Disney ( World ) vs. Disney ( Land )? - Jim Hills Thoughts

[CinematicFusion]

I like Jim hills articles, always have. Had no problem with his latest. He spoke the truth about Disney and it is this....it's a corporation and it's not owned by a single individual anymore. Disney is controlled by a board of directors who are working for its shareholders. Is what it is.

No need to get upset at his opinions. Your mad at his comment that fanboys want the next big E ticket? I'm a fanboy and that's what I want. I'm not here on this board for anything else and once football season starts my fan hood will drift on to other threads about my Houston Texans!....sorry just got excited.

Anyway, he didn't come across as a Disney apologist, came across as a realist. Is what it is, Disney isn't going to change. They are a corporate entity, make no mistake about that.
It is very rare a man like Walt Disney or a George Lucas comes around and has desire and ambition to push themselves to the max of their abilities to realize a dream. We love that stuff, we want to believe that magic still exist when you walk into the Disney parks. To some extent it does, but for every employee at Disney like lee or wdw1974, there are those who are more business practical and patient. One man does not have a say anymore...remember Disney pushed his ideas until his company was on the verge of bankruptcy. Disney didn't care, he had to see fantasia come to life, had to see sleeping beauty realized. Disney was more interested in the passion of the project then the profits.
An example of that is when a young George Lucas bankrolled all his Star Wars profits into The Empire Strikes Back so he could be free to tell the story he wanted....it paid off huge and he never had to answer to anyone again. Passion was driving him then.

No one at Disney has that type of sway or power, not even Lasseter. In the end,we must look at Disney with the eyes of a realist. It's a corporation who business is selling dreams,be it through movies, housing projects, resorts, cruise liners and yes...theme parks.

We will see another e ticket, and it will be coming to DHS next. But we must be patient. Patiently waiting for the next e-ticket, and patiently waiting for the next Walt Disney.

 

[muteki]

Real WDW F&B survey they have been doing most of the year: hello I'm with Wdw research may I ask you if you purchased any food or beverage in the park today? "no" ok thanks for your time.

Ummm missing something important here? Care to hear why I didn't? They are leaving a significant number of potential negative responses from the results.

And if guest scores affect bonuses, well, the survey has just been manipulated to deliver a higher bonus percentage.

I think the people on here who think the P n' L isn't being manipulated to pay out higher bonuses work third shift at the Circle K.

Wow. The ones I have filled out I have been taken to a individual computer where I can go through the survey on my own. You could definitely tell that what questions were dependent on what answers you gave in previous questions. They covered a wide range of topics though, chances of all of them not being applicable to my visit were unlikely. This was a year ago the last time I did this, maybe it has changed since then.

 

[Clamman73]

See what a little road widening can do...

 

[Clever Name]

Wow. The ones I have filled out I have been taken to a individual computer where I can go through the survey on my own. You could definitely tell that what questions were dependent on what answers you gave in previous questions. They covered a wide range of topics though, chances of all of them not being applicable to my visit were unlikely. This was a year ago the last time I did this, maybe it has changed since then.

Same experience on my end as well. Some of the surveys take a considerable amount of time to complete.

 

[flynnibus]

Does anyone know if the cup issue was really cost-cutting? Or could inventory have run out just before the introduction of a new design?

Even if it were just an inventory gap issue it shows the dollar over show mentality that they aren't willing to spend to fix the gap. Never mind the inventory failure that caused the gap to start. Either way there is a way to maintain the show - they chose not to.

 

[M.rudolf]

As someone who gets no stuff from Disney, I can speak to my personal battle to stay even-keeled (or what I hope comes across as even-keeled).

Does envy creep into the equation when I see bloggers, podcasters, and others with far less experience than me reporting on Disney get press access, interview opportunities, ability to take photos on rides? Is there envy when I see them sail away on the newest Disney Cruise Line ship or stay for 3-4 nights in a Disney hotel, all expenses paid?

I'd be lying (and not human) if I said the thought didn't flit across my consciousness. I've been at this citizen-journalist thing since 1999 and have a substantial readership, but Disney doesn't invite me to such events. Is it because I'm honest? Or because I'm critical, sometimes bitingly so? I ask myself this sometimes. Often it provides reassurance. Maybe it's a GOOD thing that I don't get invited--it would probably muzzle my honesty, and I prefer to be honest.

Does not being invited make me more bitter, more cynical, more critical? It's hard to answer that with complete objectivity because, well, I'm me. And who can be fully objective about oneself? That said, I do recognize the danger of this occurring and so I fight as hard as I can against it. This is one reason I'm saying all of this in public via this very post. I want others to help "keep me honest." It's why I always try to be on the discussion boards or social media where I can get feedback.

And even internally, I fight to keep myself from turning bitter or critical. I try to point out positive things too as a result. Good old Spirit hammers on me sometimes that I'm artificially making WDW sound more balanced than it really is, and I could do more good by turning more negative. Well, maybe. But turning negative would make me look like a crusty outsider with no media access.

So yes, while the envy does flit across my consciousness, I do my best to flick it away as quickly as I can. That gets easier when I remember that most press events occur midweek during the day, and I have a day job that has nothing to do with the Disney universe. That's where my priority lays (after my family, friends, and other personal life).

Does it make me unnaturally critical? I suppose it might from time to time. But I hope you'll tell me whenever that happens, so I can right the ship again.

I really love reading your articles. If you are a journalist, be a journalist report the facts whether they be good,bad or neither report them. Journalistic integrity Is now hard to find. If you report facts it's very hard to be negative or positive.Avoid spin and everything else will take care of itself. Remember the people receiving all the freebies aren't journalists, they're bloggers and there is a difference.

 

[Brutus Buckeye]

I've read nearly every post and I have a few thoughts to add. I have read many articles by Jim Hill and often consider the majority of his work fair. However, this current piece is beyond anything I have ever seen written. After looking up the history of Jim Hill, I am even more confused by his motivation or necessity to post such a patently biased and frankly offensive article.

Wasn't Jim Hill the leader of the Remove Eisner Uprising, receiving calls from Roy Disney? For someone who was so brave and so loyal to quality and company that he would lead the charge to remove an ineffective management to them turn around and defend what some have called poor management and even ineffective is sort of shocking.

I am shocked by his audacity to attack his audience. I am shocked by his inability to weigh the proportions of scale between the US Disney Properties. I am dismayed that someone that once was so committed to the product he risked his public reputation to defend it turn around and instead defend those who have been accused of mismanagement.

All-in-all. If WDW is being mismanaged, it is not reaching the public arena. And with the like of Jim Hill (isn't he contracting with the HuffingtonPost), the information may not get out there. Praise the roads. Praise finishing a hotel starter half a decade ago. Praise the expansion which has taken as long as it took to build WDW originally. Praise the construction of real estate and time shares. Praise the expansion of seating for a 14 yr old experience. He finds praise in things that should be routine. Does he applaud his teenage children when they use the restroom, well they didn't pee on the floor -- so it must be positive? Does he applaud the drivers who don't run red lights? Praising mediocrity is exactly that, rewarding things that should be done for no praise at all but should be done because they are necessary.

WDW is a vast kingdom of hotels and parks, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised by a maintenance cost upwards of several hundred million annually. However with record attendance and profits, the quality and timeliness of maintenance should be reflective. If the demand for the product has increased, shouldn't maintenance reflect those increases?

Maybe I'm naive. Maybe I'm not thinking like Jim Hill. But for one thing, I am able to grasp a picture and look at it for it pluses and its faults. At this point, Jim Hill is not.

 

[flynnibus]

Fact.

Disney World is seen as this horrible and cheaply maintained vacation destination by a small, small minority thats less than one percent of all people who go to the parks. The people who complain seriously just have too much time on their hands.

Possibly but you can't ignore the fact attendance has been lethargic at best. They are not increasing revenues or attendance. They are maintaining what little curve is left with cuts and heavy discounts. Those are facts


Fact.

Most executives in power positions get paid in company stock for their bonuses, not cash. They get paid in stock because the intention is for that person to work harder to make that stock more valuable. While I don't personally know what happens in the Disney corporation, I would venture a ignorant guess thats how they do business. So to ridiculously think TDO is lighing cigars with unspent mantainence budget is humorous.

Executives have both short term and long term incentive programs. Most long term programs at that level are simply grants - do they don't need the stock to appreciate to make it valuable. It's a gift that generally has a vesting date.

Employees get short term bonuses too - fact. Considering executive compensation review is part of disney's fillings if you want to versed in the facts you should try reading them sometime

 

[puntagordabob]

You will not spend the same amount of cash to fix up 1 house as you would 2.
So to say they spread the same amount of cash over a much larger amount of land is a stupid argument. For size reason WDW should have 3-4 times the amount of cash spent then DL. WDW makes much more money than DL so they should invest more not the same.

Each property at WDW should be looked at as if the others were not there. Not building any major rides in EP, HS and AK except for every 3-4 years is sick.

To be honest this posted really says all that really needs to be said on this subject.

 

[lazyboy97o]

He didn't put down the "fanbois" he disagreed with them. People need to stop taking a disagreement as a personal attack. That's what illicit's the type of posts that WDW1974 made, making something personal that wasn't intended to be.

As somebody who has read and listened to Jim Hill for number of years, these types of articles have become more frequent over the years. The problem is his tone throughout is that of a lecture. He goes off on these tangets as though we're just a bunch of angry dolts. He may not be as blunt in his wording, but the message is read load and clear, thus the response we are seeing.

What I get tired of is the accusation that because TDO has done something that is different that it is being done completely for the motive of unethical profiteering.

It is not about anything illegal or necessarily unethical. The bonuses tend to be tied to financial performance. The executives have a choice, either take a risk on something and possibly underperform resulting in no or less bonus or make cuts and squeeze the products and deliver the desired financials and reap the monetary rewards.

The lower level individuals are not entirely to blame, as the entire business model has shifted. In the past, Walt Disney World was measured as a whole. Today Walt Disney World is not so much a business unit as it is a descriptor of hundreds, if not thousands, of little business units owned by Disney in central Florida. The profit of each little square foot is measured. This not only kills off spaces that were once considered for show (Center Street, Main Street Cinema, Antique Store, etc.) but also places each of these small units in competition with each other. The race is towards the bottom as each tries to meet financial expectations from above while also outdoing the competing units.

The biggest problem throughout Team Disney Orlando is the lack of anybody willing to fight. That's why Burbank had to step in and initiate Fantasyland, nobody wanted to rock the boat and push for a needed expansion. Its why refurbishments get scaled down, because instead of fighting for the product, the fight is for a better looking financial report.

He spoke the truth about Disney and it is this....it's a corporation and it's not owned by a single individual anymore. Disney is controlled by a board of directors who are working for its shareholders. Is what it is.

This is complete and utter nonsense. I know it has become a bit cliché, but Apple stock is currently over $600, making it the largest company by market capitalization. The company also sits on a massive pile of cash. All built not on looking at each quarter, but on the big picture. The Apple business model is very similar to the old Walt Disney World model in which the performance of the whole is the focus, not the small components. It drives financial analysts nuts that they typically get numbers just for Apple, not each segment of the company, but it clearly works. It was also working just fine for Disneyland and Walt Disney World, enough so that even at the Company's worst before Eisner, it was the theme parks keeping the Company afloat.

Even if it were just an inventory gap issue it shows the dollar over show mentality that they aren't willing to spend to fix the gap. Never mind the inventory failure that caused the gap to start. Either way there is a way to maintain the show - they chose not to.

THIS. Disney has the resources and experience to prevent these sort of inventory gaps. I also personally find it troubling as I have worked for a few small, local restaurants that went under and looking back it was clear when the financial trouble really began when we started having gaps in our inventory.

 

[Taylor]

I'm late here what did I miss?

 

[GoofGoof]

Possibly but you can't ignore the fact attendance has been lethargic at best. They are not increasing revenues or attendance. They are maintaining what little curve is left with cuts and heavy discounts. Those are facts


Fact.

The only problem with the attendance argument is that almost all of the most vocal critics on here of the current state of the parks still go on a regular basis. These are the hard core dedicated fans who are disheartened, but still go. The so called "average tourist" in no way goes to WDW and notices burned out light bulbs or missing AAs on Splash. They are caught up in being on vacation at WDW. I was one of them before I started coming here. I never really noticed anything wrong.

In my opinion, the cuts at WDW have a lot less to do with flat attendance than the alternative options available and economic conditions. With Universal adding Potter they took away some guests. The additional cruise ships take actual guests from WDW. There are also plenty of vacation options outside of WDW too. The economy has a big impact as well. Airfare is expensive so people may go somewhere more local instead of flying to FL or if they go they go for less time. Europe took a big hit recently and WDW draws a material amount of guests from Europe. WDW is a very expensive vacation and many people are cutting back. This is only part of the equation. I know Universal has seen sharp increases in attendance despite the economy, but they essentially added a major addition to a struggling park. The argument can certainly be made that had WDW spent like Universal on new areas and attractions that attendance would not be flat. I just don't think the cost cutting and declines in maintenance at WDW have as much of an impact on attendance as people think.

 

[marni1971]

Well, that was a light hearted break in proceedings. Very funny.

 

[KevinYee]

Kevin you should study the efforts of Leo laporte to build his twit network. To stay objective he has insisted on staying independent. But overtime to get things to the level he wanted he turned to ads which he said he wasn't going to do.. But in doing so established standards for how they would do ads and only take ads for products they would individually promote anyways. So he has worked in a revenue model that has not compromised his independence.

Alas his product model is different than yours, as well as his market and connections.. But I just wanted to say 'you are not Alone' and in the tech industry especially others have been able to pull together formulas that work for them.

I would say you too are being squeezed by the competition in the space. You can't touch the 'news' reporting of the other sites.. You don't have the footprint in the parks to report on the slow changes and apparently not the inside angle for the breaking news. People were expecting you to be the east coast rumor mill being in Al's shadow on his site.. But that really isn't cutting edge either anymore. Frankly, you aren't much as the news breaker anymore. Bringing this back to the twit example.. He has built his main product around industry commentary and insight.. By gathering industry experts from the different disciplines.

Frankly my following of you personally has dropped off... Because I don't know what I come to you to get...

I do have a revenue model separate from news and blogging (my books), so that part is kind of analogous to your example of Leo.

I agree that I'm not about breaking news and I've never been about insider access--I would say that my main objective is to provide commentary as a longterm observer (and to some lesser extent, cultural commentary occasionally informed by critical thinkers outside the Disney realm). It's a formula that sometimes works, though your feedback here (which I appreciate!) reminds me I need to stay relevant to different audiences. It's helpful to hear that I need to stay more focused on my strengths.

I do agree that the Internet has changed and continues to evolve. Mini-empires come from excellent photography (Bricker) or math-backed trip planning (Testa) that exploit social networks in brilliant ways. A blogger can't just write commentary as if it's 1999.

 

[DisneyFan 2000]

I just don't think the cost cutting and declines in maintenance at WDW have as much of an impact on attendance as people think.

You're right, but again only looking at short-term impact. At some point, on either a conscious level or a sub-conscious level people will starting asking, why am I paying for a premium vacation when things are obviously less than amazing? When guests of a previous era will rave about how awesome their time was at WDW and the new guests arrive, only to think the experience was "over-hyped" then things start to fall apart. Obviously they won't know what came before, but they can reach their own conclusion that the place just isn't reaching its own level of reputation.

 

[CinematicFusion]

The only problem with the attendance argument is that almost all of the most vocal critics on here of the current state of the parks still go on a regular basis. These are the hard core dedicated fans who are disheartened, but still go. The so called "average tourist" in no way goes to WDW and notices burned out light bulbs or missing AAs on Splash. They are caught up in being on vacation at WDW. I was one of them before I started coming here. I never really noticed anything wrong.

In my opinion, the cuts at WDW have a lot less to do with flat attendance than the alternative options available and economic conditions. With Universal adding Potter they took away some guests. The additional cruise ships take actual guests from WDW. There are also plenty of vacation options outside of WDW too. The economy has a big impact as well. Airfare is expensive so people may go somewhere more local instead of flying to FL or if they go they go for less time. Europe took a big hit recently and WDW draws a material amount of guests from Europe. WDW is a very expensive vacation and many people are cutting back. This is only part of the equation. I know Universal has seen sharp increases in attendance despite the economy, but they essentially added a major addition to a struggling park. The argument can certainly be made that had WDW spent like Universal on new areas and attractions that attendance would not be flat. I just don't think the cost cutting and declines in maintenance at WDW have as much of an impact on attendance as people think.

Good points. Universal has had sharp increase but they were attendance numbers weren't good to begin with.
What's the saturation point on attendence at Disney world for a park. Magic kingdom is at 17 million visitors...how much higher can they go? Guess we find out with FLE. What is the most visitors magic kingdom has had in a year before?

I guess theoretically AK and DHS could hit the exact number of MK visitors.
Attendence numbers for Disney world are fantastic, could always be improved upon but I would love to see top all time yearly visitors for each park and all time average yearly visitors for each park.

What is the saturation point. How much of an audience is out there to cast a net over and drag into the parks?

 

[ParentsOf4]

WDW is a very expensive vacation and many people are cutting back.

That's a big part of the problem. WDW used to be a reasonably priced vacation. In 1983 (the year before Eisner took charge and decided ticket prices were too low), a 6-day hopper ticket was $60, including sales tax. That ticket did not expire which means you could use it for multiple vacations. Adjusted for inflation, that's $138 today. Today, a 6-day hopper with no expiration & tax is $556.

I understand that we also have DHS & DAK today. However, both are generally viewed as the most incomplete WDW theme parks. It's the older theme parks (i.e. MK and Epcot) that are viewed as better. On the basis of money alone, I'd much rather spend $138 for 6 days at MK, Epcot, and River Country than $556 for 6 days at the current theme parks. That's a price difference of $418! Adjusted for inflation, I could purchase 4 tickets in 1983 for the price of 1 ticket in 2012.

In 1983, WDW had just added EPCOT and Disney-MGM Studios (1989) was only 6 years away. In the 1980s, WDW was adding entire theme parks and charging one quarter of the price for admission.

In 2012, we have a rethemed Fantasyland nearing completion (which I think will be an improvement over the existing one), Avatarland in 4-to-5 years, and hopefully an E-ticket attraction going into DHS in the next few years. All of these are good things but they pale in comparison to what WDW did in the 1980s and 1990s and at considerably less cost to the WDW guest.

In his desperate rush to defend TDO, Jim Hill seems to have forgotten the history of WDW.

 

[flynnibus]

The only problem with the attendance argument is that almost all of the most vocal critics on here of the current state of the parks still go on a regular basis. These are the hard core dedicated fans who are disheartened, but still go. The so called "average tourist" in no way goes to WDW and notices burned out light bulbs or missing AAs on Splash. They are caught up in being on vacation at WDW. I was one of them before I started coming here. I never really noticed anything wrong.

The parks attendance is floated by that 'average joe'. I didn't say cuts are what are keeping them away, but you can't deny attendance is weak. The point was facts are facts right? And attendance is flat to weak while other parks have grown their user base and grown attendance. Regardless of 'why' - that is something that isn't up for debate. So there is 'something' impacting wdw and typically cutting product is not how you turn around weak interest.

It's what you do to weather a storm and wait for the sun to come back out. But the ability of other Disney parks and competitors to increase their attendance is showing wdw is weaker than others.

 

[Map7711]

Other posters have said this-WDW is the cash cow that enables DL to make those investments. WDW brings in sooooo much more revenue than DL it pales in comparison. WDW should have 3-4 times more invested in the parks then DL. To compare dollars to dollars is just stupid. DL is a smaller park with smaller revenue with less attendance overall. It should get LESS investment not equal investment. Period. Around 47 million attendance in 2011 at WDW at all 4 parks with a good amount who stay on property. Around 20 million attendance at DL with a vast majority are locals or are staying off property. I mean, come on.

 

[The Mom]

Wow, there's a good 30 minutes of my life that I'll never get back. And I have fewer minutes left than most of you.

A lot of insults and OT posts mixed in with a pretty good discussion. But, since people seem incapable of being polite, and keeping the discussion here, instead of insulting those who have a differing opinion, or dragging in the websites and names of people who did not ever ask to become involved, it's time to say goodnight. There is already another ongoing discussion elsewhere for those of you who just have to get one more shot in.