DTD: The hits just keep on coming...

[WDW1974]

The news on Starabillas isn't new ... or surprising. I guess in a depression people are less likely to spend $500 on an autographed picture of Paris Hilton (if she can actually write her name). They had numerous locations at one time, including one (maybe more) in SoFla that may have lasted 18 months.

And McD's isn't going anywhere. It will be getting a remodel, though, and 'may' be closed for a time.

As to DD, going the third party route to make it a mall/urban entertainment center (very much like one in any major US city) may have seemed smart in the heady 90s, but now it can be seen for what it has been ... a very mixed proposition.

But to call today's DD a diverse, unique shopping complex is really not true at all. It may have been that way in the 70s and 80s when there was a grand total of ONE Disney character shop and plenty of unique locations. But now? Well, you have WoD and almost every other location is an extention ... this one will sell Disney sports stuff, but don't worry that Hannah Montana DVD is on the shelf ... this one will sell Disney Christmas items, but don't worry you can get your 'Celebrate Today' four parks pin ... this one will sell make your own Disney tees, but don't worry, you'll be able to pick up a Jonas Bros CD ... etc ...

It's all one giant Disney-crap mall ...

And you have 3rd parties, who jumped at the chance to sign leases that greatly favored Disney in the 90s and earlier this decade, but now just want to survive, not expand let alone in a pricey location.

While, as someone else pointed out, CityWalk is vibrant and alive, DD is in serious trouble. No. Not financially. But the perception of it is one of a place that is dying as soon as you go past Fulton's. It's no different than when stores start closing in your mall.

And no one is racing to sign up with Disney, so don't be shocked to see Disney scramble and open up a few generic Disney crap stores in some of the vacated locations until times change or a new plan for the area is developed.

The closing of PI and redevelopment plan was all contingent on people banging down the doors to sign ... and that's not happening.

Disney can either wait the downturn out and hope things change (what I expect them to do) or they can do something bold and truly reinvent the area as something more than a giant MousecaMall.

 

[WDW1974]

Of course...it was a "night time entertainment district". PI was never meant to be bustling during the day.
Kinda like City Walk is now. The main pathway through to the parks there is full of guests going during the day, the side streets, where the clubs are....dead....until night.

Don't you get tired just speaking common sense?

And no matter what anyone believes, DD will never be as busy during the day as it is at night (special events like Festival of the Masters aside) because that's not even something Disney wants.

They want people in theme parks spending money on admission, food, drinks etc ... it's possible to have a 100% FREE day at DD. That's not something easily done at the MK!

 

[jt04]

The news on Starabillas isn't new ... or surprising. I guess in a depression people are less likely to spend $500 on an autographed picture of Paris Hilton (if she can actually write her name). They had numerous locations at one time, including one (maybe more) in SoFla that may have lasted 18 months.

And McD's isn't going anywhere. It will be getting a remodel, though, and 'may' be closed for a time.

As to DD, going the third party route to make it a mall/urban entertainment center (very much like one in any major US city) may have seemed smart in the heady 90s, but now it can be seen for what it has been ... a very mixed proposition.

But to call today's DD a diverse, unique shopping complex is really not true at all. It may have been that way in the 70s and 80s when there was a grand total of ONE Disney character shop and plenty of unique locations. But now? Well, you have WoD and almost every other location is an extention ... this one will sell Disney sports stuff, but don't worry that Hannah Montana DVD is on the shelf ... this one will sell Disney Christmas items, but don't worry you can get your 'Celebrate Today' four parks pin ... this one will sell make your own Disney tees, but don't worry, you'll be able to pick up a Jonas Bros CD ... etc ...

It's all one giant Disney-crap mall ...

And you have 3rd parties, who jumped at the chance to sign leases that greatly favored Disney in the 90s and earlier this decade, but now just want to survive, not expand let alone in a pricey location.

While, as someone else pointed out, CityWalk is vibrant and alive, DD is in serious trouble. No. Not financially. But the perception of it is one of a place that is dying as soon as you go past Fulton's. It's no different than when stores start closing in your mall.

And no one is racing to sign up with Disney, so don't be shocked to see Disney scramble and open up a few generic Disney crap stores in some of the vacated locations until times change or a new plan for the area is developed.

The closing of PI and redevelopment plan was all contingent on people banging down the doors to sign ... and that's not happening.

Disney can either wait the downturn out and hope things change (what I expect them to do) or they can do something bold and truly reinvent the area as something more than a giant MousecaMall.

If it is not in financial trouble. how is it in any trouble? I find the place incredibly enjoyable, relaxing with some great food and diversions and it is only half of what it could be. Add an ESPNZone and the Imax and it is well on it's way. Total win. I was never an AC fanboi or blinded by PI pixie dust so maybe that is why I fail to see DTD as "troubled".:shrug:

 

[Lee]

But my question remains, why don't some enterprising folks lease the AC building and negotiate with Disney for some of the show elements? If it is the gold mine you guys say I am sure Disney would be all for it since they would get a piece of the pie without doing anything :shrug:

Disney was approached about that very thing. They declined.
When I heard of it, I tried to find out the reason.
The only response I could get was "We're keeping our options open."

 

[jt04]

Don't you get tired just speaking common sense?

And no matter what anyone believes, DD will never be as busy during the day as it is at night (special events like Festival of the Masters aside) because that's not even something Disney wants.

They want people in theme parks spending money on admission, food, drinks etc ... it's possible to have a 100% FREE day at DD. That's not something easily done at the MK!

Hmmm, I have been stuck several times trying to find a parking space on the marketplace side during the daytime. Just saying.

 

[EpcoTim]

Precisely why it was a total fail. No patrons, no revenue. Thanks for making my point.

LOL, you must have no concept of the service industry. A lot of bars don't even open til 5 or 6. The term 'Nightlife' was not coined as a phrase to indicate failure. Look into the bar scene in a lot of big cities. Some bars are only open 3 nights a week. Some don't open til 7 or 8. Yet they still thrive.

Thats the point of PI. To provide night time entertainment. They make enough off of alcohol sales and door fees to turn a healthy profit.

 

[jt04]

Disney was approached about that very thing. They declined.
When I heard of it, I tried to find out the reason.
The only response I could get was "We're keeping our options open."

If they were approached without a proper business model, I am sure that would be their exact response.

 

[jt04]

LOL, you must have no concept of the service industry. A lot of bars don't even open til 5 or 6. The term 'Nightlife' was not coined as a phrase to indicate failure. Look into the bar scene in a lot of big cities. Some bars are only open 3 nights a week. Some don't open til 7 or 8. Yet they still thrive.

Thats the point of PI. To provide night time entertainment. They make enough off of alcohol sales and door fees to turn a healthy profit.

Which is why Disney saw PI as a failure. Marketplace packed day and night, PI empty all day long. Nuff said.

 

[Enchantâmes]

I know your not familiar with any transformation. Perhaps you are like many who are frozen in "PI mode" and therefore can't forsee or imagine where they are going. Or maybe you just are not able to see outside the "mall" business model.

Disney will never lock the DTD concept into a backstory or single themed immersion again. I promise you they have learned from that mistake. All the yelling and foot stomping by the AC fans has only reinforced that. All the petitions etc. only reinforced why PI was poorly conceived from day 1.

DTD will be a hybrid. Instead of theme park/mall example, I should have said carnival/mall hybrid. It will be an eclectic mix thereby allowing the flexibility required in today's business world.

I'm sorry but isn't that what Walt wanted to avoid? I don't think tourists come to Florida to see a hybrid mall... They go to Mall of America for that. To be honest I don't think thats such a great idea, I mean Disney is all about story telling not carnival... I don't think Mr.Disney wanted that in the least. And I'm sorry you have a problem with people caring about PI and AC, but you do not need to characterize us as brats. Over 4,000 people were involved the day the closure was announced, I apologize if we have a problem with quality being removed for a mall that you can find anywhere in the country. But as far as I know I'm going to keep "stomping and yelling" because I really think Disney's current managment made a mistake. Have a Magical Day. :wave:

 

[WDW1974]

If it is not in financial trouble. how is it in any trouble? I find the place incredibly enjoyable, relaxing with some great food and diversions and it is only half of what it could be. Add an ESPNZone and the Imax and it is well on it's way. Total win. I was never an AC fanboi or blinded by PI pixie dust so maybe that is why I fail to see DTD as "troubled".:shrug:

It isn't in financial trouble because Disney closed one third of the property and no longer has to pay the costs of operating that area beyond a few basics. Disney's DD retail has been hugely profitable (at least before 2008-09). And they are making plenty of money off the tenants that remain.

BUT if they keep losing tenants, especially huge ones like Virgin, it will be a different matter. Add that up with much lower guest spend on merchandise and there will be financial issues.

And perception can easily become reality ... people don't gravitate to areas that feel empty and depressed. So, if they aren't careful while they attempt to stem the bleeding on TSFKaPI, then a huge bleeder will open up in the Westside.

Disney can't afford that to happen.

 

[Enchantâmes]

Which is why Disney saw PI as a failure. Marketplace packed day and night, PI empty all day long. Nuff said.

Right... even though I have pictures from 2006 where PI was packed and I wen't to PI occasionally from 2005-2008 and it had a very healthy amount of people every night...

 

[CaptainMichael]

Disney was approached about that very thing. They declined.
When I heard of it, I tried to find out the reason.
The only response I could get was "We're keeping our options open."

Very unfortunate. I'd like to see optimism in the "options open" comment, but it probably means they'd rather sell the building to a higher bidder.

If they were approached without a proper business model, I am sure that would be their exact response.

You're right, Disney doesn't have a proper business model for DTD

Which is why Disney saw PI as a failure. Marketplace packed day and night, PI empty all day long. Nuff said.

They knew what they were doing when they built PI. They wanted a nighttime entertainment place. It's not like anything in PI was open during the day...

Also, if Disney started charging parking fees for DTD, your beloved Marketplace wouldn't be so "packed" during the day.

 

[Lee]

If they were approached without a proper business model, I am sure that would be their exact response.

No.
Let me be more clear.
They were approached by an interested party to take over full operations of the Club, and pay Disney rent, royalties, and a cut of the income.
Disney declined. They preferred to retain the Club for their own future uses, whatever they may be.

Which is why Disney saw PI as a failure. Marketplace packed day and night, PI empty all day long. Nuff said.

No, they did not see it as a failure because it was empty during the day. As 74 said, it was planned to be that way, dead during the day while guests were in the parks, jumping at night. And it was...for years.

They really didn't see it as a failure at all. What they saw was an opportunity to make a little more money without having the hassle of having to acutally operate the businesses. "Failure" is an entirely incorrect term to use.

 

[EpcoTim]

Which is why Disney saw PI as a failure. Marketplace packed day and night, PI empty all day long. Nuff said.

LOL. Economics 101 anyone? Disney didn't, I repeat, didn't see it as a failure because of its operating hours. No company does that. The 24 hour diner thats ben there for over 60 years. It's packed from 1 am til 5 am. Complete failure. 60 years of failure. No one sets up a "night time" district with expectations of having the place packed during the day.

No, Disney and all other companies deem something a failure based on how profitable it is. How much money they bring in. And alcohol is a very profitable item. Disney, as Lee stated, changed it's business plan for the worse.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If it is not in financial trouble. how is it in any trouble? I find the place incredibly enjoyable, relaxing with some great food and diversions and it is only half of what it could be. Add an ESPNZone and the Imax and it is well on it's way. Total win. I was never an AC fanboi or blinded by PI pixie dust so maybe that is why I fail to see DTD as "troubled".:shrug:

Because it takes time.

The new IMAX at Downtown Disney is one of one hundred that AMC is adding to its existing theater operations across the country. Hardly a move towards the unique. ESPN Zone is more unique, with only nine, but existing ones are in rather well populated areas.

 

[jt04]

Very unfortunate. I'd like to see optimism in the "options open" comment, but it probably means they'd rather sell the building to a higher bidder.

And?


You're right, Disney doesn't have a proper business model for DTD

I wish somone would tell the crowds. I might not have to wait 20 minutes for a sandwich or ice cream then.


They knew what they were doing when they built PI. They wanted a nighttime entertainment place. It's not like anything in PI was open during the day...

It was still shortsighted.

Also, if Disney started charging parking fees for DTD, your beloved Marketplace wouldn't be so "packed" during the day.

Unless they used certified parking.

 

[jt04]

No.
Let me be more clear.
They were approached by an interested party to take over full operations of the Club, and pay Disney rent, royalties, and a cut of the income.
Disney declined. They preferred to retain the Club for their own future uses, whatever they may be.

No, they did not see it as a failure because it was empty during the day. As 74 said, it was planned to be that way, dead during the day while guests were in the parks, jumping at night. And it was...for years.

They really didn't see it as a failure at all. What they saw was an opportunity to make a little more money without having the hassle of having to acutally operate the businesses. "Failure" is an entirely incorrect term to use.

I contend it will be more than a little bit more money. It's not like the clubs were drawing crowds with tons of disposible income every night. If Citywalk had never opened it is possible PI would have been viable. But in the end I think CW just siphoned off what profit it was making. Hence fail.

 

[WDW1974]

Hmmm, I have been stuck several times trying to find a parking space on the marketplace side during the daytime. Just saying.

So have I. Big deal.

Parking has been cut back on the old village side as things have expanded into parking areas and bus stations and entryways are in an almost constant state of flux.

And DD can be busy during the day, especially on weekends (those locals so many here ignore tend to come out then) and holidays.

But Disney isn't trying to make DD an attraction in its own right so it competes and cannibalizes the theme park goers.

You know JT, while others here sometimes go out on limbs to bring information to the fan community, you speak in generalities so that you will always be right at some point. In other words, you don't say anything. (you should try working for Disney PR)

When you say DD is in 'transition' and new things will come and Disney has a plan, you can never be proven wrong (even if you are right now) because at SOME point in the future (be it 2011, 2015 or 2234) you'll be right. It's the same as saying big things are coming to the parks, but offering no specifics because you don't have them. At SOME point in the future there will be another E-Ticket at the MK, a major new area will be added to DAK, new attractions will come to EPCOT etc ... but nothing (except for Star Tours 2.0) has been approved NOW.

But it's like me saying on March 24th that rain is on the way to Florida ... at some point, it'll rain.

At some point DD will be different and, one can only surmise, better than what it is now (better than it was in 1975, 1989 or 1997 is debatable). But that day isn't here or close and Disney's plans have fallen through. Whatever happens will be Plan B, C, D etc ... but so long as you say 'change is coming' your is covered.

 

[jt04]

LOL. Economics 101 anyone? Disney didn't, I repeat, didn't see it as a failure because of its operating hours. No company does that. The 24 hour diner thats ben there for over 60 years. It's packed from 1 am til 5 am. Complete failure. 60 years of failure. No one sets up a "night time" district with expectations of having the place packed during the day.

No, Disney and all other companies deem something a failure based on how profitable it is. How much money they bring in. And alcohol is a very profitable item. Disney, as Lee stated, changed it's business plan for the worse.

You are right, Disney does not have a clue of how to make money.

 

[TP2000]

DTD will be a hybrid. Instead of theme park/mall example, I should have said carnival/mall hybrid. It will be an eclectic mix thereby allowing the flexibility required in today's business world.

You seem to be describing the types of outdoor places that exist in some cities already. Here in SoCal they call them "Lifestyle Centers" and they mesh rides like carousels and giant ferris wheels with upscale dining and shopping and nightclubs. They even have themed antique electric trolleys taking shoppers and diners and Date Niters around the streets. They clearly use Disney theme parks as inspiration.

There's The Americana in Glendale not far from the Walt Disney Imagineering campus. http://www.americanaatbrand.com/

And there's also the 10+ year old and very succesful Irvine Spectrum about 10 minutes down the Santa Ana Freeway from Disneyland. http://www.shopirvinespectrumcenter.com/LiveEntertainment.aspx

It's a shopping center business model that has proven very succesful, at least in Southern California where the weather is perfect. And these places are jam packed on weekend nights! Since TDO has thrown out the original business model, DTD in Florida would be smart to follow the path towards something like The Americana.