Disney ( World ) vs. Disney ( Land )? - Jim Hills Thoughts

[BrightImagine]

The problem is that there is no middle ground. It's either come here, and endure the periodic fights and name-calling, or go to that other place, where people report that you get banned for the slightest thing other than positivity. Why do we have to choose between absolute positivity and total dejected cynicism? Where can we go for a balanced discussion of WDW? I have yet to find a third alternative. I continue to come here because there is good information to be found and thoughtful contributors mixed in with the cynics and insults. But sometimes it's really hard.

 

[Rasvar]

I avoided this thread because I knew it would be heated. I'm not sure what Jim Hill was thinking in this write up. I'm not even going to try to guess. The one point he is right on is that money is being invested. I think a lot of us agree on that. The problem is where it is being invested. If you have a problem with occupancy and having to discount, the simple rule of supply and demand say you stop increasing supply. The problem is that the "wizards" see the DVC's are selling and they help reinforce the idea of keeping people on property hoping to maintain a captive audience. Yet, Magical Express is declining in numbers, occupancy is down and the resorts are discounting heavily. You get the short term money and profits from a DVC up front but you are left with a back end disaster since you are not addressing the source of the problem. Golden Oak is the same deal. You get a lot of money up front. It makes the bottom line look good. However, very little of this expensive investment will stem the ultimate problem.

FLE is a nice addition. I really doubt that it will influence more than a fraction of a percent of guests to extend their visit or spend more $$$'s at Disney. It will likely be a do this versus that kind of situation. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. It certainly won't stop someone from leaving property to go to Universal, which really seems to be business model that TDO wants to develop. If the profits from DVC and Golden Oak were being directly tied to future investment in the parks, it might make some sense. However, that is not the way the finances work.

Jim is flat out wrong in comparing DVC and Golden Oak investment as investment into the product. It just happens to be located on the property. I dare say that many of the newer DVC's actual reduce some of the resorts attractiveness. I still hate how Bay Lake Towers destroyed the pleasant visual symmetry of the Contemporary Resort. The new DVC at the Grand Floridian looks way too big and also eliminated a pleasant beach area. I fear a new DVC at the Poly will be an even worse visual eyesore. But it will be built because it brings in short term money. It won't do a single positive thing for the vast majority of guests that visit the Vacation Kingdom. Yes, DLR has a smaller footprint but the vast majority of its investment has gone into improving the experience for all of its guests. Even the big focus of NextGen is what is likely going to be a money plused version of Fastpass that won't be available to everyone. FLE is the only real addition to that list. Sorcerers is nice if you have a lot of time. You almost need to be an annual passholder to enjoy it because it is too time consuming for someone who only has one or two days in the MK. Agent P is just an update to Kim Possible. Not anything new. The Phineas and Ferb thing at DTD? Really Jim? I saw it in action. It is really not much more than an updated Dreamfinder's School of Drama and not even as well done. If I had enough money for the big screen, camera and a couple thousand dollars of computer software (i.e. a lot for me but almost petty cash for TDO) I could set something like that up. Probably the most expensive part of that was paying the voice talent. It was really just a very poor comparison. TDO is not putting the money where it needs to go.

 

[DougK]

Be careful what you wish for everyone. No offense meant to Steve, but this site would be a lot less interesting without WDW1974. I hope he does not get banned and I hope he does not stop posting.

 

[tomman710]

Be careful what you wish for everyone. No offense meant to Steve, but this site would be a lot less interesting without WDW1974. I hope he does not get banned and I hope he does not stop posting.

I'd agree with this. I left this site for a while but came back because I appreciate that (while we do have mods) they mostly allow free speech ... good or bad. All should be able to have a voice ... sigh ... even JT.

 

[nytimez]

Basic stuff... if you don't like someone's post or personality, use the "ignore" button or stop whining. Makes you sound desperate for attention otherwise.

Now can we please get back on topic? I'd like to know more about the Spirited Changes coming to WDW, not about who doesn't like who on these boards and why.

 

[Rasvar]

I dare say that many of the newer DVC's actual reduce some of the resorts attractiveness. I still hate how Bay Lake Towers destroyed the pleasant visual symmetry of the Contemporary Resort.

I want to call myself out on this before someone else does. Yes, the Convention Center did ruin visual symmetry prior. I hate that overgrown building that looks like a bowling alley on steroids. It was not as visually disruptive and if you were on the backside of the resort enjoying the marina, pool or beach, it may as well not have even existed. I just find the new tower to be a jarring urban blight on the landscape.

 

[ChrisM]

I'd like to know more about the Spirited Changes coming to WDW, not about who doesn't like who on these boards and why.

So would I.

Unfortunately you have to wade through roughly 75 pages of posts to find the 6 actual posts that have worthwhile information in them.

The rest are just some variation of "awesome!", "terrible!", or "you're an idiot".

 

[baymenxpac]

What about road widening? Mr. Hill mentioned the road widening a few times in the article, and it's a legit expense. Does road widening get you heading to Expedia to check on flights to Orlando?

OH YOU BET!

listen, jim's points are well taken. there have been investments. but it's sort of like buying shares of a stock and selling them at a profit when your portfolio still includes enron. i'm not a guy who goes ballastic over a stray napkin on the ground on main street or anything, but when there are attractions that have been closed down and never reopened? or attractions that aren't even worth doing? come on.

the problem is jim and other people who want to defend disney this way look at the FLE through a scoop that views it as a glorious expansion. and honestly, yes i think it will be great. looking forward to experiencing it. but it was built primarily to deal with capacity issues, it focuses on a finite number of disney guests, and it's in their most successful park. very rarely am do i find myself wandering around the MK asking myself, "gee, what the heck do i even want to do?"

but i do that with future world. and DHS, to the point where i have vowed not to return to DHS until something is added. AK gets a major pass from me, because i have to say, my experience there this past trip was a blast. one of my best days on property. really have come to appreciate it as a well-themed park (save for dinoland). so when "fanbois" complain about those parks, i can understand it.

again, not looking for project gemini or anything. just want to be able to do soarin' (sans dust specks, which really...make this whole argument for me) and then go and be able to fill enough time elsewhere so i can amuse myself til an 11:30 lunch reservation. and this trip, it was pretty difficult to do.

 

[ParentsOf4]

So would I.

Unfortunately you have to wade through roughly 75 pages of posts to find the 6 actual posts that have worthwhile information in them.

The rest are just some variation of "awesome!", "terrible!", or "you're an idiot".

You lost me. This thread is about Jim Hill's article, along the lines of "What do you think of it"? If you are looking for discussions about "Spirited Changes", perhaps you should be looking on another thread?

 

[nytimez]

You lost me. This thread is about Jim Hill's article, along the lines of "What do you think of it"? If you are looking for discussions about "Spirited Changes", perhaps you should be looking on another thread?

This is true. The thread title is problematic, as discussed, since it clearly is trying to mimic the title of the thread that really is on Spirited Changes and is causing at least me to click here when I want to go there.

If someone could fix that, we'd all be good (although my point -- and ChrisM's -- would apply equally to the other thread).

 

[TalkingHead]

The primary reason 74's persona is the subject of discussion is because there's so little happening at WDW.

I'm guessing if TDO was building and expanding like Universal is, very few people would find it necessary to debate how 74 comes across in his posts.

To be clear, I don't have any problem with 74, and I find his posting style entertaining. But, really, all the venom thrown his way is a reflection of how dull WDW has become.

 

[spacemt354]

Be careful what you wish for everyone. No offense meant to Steve, but this site would be a lot less interesting without WDW1974. I hope he does not get banned and I hope he does not stop posting.

For the record, I don't either. I just don't think it's too much to ask for mature human beings in an online community to act like... I don't know, mature human beings?

If I wanted to see something interesting, there are other places I can get a laugh, or witness arrogance and insults. I'll just go watch reality TV. I don't expect that kind of dialouge on a Disney website, nor do I think it is really neccessary.

Basic stuff... if you don't like someone's post or personality, use the "ignore" button or stop whining. Makes you sound desperate for attention otherwise.

Now can we please get back on topic? I'd like to know more about the Spirited Changes coming to WDW, not about who doesn't like who on these boards and why.

The problem with that as I said before, is he offers good insight, which makes it more difficult for me to ignore. It's easier for me to ignore opinions like "WDW is utter trash" or "WDW can do no wrong" which doesn't spark debate but rather frustration due to a lack of supporting evidence cited.

But nevertheless, yes apologies, back on topic.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

I don't see '74 being banned for what he said. And i'd be even more surprised if the mods did so but then allowed Jim Hill to come here and post with that same attitude he exhibited in his article. Jim Hill instigated this thread and all the insults that resulted in it, one would hope people remember that '74 didn't say anything until he and the rest of us were provoked. Hill just outright insulted everyone who has any sort of objectivity in their views of WDW, and called them fanbois (which again is the wrong term as a fanboy would be someone who likes every single thing given to them without question). I think it's become rather funny (but very telling) that certain people here are so incredibly desperate to get '74 banned and silenced that they're stooping to trying to use Jim Hill (and in another thread, Screamscape) as sources to discredit him.

There are plenty of people out there who are simply insatiable, no doubt about it. But much of that would simply be nitpicking if the parks truly WERE as good if not better than ever. Not so however. It's gotten to the point where regular guests at the parks are noticing the downfall and choosing to pass Disney because better products now exist (most definitely not an outspoken minority as before). Like TalkingHead said, there's just little to nothing else going on at WDW at the moment, it makes threads like this swell because there's nothing else to talk about. Unless you find announcements about expanded seating at Fantasmic or new restrooms to be absolutely riveting and life changing news, akin to a new E-ticket or whatnot

It's incredibly comforting to hear from '74, Lee, Martin, and the rest of the REAL insiders here (the ones who actually know what they're talking about and DO have inside sources) saying that there's good change heading our way. So lets hope for more meaningful discussion in the future.

 

[Ignohippo]

I don't see '74 being banned for what he said. And i'd be even more surprised if the mods did so but then allowed Jim Hill to come here and post with that same attitude he exhibited in his article. Jim Hill instigated this thread and all the insults that resulted in it, one would hope people remember that '74 didn't say anything until he and the rest of us were provoked. Hill just outright insulted everyone who has any sort of objectivity in their views of WDW, and called them fanbois (which again is the wrong term as a fanboy would be someone who likes every single thing given to them without question). I think it's become rather funny (but very telling) that certain people here are so incredibly desperate to get '74 banned and silenced that they're stooping to trying to use Jim Hill (and in another thread, Screamscape) as sources to discredit him.

There are plenty of people out there who are simply insatiable, no doubt about it. But much of that would simply be nitpicking if the parks truly WERE as good if not better than ever. Not so however. It's gotten to the point where regular guests at the parks are noticing the downfall and choosing to pass Disney because better products now exist (most definitely not an outspoken minority as before). Like TalkingHead said, there's just little to nothing else going on at WDW at the moment, it makes threads like this swell because there's nothing else to talk about. Unless you find announcements about expanded seating at Fantasmic or new restrooms to be absolutely riveting and life changing news, akin to a new E-ticket or whatnot

It's incredibly comforting to hear from '74, Lee, Martin, and the rest of the REAL insiders here (the ones who actually know what they're talking about and DO have inside sources) saying that there's good change heading our way. So lets hope for more meaningful discussion in the future.

^ AMEN!

 

[Captain Chaos]

If '74 ever got banned, then Steve would havr to ban JT, Jimmy Think, Condorman, and several others who are here to solely bait and flame and disrupt the site and attack the members... What is good for one is good the rest...

 

[Ignohippo]

The primary reason 74's persona is the subject of discussion is because there's so little happening at WDW.

I'm guessing if TDO was building and expanding like Universal is, very few people would find it necessary to debate how 74 comes across in his posts.

To be clear, I don't have any problem with 74, and I find his posting style entertaining. But, really, all the venom thrown his way is a reflection of how dull WDW has become.

That's exactly it. For an example, there wouldn't be any complaints at all about the FLE if it included one or two more real attractions and CircusLand weren't such a huge waste of space. Getting rid of the MK's small excuse of a ToonTown and not replacing it doesn't help either.

But, I'm just a "fanboy" who likes to complain and isn't satisfied with anything...

 

[Ignohippo]

If '74 ever got banned, then Steve would havr to ban JT, Jimmy Think, Condorman, and several others who are here to solely bait and flame and disrupt the site and attack the members... What is good for one is good the rest...

I wouldn't lump those together. One of them flames other posters relentlessly, doesn't add anything of substance at all and should be banned. The others just throw around their opinions (which they have every right to do – agree or not).

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Benny Hills thoughts would be equally valid.

 

[Ignohippo]

All of us are guilty of thread drift from time to time (some of us more than others). It's funny that you'd accuse JT of derailing threads when your comment is quite a bit off topic. No worries, it's part of what happens on message boards. Most of the time, the drift is more compelling than the original topic!

• WDW74 is a colorful personality with great insider info. Personal attacks aside, he's easily one of the best members of this board. This site wouldn't be nearly as much fun without him and he's one of the reasons I check this board every day.

• JT has a much different perspective than the rest of us but he's passionate and never rude. He has every right to his opinion.

• Jimmy certainly thinks he's funnier than he is, but I get a chuckle from his comments from time to time. IMO, his comments add color to the board.

As for Condorman, he adds absolutely nothing. He attacks with name-calling just to attack and never adds anything of substance.

What was this thread about again?

 

[Hakunamatata]

Benny Hills thoughts would be equally valid.

Can't look for the sheepin in the rainin....