Bad news from our friends at MiceAge...

[lazyboy97o]

You’ll get little argument from me that WWOHP’s substance was modest.

The Wizarding World of Harry Potter demonstrates what Disney defined in the Disney Difference, that the sum total is greater than the individual parts. It's not just ornament or merchandise, but everything meticulously integrated to create something extraordinary.

 

[doctornick]

@Jason_Garcia is tossing around $800M for avatar & nighttime improvements. That seems to be a s*** ton of money for what I'm seeing

Agreed. I would like to think that other stuff is included (like the Lion King dark ride that Martin mentioned) in that proce.

Though I would imagine that properly "doing" Pandora will be quite costly with replicating the effects of bioluminescent plants and AA animals.

 

[WDW1974]

Spirit (@WDW1974), arguably the most reliable poster on here, essentially addressed this a month ago. He suggested Dusty at al. at Michchat are not misinformed per se, but have jumped to an incorrect conclusion. He went on to state that Star Wars is happening (yes, at DHS too), but it is being delayed as material from episode 7 may be included in the parks. The delay may be for other reasons as well, but Star Wars is in the works. Until I hear otherwise from Spirit, I'm going to believe his info.

Thanks.

Nothing has happened on the Star Wars front beyond them waiting for a close to final script on the new film, which will have a much larger role for the old-timers than in Arndt's original version. That product will affect whatever goes into DL and, yes, TPFKaTD-MGMS.

Miceage's information has become much more iffy with Todd and Norm and an unnamed other party writing that column. You want some good info there? Read what they are putting up about Sea World and Blackfish. They should be lauded for that ... and the mainstream media should be writing stories on that ... not turkey leg PR pieces or whatever Garcia is penning these days.

 

[WDW1974]

The Wizarding World of Harry Potter demonstrates what Disney defined in the Disney Difference, that the sum total is greater than the individual parts. It's not just ornament or merchandise, but everything meticulously integrated to create something extraordinary.

Even in Europe, @lazyboy97o continues to make sense.

 

[Groxtak]

Thanks.

Nothing has happened on the Star Wars front beyond them waiting for a close to final script on the new film, which will have a much larger role for the old-timers than in Arndt's original version. That product will affect whatever goes into DL and, yes, TPFKaTD-MGMS.

Miceage's information has become much more iffy with Todd and Norm and an unnamed other party writing that column. You want some good info there? Read what they are putting up about Sea World and Blackfish. They should be lauded for that ... and the mainstream media should be writing stories on that ... not turkey leg PR pieces or whatever Garcia is penning these days.

Good to see you back! This is PeterAlt... Don't ask why I'm using this ID... Long story...

Any way, what's your take on the fact that Miceage talks about Soaring and BTMRR getting upgrades. It mentions nothing for the Florida versions. Will we get the upgrades too?

 

[Groxtak]

@Jason_Garcia is tossing around $800M for avatar & nighttime improvements. That seems to be a s*** ton of money for what I'm seeing

They've increased the budget? It was originally targeted at $500 million. I kind of figured they would, if they wanted Cameron to stay onboard. Their choices would be to cancel the project or give in to Cameron. Canceling would have been a nightmare, PR wise. I just hope the increased budget doesn't come in the price of a delayed or scaled-back (or cancelled) Star Wars project...

I'm happy Cameron got his way on this, though.

 

[Groxtak]

You’ll get little argument from me that WWOHP’s substance was modest.

So was Terror or Terror (TOT) in 1994. Yet TOT was (and still is) an amazing theme park experience.

In many ways, 1994 represents the pinnacle of WDW. DHS was still new, DAK was in the planning stages, and WDW had just opened the most remarkable attraction since its early days. A water park had opened and another one was on the way. (I love WDW’s water parks, BTW.) Pleasure Island was there for adults who wanted to have some fun while a complete makeover of Downtown Disney was in the works.

Go back 20 years and almost no one was bashing Disney. It truly felt like “the place where dreams come true”. The pixie dust was pretty thick in those days.

No matter what you or I might think of the substance behind WWOHP, the fundamental reality is that WWOHP was phenomenal critical and economic success. Reviews were overwhelmingly positive and the expansion had a transforming effect on Universal’s cash flow.

It’s not always how much you spend; it’s how wisely you spend it.

Many have been critical of the New Fantasyland for having turned an entire area of the Magic Kingdom into one big kiddie park. Many have been critical of MyMagic+ for being a huge money grab approved by those with no appreciation of the theme park experience. Many have been critical of Pandora for being a poor choice of IP. And, of course, Disney takes takes an inordinate number of years to get these projects done.

Conversely, Universal is on a roll.

WWOHP was an unbelievable success. Both Minions Mayhem and Transformers were positively received. All 3 were relatively inexpensive. And Diagon Alley promises to be the most amazing addition to a theme park since WWOHP.

Disney continues to invest poorly while Universal invests wisely.

As much as we love to criticize TDO, we must remember that WDW still has many original attractions over DLR and some better variants of the classics. This includes Splash Mountain, TZToT, Haunted Mansion, and unique originals such as Expedition Everest. My point is, there's still hope. If they're smart, they can build on the strengths I've mentioned and leapfrog ahead. Avatar is a good starting point.

 

[Groxtak]

WDW has been a one-stop vacation destination for decades. Pushed by Sid Bass, Disney CEO Michael Eisner started investing heavily in hotels and timeshares at WDW. The theme parks built under Eisner were needed in order to fill WDW's current 34,000 rooms (including the Swan, Dolphin, and Downtown Disney hotels).

There's a reason WDW has added almost 11,000 rooms since DAK opened in 1998 without a major theme park expansion; hotels and timeshares are where the big profits are.

Universal had to have theme park successes just to be able to ante into the bigger hotel game that WDW has been playing for decades, that Disney tried to up the stakes on when it launched the NextGen initiative. WWOHP, Minion Mayhem, Transformers, and Diagon Alley finally have people thinking about Universal as an actual vacation destination. Now's the time for Universal to start adding hotels and cash in.

Long term, what happens at Universal and WDW will most likely be cyclical.

At some point, WDW will realize it needs to add at its theme parks in order to justify more hotels while Universal will start to coast and cash in on its investments in its theme parks. However, we are years away from that point.

To fans, attractions and attendance are sexy.

To business people, profits are sexy.

And the profits are in vacation hotels and timeshares.

You must have read the same book I did on the subject! Your posts match my memory of that book, which I forgot the name of, but it talks in length about Sid Bass and how Eisner went out of his way to make that stockholder happy, which really impressed Bass.

 

[asianway]

They've increased the budget? It was originally targeted at $500 million. I kind of figured they would, if they wanted Cameron to stay onboard. Their choices would be to cancel the project or give in to Cameron. Canceling would have been a nightmare, PR wise. I just hope the increased budget doesn't come in the price of a delayed or scaled-back (or cancelled) Star Wars project...

I'm happy Cameron got his way on this, though.

Ignore *3

 

[rioriz]

My local Six Flags charges $55 for a season pass.

Universal charges $280 for an out-of-state Annual Pass.

WDW charges $609.

Disney Parks & Resort segment realized over $2.2B in profit in 2013.

Just imagine what a fraction of that $2.2B could buy in attractions. The entire WWOHP was built for $280M.

With spending spread out over years, the New Fantasyland costs about $450M while containing 2 restaurants, a couple of meet-and-greets, a retread omnimover attraction from DLR, and one coaster targeted for young children.

Disney simply chooses not to spend profits on exciting new attractions at WDW, and when they do spend, they have a track record in recent years of not reaping value for their investment.

There once was a time when a less massive Disney corporation spent lavishly on bringing a constant stream of exciting new attractions to WDW. Today's Disney management has contempt for theme park guests. Ticket prices are up 25% in 3 years while the current era represents the longest period ever of attraction stagnation at WDW.

I am not discounting the above at least the three local parks around me (Kings Island, Cedar Point, Six Flags GA) are no match for Disney when it comes to park beautification, maintenance, upkeep, theming, etc... The comparison of local parks to Disney is not a good one to make...Apples and Oranges...stick with the Uni comparisons...

 

[Wikkler]

I wonder what this would mean for WDW and a night time parade. Something new, something borrowed, or will we all be blue

FoF.

 

[Groxtak]

You simply don't get it.

It isn't about how many visitors each draws – it's about how many visitors Uni and the surrounding attractions TAKE AWAY.

Actually, to me, it's more about share of market share growth. Let's say, in one year a million more people decide to vacation in Central Florida. Of the million people, let's say 700,000 go to Universal, 200,000 go to WDW, and 100,000 go to Sea World. All three companies can report record attendance that year. Disney would still be able to report highest attendance of the three. The truth is, though, Universal would have the highest rate of growth. Their share of the growth in the local market far exceeds WDW share of that growth. So, talk of Disney having high attendance numbers, or total attendance numbers compared to the local competition is meaningless and is purely a spin on what is actually very bad news.

In the above example, if Universal holds their share of local market growth, it would be just a matter of time before their total attendance numbers actually exceed Disney's attendance numbers.

 

[Nubs70]

I am not discounting the above at least the three local parks around me (Kings Island, Cedar Point, Six Flags GA) are no match for Disney when it comes to park beautification, maintenance, upkeep, theming, etc... The comparison of local parks to Disney is not a good one to make...Apples and Oranges...stick with the Uni comparisons...

Cedar Point is not in the same class as Disney. However, if you want absolutely kick coasters, nothing beats Cedar Point. Not much theming involved at CP but they put in new,rides almost every year. CP increases their value proposition every year.

 

[pax_65]

Everybody seems to want to compare Disney to something - Universal, Six Flags, whatever. I compare Disney to what it used to be - Disney 2013 vs Disney 1998.

 

[marni1971]

Everybody seems to want to compare Disney to something - Universal, Six Flags, whatever. I compare Disney to what it used to be - Disney 2013 vs Disney 1998.

Amen.

Others could do with thinking like this. Or maybe the mist obscuring it is a bit too thick.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Everybody seems to want to compare Disney to something - Universal, Six Flags, whatever. I compare Disney to what it used to be - Disney 2013 vs Disney 1998.

The problem with trying to compare WDW with its past is that for those who remember what WDW was like in the 1990s, no words are needed. For those who don't, no words will suffice.

 

[asianway]

The problem with trying to compare WDW with its past is that for those who remember what WDW was like in the 1990s, no words are needed. For those who don't, no words will suffice.

Can you get this on a tshirt, stat?

 

[SirLink]

Amen.

Others could do with thinking like this. Or maybe the mist obscuring it is a bit too thick.

Its a bit hard when Uni is acting like old Disney used too. Also it is an easier comparison in terms of cleanliness, merchandise, napkins, etc. for newer fans of the Parks.

 

[doctornick]

Nothing has happened on the Star Wars front beyond them waiting for a close to final script on the new film, which will have a much larger role for the old-timers than in Arndt's original version. That product will affect whatever goes into DL and, yes, TPFKaTD-MGMS.

Glad to hear this.

I do think it would be odd if P&R put a bunch of money into developing Star Wars stuff for DLR, but did not use any of it for DHS. Especially given how DHS needs the help and everyone at Disney knows it.

 

[JimboJones123]

Cedar Point is not in the same class as Disney. However, if you want absolutely kick coasters, nothing beats Cedar Point. Not much theming involved at CP but they put in new,rides almost every year. CP increases their value proposition every year.

Gatekeeper is a blast.