Disney ( World ) vs. Disney ( Land )? - Jim Hills Thoughts

[ChrisM]

I don't see '74 being banned for what he said.

I don't think he should be. In the interests of mature conversation, however, I think it would behoove him to act like less of a wang. His schtick is fine most of the time, but occasionally he strays into raving lunatic mode.

And i'd be even more surprised if the mods did so but then allowed Jim Hill to come here and post with that same attitude he exhibited in his article. Jim Hill instigated this thread and all the insults that resulted in it, one would hope people remember that '74 didn't say anything until he and the rest of us were provoked.

Is that actually what happened? I was under the impression that a third party simply linked to a Jim Hill article. Was it Hill who came here and started this thread? If not, you're looking for reasons to be offended. If so, I can sort of understand where you're coming from.

As for Hill, I'm completely ambivalent about the guy. The only times I've read his articles are when they pop up here.

 

[flynnibus]

I had never been to Jim's blog before. Maybe this post is getting a lot of traffic for him. I left a response but he has not had anything to say to it yet.
Isn't money for roads and infrastructure separate from Parks and Resorts? Isn't it paid for by the city Reedy Creek? Yes Disney owns it but that is not money that was ever intended for attractions.

Governments rarely pay for everything on their own. Go look up 'proffers' and how they play into how governments hold non-government entities to paying for what is usually turned over to the government after completition.

And Disney is rcid only tax base. So Disney pays for it either way. But direct capital programs it's simpler for Disney just to pay for it.

A simple traffic light installation can cost over 100k.. Interchanges can easily be in the millions.

It's never been a question of Disney spending - its has Disney been KEEPING UP as they should be and where their focus is in developing the parks.

Dvc is not about diverting money- its about focus and what one markets to improve the product

Main street scrims for the last years have been great - yet other areas continue to faulter on the weekly basis.

These arguments always resort to diversions rather than keeping on the topic of show standards (which is not something you address in 5 yr scheduled refurbs) and the direction of the product.

The Dl comparisons are just stupid when trying to compare absolute numbers. Wdw's transportation budget alone probably trumps DL's entire operating budget. Heck wdw's landscaping budget probably is bigger than most Dl departments.

Wdw takes insane money to just keep afloat. They are fixing things - but largely on the long cycle level and not on the micro level. That's the show standard problem.

 

[ParentsOf4]

What was this thread about again?

I thought it about why we should be worshipping TDO because they've built $200/point DVCs at GF, multi-million dollar vacation homes for the Über Rich, and widened a road. Golly, I enjoy my days off!

 

[flynnibus]

Is it bad I had to look up who Jim Hill is? I know who Rick is and have exchanged emails with him. Nice guy. Never heard of the former however. I guess the wash up statement earlier is true.

It's because 'his time' was before many of the posters here were active in the community.

IMO - he has simply been taken over by others with better business skills than he has. And in the face of competition, the positives he had were not good enough on their own to keep him relevant. Never mind the weaknesses he has had also undercutting him.

In short, almost a 'has been' in the Disney community that failed to evolve when the market did.

 

[flynnibus]

I guess my question is, has he changed, or has everyone else?

People do things to keep food on the table.. Jim hill turned to trying to be a Disney analyst and you have a hard time doing that if you are isolated... Basically he became dependent on disney's good grace to make his business work.

Another one of his business blunders

 

[RSoxNo1]

Reprinted from JHM:

Hey Jim, Why not pop over to WDWMagic and have a "Spirited" discussion about this article?​

​

EDITOR'S NOTE: Sorry, but no, Unkadug. From what I saw earlier this evening, they've already boiling the tar & plucking the feathers for me over at WDWMagic.​

Someday I might be willing to come on by and then try to have an adult conversation with the folks there about this rather complex issue. But given that I've already been called fat, pathetic, an online and a sell-out by WDW1974 at that site ... Well, what's the point of going on over to the WDWMagic discussion boards when I'd then just be forced to get down in the mud with someone like that? A person who seems to take such obvious pleasure in smearing other people's reputation but then isn't brave enough to actually back up what he says/writes by posting any of those deliberately inflammatory comments under his real name?​

More to the point, I have a rather complex history when it comes to WDWMagic. You see, JHM used to have this webmaster, Cory Mitchell, who delighted in regularly going over to that website and then deliberately stirring up trouble. Cory would go out of his way to off the people who posted on the WDWMagic discussion boards, all the while talking up the fact that he was JHM's webmaster.​

Mind you, I didn't condone or encourage Mr. Mitchell's bad behavior. But I have certainly paid for it on WDWMagic's discussion boards ever since then. So even though Cory hasn't worked for JHM for over eight years now, there are still people who post at that website who even today hold a grudge when it comes to myself or JimHillMedia. Which is why -- on WDWMagic -- I have been accused of everything short of kidnapping the Lindbergh baby.​

Look. I get it. When you run a website, that then makes you a public figure. Which means that you have to develop a very thick skin. Which is why you then have to learn to let insults slide off your back.​

But on the other hand, just because you run a website doesn't mean that you then have an obligation to deliberately put yourself in harm's way. Enter into situations where you know that people -- particularly posters who won't ever use their real names -- are then going to go out of their way to attack & insult you.​

Unkadug, it's not like I have to have my butt kissed / have to be promised to be treated with kid gloves before I'll then agree to go on someone else's website or take part in someone else's podcast. Just ask the WDWFanboys. I'm on their podcast every couple of months. And I can promise you that Brett, Tim and Paul never treat me with anything even approaching respect. That's honestly half the fun of going on their podcast. The challenging questions they toss my ways, the way that the WDWFanboys will deliberately cut me off in mid-sentence if they think my answer is getting too long or is just too boring.​

But honestly, life is just too short to deal with people like WDW1974. Who -- while they may offer great insights / have terrific inside information about the way The Walt Disney Company actually operates -- use the anonymity of the Web as an excuse to personally attack those that they don't know & have never met with an excessive amount of venom.​

So if you want to put WDW1974 on a short leash and/or insist that this guy start posting all of his over-the-top, unnecessarily nasty comments about me & the stuff that I write under his real name ... THEN I might consider coming on by WDWMagic's discussion boards and having a chat with all of the nice folks over there. But given how WDW1974 seems to bully & bait all those who dare to disagree with him ... Somehow I just don't see that happening anytime soon.​

Thanks for the invite, though ...​

I'm glad you posted this, and I think he continues to bring up good points here. Much of Jim's reputation on this site isn't particularly fair.

Look, I don't really agree with this article. There hasn't been much of substance (read, no E-tickets) added to Disney World all while Disneyland Resort and Universal Orlando is spending money on rides. It doesn't mean that additions aren't being made, but the lack of major rides is a legit concern. The choices that have been made look short sighted when we see things like maintenance slipping and crowds shifting over to Universal.

First thing first lets define what a fanboi is:

Yeah, it's an interesting choice of words as "fanboi" is used ironically.

So reading that article, he came across as the biggest fanboi - since Capt. Smurf - and even then he doesn't appear as a fan of theme parks, so why cover it?. Otherwise his assertions on that the general public doesn't want rich immersive experience based attractions like POTC or the Mansion, is plain wrong, as these are the same rides they are built/building in Shanghai/Tokyo/HK. You know these seem types of tourist who visit WDW/DL - so I wonder who is feeding those lines to him?

They are spending money on the 'New new but not really new' Fantasyland expansion - which in terms of gains what have we gained really? A new French but not French restaurant whilst the other stuff is replacing counter service/rides that have been closed as well as the moving around of M+G. Well at least they got all the Parks Potter Swatters opened before HP2.0 arrives ... well at least they got one opened. Oh and in case Hill is reading this - ya know these were foisted upon TDO, and yes they did slash the budget on the Space Mtn Refurb - something Hill claims never happens at TDO. :barf: So where are all the Spideman Slappers, Potter Swatters and now Transformer Thrashers for which TDO should be competing with UNI?

Hill is also correct money is being spent on building DVC/Hotels/Millionaire McManshions but what do they add for the day guest coming to the parks - move DVC doesn't improve their experience neither do new hotels. However when the rest of infrastructure like transportation is in need of TLC, and no draw for the parks - then you end up with low occupancy numbers and a stale product to boot. So then what was the point of dropping paint on the other side of POP - when a wrecking ball would of been more appropriate?

But they are adding Next Gen,the most nebulous statement and most divisive statement since a similar term crept up in by line of work in programming, and FP+ will it really help the day guest? Of course it won't help anyone - when I travel "from across the pond" do I want to plan each mealtime with military precision? Nope. Do I want to plan which park I'm in years/months/days in advance? Nope.

That is Mr.Hill's agenda to simply promote more and more of the wonders of Next Gen and FP+ :barf: to gain more access for his articles, like nature's symbiotic relationship between birds and hippopotami. Hill is a great storyteller - you maybe should stop using kid gloves and move on to boxing gloves.

But if ya want to reply can we take it to PM -cause I think its going to get heated up, and don't want to let things go down Hill.

I'm not sure it's necessary to take this to PM because it looks like you're having this conversation in a civil manner. We've long said on this site that if Disney ignores a certain demographic for long enough they will lose that demographic. You have your true fanbois that truly believe Disney can do no wrong, then you have the other extreme where they can do no right. Reality is somewhere in the middle, but it's those people that they need to cater to.

WDW1974 has commended recent offerings like Star Tours and put down others. The last 36 hours aside, he is a reasonable person who simply wants the best for the parks.

Jim Hill is presenting an alternative approach to us doom and gloomers (perhaps a more appropriate term than fanboi) and he's getting blasted for it. We're allowed to disagree with his article. WDW1974 (and others) are allowed to accuse him of being a Disney apologist. I don't think that's the case, but you're entitled to believe how ever you want. What's bothered me about all this are the personal attacks made by WDW1974 and others, they're completely unjustified.

As long as the discussion stays on the content of the article and not the personal life of the author, I'm cool with it.

Now to the content of the article:

• More money is being spent on tangible things in Disneyland than Disney World.
• Disney World is filling out it's roster with smaller experiences that certainly enhance a day, but don't necessarily make a trip (Agent P's World Showcase Adventure, Sorcerer's of the Magic Kingdom, Phineas and Ferb and You, etc)
• Many Disney World fans are already sick of the Next Gen stuff, and feel we're being force fed something we don't want. The argument has been, that top notch rides and shows has been the approach for 57 years, it's the approach that the competition is taking, why the sudden urge to change/reinvent yourself?

 

[RSoxNo1]

Actually there is a site I prefer much more now that the others I am on... And sadly, no it isn't WDWMAgic... The community is smaller which i think makes it better... Intelligent debates can be had, no one gets flamed for their opinions, and the site owner/staff puts a stop real quick to any nonsense... I still read here and post, but the other site is now my preference...

You aren't called a malcontent by members if you disagree with Disney or make fun of a stupid press event to announce BENCHES... You aren't called a duster if you see Disney as being perfect and can do no wrong... If someone does call a member such name they are warned right away...

I'd like to hear about this magical site... PM?

 

[flynnibus]

Ok. Thats different than being inept or being an idiot (by definition). So if people are going to accuse Disney management of being greedy to the extent they are making illegal or unethical decisions for monetary gain (i.e. Bernie Madoff) why in the world would people continue to contribute to that by going to the place?

Because not being strong enough to fight for long term gains in the face of short term losses is not about illegal activities or ethics - but rather strategy, culture, and leadership. Which is the responsibility of your executive team to create and support. Not just take the 'easy way out' all the time which ultimately destroys culture and what a business cherishes as their core values.

You don't seem to understand what leadership is in developing a business culture.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I love how he concentrates this entire reply on the Spirit and yet never addresses the fact that he called out and put down a huge amount of the people who read his blog. He even goes so far as to blame any negative comments he gets on a former employee. Hilarious.

If he's getting a negative reaction, it's because of his own words. WDW1974 is only one member of this board. Yes, he may have a higher profile and talk louder than many of us, but he's still only one person.

No, that chorus of boos you hear Jim is coming from an entire audience of people you've chosen to put down. Unfortunately, they also happen to be your former audience. If you think we should be ignored, then backatcha!

He didn't put down the "fanbois" he disagreed with them. People need to stop taking a disagreement as a personal attack. That's what illicit's the type of posts that WDW1974 made, making something personal that wasn't intended to be.

 

[flynnibus]

Ok. Thats different than being inept or being an idiot (by definition). So if people are going to accuse Disney management of being greedy to the extent they are making illegal or unethical decisions for monetary gain (i.e. Bernie Madoff) why in the world would people continue to contribute to that by going to the place?

Because not being strong enough to fight for long term gains in the face of short term losses is not about illegal activities or ethics - but rather strategy, culture, and leadership. Which is the responsibility of your executive team to create and support. Not just take the 'easy way out' all the time which ultimately destroys culture and what a business cherishes as their core values.

You don't seem to understand what leadership is in developing a business culture.

 

[njDizFan]

I'm not sure what JHs intentions where when writing this article but it did rub a lot of people the wrong way. '74 was his usual blunt self. I just think this may be interesting how this plays out. Between all parties and Steve.

I sort of hope for some more verbal fireworks but it will probably just fizzle out.

 

[HenryMystic]

I'm glad you posted this, and I think he continues to bring up good points here. Much of Jim's reputation on this site isn't particularly fair.

Look, I don't really agree with this article. There hasn't been much of substance (read, no E-tickets) added to Disney World all while Disneyland Resort and Universal Orlando is spending money on rides. It doesn't mean that additions aren't being made, but the lack of major rides is a legit concern. The choices that have been made look short sighted when we see things like maintenance slipping and crowds shifting over to Universal.

As a listener of your podcast and a fan of Jim Hill, the article seemed odd and unlike Jim.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I don't see '74 being banned for what he said. And i'd be even more surprised if the mods did so but then allowed Jim Hill to come here and post with that same attitude he exhibited in his article. Jim Hill instigated this thread and all the insults that resulted in it, one would hope people remember that '74 didn't say anything until he and the rest of us were provoked. Hill just outright insulted everyone who has any sort of objectivity in their views of WDW, and called them fanbois (which again is the wrong term as a fanboy would be someone who likes every single thing given to them without question). I think it's become rather funny (but very telling) that certain people here are so incredibly desperate to get '74 banned and silenced that they're stooping to trying to use Jim Hill (and in another thread, Screamscape) as sources to discredit him.

There are plenty of people out there who are simply insatiable, no doubt about it. But much of that would simply be nitpicking if the parks truly WERE as good if not better than ever. Not so however. It's gotten to the point where regular guests at the parks are noticing the downfall and choosing to pass Disney because better products now exist (most definitely not an outspoken minority as before). Like TalkingHead said, there's just little to nothing else going on at WDW at the moment, it makes threads like this swell because there's nothing else to talk about. Unless you find announcements about expanded seating at Fantasmic or new restrooms to be absolutely riveting and life changing news, akin to a new E-ticket or whatnot

It's incredibly comforting to hear from '74, Lee, Martin, and the rest of the REAL insiders here (the ones who actually know what they're talking about and DO have inside sources) saying that there's good change heading our way. So lets hope for more meaningful discussion in the future.

Am I missing something? This is the most defaming thing I can find in Hill's article:

But to certain Disney fanbois, none of this sort of reinvestment ever really matters. They just laser focus in on the chipped paint and/or continue to moan about how the Disneyland Resort gets all of the cool stuff, even though there's still $300 - $400 million worth of new rides, shows and attractions about to be unveiled at the Magic Kingdom. If you listen to these folks, the Fantasyland expansion (which none of us have actually experienced yet) is already in the rear view mirror. These people (if you sample various discussion boards around the Web) are already about the budget cuts that have reportedly been made to WDW's version of Radiator Springs Racers which is reportedly in the works for Disney's Hollywood Studios. Or they're chortling about how James Cameron and the Imagineers now appear to be having creative differences when it comes to the "World of Avatar" project.
My advice is just ignore people like this. If Walt Disney Parks and Resorts only built E Tickets in Orlando from here on in, these very same fanbois would still somehow find something else to complain about. That's just the way that they're wired. These people can't help themselves. All they can ever see (and all they're ever going to see) are Disney's supposed shortcomings.

Compare that to posts made by WDW1974 that have had to be removed (either by the mods or by WDW1974 himself).

Collectively, the people that Jim is describing are disappointed with the product being offered. We are also a former source of free advertising for the company that may be going away if we are continually disappointed in the product. There is truth to what Jim has said, but I think part of the issue has been a series of poor decisions.

I think the problem is that this fan community is treated like a burden by Disney when it could be treated as an asset.

I don't believe that the fan community should dictate any and all action, but when change is demanded that should be seen as an opportunity to make good.

 

[tomman710]

'74 just wants what is best for the parks, like all of us ... sometimes what's best for the parks is the hard truth, no matter how much it hurts.

He shouldn't be banned.

 

[tomman710]

I think the problem is that this fan community is treated like a burden by Disney when it could be treated as an asset.

I don't believe that the fan community should dictate any and all action, but when change is demanded that should be seen as an opportunity to make good.

Excellent point.

 

[jakeman]

Lot's of apologist in this thread...and not for Disney this time.

 

[Hakunamatata]

You don't seem to understand what leadership is in developing a business culture.

The allegations that Disney execs are intentionally downgrading the theme parks in order to pad their bonuses are not intended to be a commentary on corporate culture. Those allegations come from a position of no knowledge of how to run a theme park combined with a dissatisfaction with the direction that those parks are going.

 

[marni1971]

Well, it turned into a lively few days after all.

 

[wm49rs]

Well, it turned into a lively few days after all.

I never knew benches were so exciting....

 

[flynnibus]

The allegations that Disney execs are intentionally downgrading the theme parks in order to pad their bonuses are not intended to be a commentary on corporate culture. Those allegations come from a position of no knowledge of how to run a theme park combined with a dissatisfaction with the direction that those parks are going.

Culture is part of how a company makes money. You are completely missing what the criticism is truly about.

There is not just one way to make money. And there are varying degrees where a culture may dictate that making less profit now is preferred than maximizing profits this quarter. Be it due to how one treats employees, or how one manages the sales pipeline, or supply channels, etc. what one sets as the values of the company are essential to the long term health of it. And it's very rare that prioritizing chasing the number quarter after quarter leads to a stronger corporate culture or company.

Every company can hide problems to a certain extent by shifting expenses. But these are games, not solutions. Leadership that continues to look to the games rather than fix tough problem are bad leaders. These are the areas that great leaders are identified for.

The insults about incompetency are rooted in the leaders in ability to stop acting like the company only exists one fiscal year at a time.

If you define your business strategy around your fiscal reporting... You aren't the one in charge of your company.

If your product is 'good numbers' you are cancer to companies built around creating great products.