gabler's version, as to her it was a travesty. I guess the way her family life was portrayed and especially Lillian, was offensive to her. I told her that the book kind of demotivated me as an Imagineer (surprised her), it seemed that her Dad lost interest in innovation after Snow White and the animator's strike, but not until Disneyland and EPCOT, reignited his passionate for the work. He seemed burned out from trying to achieve quality and struggling to support the business all his life. She denied that and said he loved all those films, held my hand and tried to encourage me in a very sincere way. Very nice lady. I'm sure the Disney Family Museum in SF is a stern reply to all of that. Have not been there yet, but eventually will check it out.

Eddie, thanks for the reply. I know that from the first time I read it, what I took away (albeit with fan-colored glasses) was that Walt was a visionary genius with one foot in the past and one foot in the future who had a uncanny ability to inspire greatness in others AND that he was a significant person in the history of this country. The more times I read it however, I hear Gablers repeated psycho-analysis of Walt and his attempt to classify Walt politically. I wonder if Gabler had an agenda before he even began his research.

I hadn't previously seen anything real specific about family reaction on the book. I can certainly see what Diane was talking about as Gabler seemed to marginalize Lilian. I found Gablers take on Walt giving up on quality animation sad as well. I hope Dianes words were encouraging as I know they are to me. I certainly intend in the next couple of years to make the trek to San Francisco to see the museum and I would love to make it to LA as well if possible that trip to that I can come see your restaurant and if possible shake the hand of an imagineer.

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

As you may know, there has been some discussion about a Starbucks coming to the Market House on MSUSA in DL. We have no idea if this will happen and how extensive the branding will be. I would assume taste will prevail, but sometimes the deals made back at the Studio affect the final theming as they make guarantees of signage and product display that Imagineers must inherit.
We'll hope for the best.

I ran across this VERY INTERESTING article about Starbucks and the movement of "brand avoidance" as the very presence of these brands homogenizes cities. Interesting read considering that Main Street could be next!

http://blogs.reuters.com/small-business/2009/11/27/the-hidden-meaning-of-the-hidden-starbucks-logo/

Please read and post your thoughts. I' d like to hear what you think.

It should be fine. Disney is still stringent enough that they probably won't allow the standard Starbucks interior, especially on Main Street. It's a good opportunity, too, for Starbucks to help establish a sort of artificial nostalgia for itself, to fictionally insert their identity into our cherished collective memory of turn-of-the-century small-town America. An exercise in showing what a pleasant little mom-and-pop Starbucks coffee shop would look like back in the day.

I do shudder to think of Starbucks prices combined with Disney prices! However, if it finally brings a quality coffee product to the Guests, without disrupting the thematic integrity of Main Street, then I'm all for it.

 

[EpcotServo]

Just look at Restaruntosaurus...I think WDI is fully capable of working everyday things like McDonalds or Starbucks into really amazing places and excellent examples of Theme and Storytelling.

 

[jt04]

Just look at Restaruntosaurus...I think WDI is fully capable of working everyday things like McDonalds or Starbucks into really amazing places and excellent examples of Theme and Storytelling.

Too bad the didn't reimagineer the food.:hurl:

 

[_Scar]

Too bad the didn't reimagineer the food.:hurl:

McDonalds isn't good?

There fries are mouth watering!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It should be fine. Disney is still stringent enough that they probably won't allow the standard Starbucks interior, especially on Main Street. It's a good opportunity, too, for Starbucks to help establish a sort of artificial nostalgia for itself, to fictionally insert their identity into our cherished collective memory of turn-of-the-century small-town America. An exercise in showing what a pleasant little mom-and-pop Starbucks coffee shop would look like back in the day.

I do shudder to think of Starbucks prices combined with Disney prices! However, if it finally brings a quality coffee product to the Guests, without disrupting the thematic integrity of Main Street, then I'm all for it.

I agree that they would not do the standard interior, but what about the whole experience that is only Starbucks with it's Ventis, Grandes, and Lattes? Does that erode the Main Street middle America theme? Do we care?

Nestle does have amazing Espresso they sell all over Europe. I have one of their machines in home and office. Blows out Starbucks. It's called Nespresso, so they are a capable of doing great coffee, they just won't.

http://www1.nespresso.com/precom/home_us_en.html?xtor=SEC-148

 

[EpcotServo]

I agree that they would not do the standard interior, but what about the whole experience that is only Starbucks with it's Ventis, Grandes, and Lattes? Does that erode the Main Street middle America theme? Do we care?

Maybe something along the lines of an Immigrant Family setting up shop with the local traditional beverges from back home. "The Starbucks".
:lol:

Wordplay aside, it could be a neat nook/small cramped warm tones kind of interior to match the story and add to the turn of the century flavor.

 

[HMF]

As you may know, there has been some discussion about a Starbucks coming to the Market House on MSUSA in DL. We have no idea if this will happen and how extensive the branding will be. I would assume taste will prevail, but sometimes the deals made back at the Studio affect the final theming as they make guarantees of signage and product display that Imagineers must inherit.
We'll hope for the best.

Why am I picturing a Starbucks on every corner of Main Street now?

 

[Mansion Butler]

I personally love Starbucks, particularly for their coffee itself. I know many coffee drinkers will disagree, it's just my taste.

As a true resident of the Pacific Northwest, though, I love coffee in many, many forms. I love sitting in Starbucks just as much as I love sitting in a mom and pop coffee shop with a loft filled with thrift store furniture and hand-me-down board games.

While I'm happy and comfortable in a Starbucks, I think the unique atmosphere produced in local coffee houses is often a better experience, and unique atmosphere is the kind of thing Disney should accompany with their coffee. I don't know how much Starbucks will infringe on that in Disney locations, but I don't want it to at all, no matter how much I might like the taste.

I don't have a problem with common brands being in the parks, I just have a problem with the parks losing out on unique locations and costing me more money.

 

[HMF]

I personally love Starbucks, particularly for their coffee itself. I know many coffee drinkers will disagree, it's just my taste.

As a true resident of the Pacific Northwest, though, I love coffee in many, many forms. I love sitting in Starbucks just as much as I love sitting in a mom and pop coffee shop with a loft filled with thrift store furniture and hand-me-down board games.

While I'm happy and comfortable in a Starbucks, I think the unique atmosphere produced in local coffee houses is often a better experience, and unique atmosphere is the kind of thing Disney should accompany with their coffee. I don't know how much Starbucks will infringe on that in Disney locations, but I don't want it to at all, no matter how much I might like the taste.

I don't have a problem with common brands being in the parks, I just have a problem with the parks losing out on unique locations and costing me more money.

I am really worried about a Starbucks in WDW. Here's why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlXGotl6TvM

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I am really worried about a Starbucks in WDW. Here's why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlXGotl6TvM

Agree. I go to mine every morning (Grande nonfat Chai) and love Starbucks, but the concept of them being so ubiquitous as to even invade a "turn of the century" fantasy world sets me off a bit. Like the article that talked about coming upon quaint towns only to find chain stores, it's the same for me. I can get a Starbucks every other morning of my life. Distract me out of my daily life, not back into it. Push me into something even BETTER, I'm at Disneyland. Dole Whip yogurt is a good example. It's branded but unique. Aren't there more imaginative solutions out there and more uniquely american things to sell in the market house? Apple Pie? I'd rather see it in Tomorrowland as the Starbucks 3000. Xanax Lattes. That would be awesome.

It's funny, Maxwell House Coffee (1917) used to be a sponsor and even have their own Coffee House on Main Street with this signature coffee cheesecake or some kind of dessert you could only get there. I get that. It was an experience I never had before. Starbucks is a 1970's brand and I guess I associate that whole experience with now instead of then. Whatever.

 

[FantasyPurveyor]

Brand homogenization and Disney

I ran across this VERY INTERESTING article about Starbucks and the movement of "brand avoidance" as the very presence of these brands homogenizes cities. Interesting read considering that Main Street could be next!

http://blogs.reuters.com/small-business/2009/11/27/the-hidden-meaning-of-the-hidden-starbucks-logo/

I have always hated outside brands in the parks. To me, it smacks of the easy way out. Why take the time to create an elaborate story and theme when you can just plop down a McDonalds? Although I'm not blind to the fact that Disneyland had to lean heavily on corporate America to get built. It's too bad Disney doesn't appear interested in straying from that path despite how much bigger and self-reliant they are compared to ol' Walt's shoestring operation.

I feel brand homogenization is an insidious trend and it's nice to see some people pushing back against it. Multiple Starbucks are fine. Multiple Starbucks with the exact same layout and menu from Shanghai to Mumbai to Cairo to New York? Probably not the best usage of storytelling to further the brand.

Perhaps Disney is guilty as well? Look at the Magic Kingdoms and Disneylands. All have the same two castles. Paris is the only one that is much different and even then, it's still the same concept. I would love to see Disney play with the expected norm of a castle in a Magic Kingdom-style park (such as Shanghai). Since the Little Mermaid is the newest E-ticket being developed, why not take that opportunity to make Ariel's "castle" (really, old Pops Triton) the centerpiece of a new and compelling Disney experience? Just imagine:

Main Street Wharf- where the fishmongers cry out and the seagulls swoop through the sails of the docked schooners. In the distance, in lieu of the expected castle, there is only a vast ocean from which emanates a strange lumiscent golden glow-- as if the sun is trying to rise from the ocean itself. Walking to the end of the wharf, we can see through the ripples of the clear water the gold turrets of Ariel's castle beneath. Descending through the water, we can see Mermaids swimming through the upper reaches of the castle...

Although it would probably be a better idea to have the castle partially protruding from the water so there could be a visible weenie of some kind. I wish every Magic Kingdom offered a drastically different experience like this. Heck, it's China, lets create Mulan's castle.

 

[HMF]

Perhaps Disney is guilty as well? Look at the Magic Kingdoms and Disneylands.

.

I am going to have to disagree.
Disneyland's Sleeping Beauty Castle and Magic Kingdom's Cinderella Castle look nothing alike.
Disneyland


Walt Disney World



Of course the creative geniuses in Disney Marketing like to use a genric Castle logo with it's bland "Disney Parks" logo.

 

[FantasyPurveyor]

Perhaps Disney is guilty as well? Look at the Magic Kingdoms and Disneylands. All have the same two castles.

I am going to have to disagree.
Disneyland's Sleeping Beauty Castle and Magic Kingdom's Cinderella Castle look nothing alike.

Of course the creative geniuses in Disney Marketing like to use a genric Castle logo with it's bland "Disney Parks" logo.

Ah, I was simply referring to the same two castles in the sense of Multiple incarnations of the Disneyland castle (Hong Kong/California) and the Magic Kingdom castle (Florida/Tokyo). And, yes, the "Disney Parks" logo is bland.

 

[_Scar]

The one on the commercial is even more of a blend than that (and IMO looks quite nice lol)

 

[HMF]

Well lets take a look at the Walt Disney Pictures Logo.

The castle shown is essentially Cinderella Castle but if you look closely at the left hand side you can see that one section is actually from Sleeping Beauty Castle.