A Spirited Perfect Ten

[WDW1974]

IMO it's not like an actual cover up, it's generally not having the resources to report the story.

Also WHO LEAKS THEIR WHOLE RIDE?!?!?

Yeah. Who does that?

Maybe someone who has a proverbial gun pointed at their head?

 

[bhg469]

So, a wsj journalist has picked the brains of some insiders on a story with REAL financial implications and instead of moving forward, he sells out for a case of Mickey Bars? This, in itself, speaks volumes.

Maybe Ricky and Lou aren't the biggest sellouts anymore?!

 

[WDW1974]

I'll try. I will to sum up as best I can. (And If I'm wrong, @WDW1974 please correct me). That is a Very Valid question as well, IMO.

It all has to do with the overall health and future of the company.

First, China is the emerging middle-class of the world. Think post-war America and the rise of the middle class. They are the future growth of Disney, including P&R. Disney needs to get into that market. Disney needs China, sadly.

So why should we care? Because for the past 20 years, instead of continuing to reinvest in Florida, they've had to bail out DLP. HKDL needed an expansion to drive attendance much sooner than expected. That can't continue to happen in every foreign market Disney goes into.

So its a matter of entering the market correctly, being welcomed with open arms and as equals and as partners. Thats not happening on either side. There's a tit-for-tat game going on, with Shendi/CCP giving intentional slights to Disney while Disney is trying to enter Shanghai with typical American/Wall Street Arrogance and (likely unconsciously) insulting their business partners.

For Example, having a parade of characters through Shanghai for the opening of a Disney Store is pretty much viewed in the same way as General Patton entering Palermo. Its not going to go over well. Because that is simply not how things are done in China. So in retaliation for that, Iger is basically shown no respect and is kept out of the picture. And back and forth it goes. Disney traditionally behaves like the 800 pound gorilla in the room and they simply have no idea what to do with the dragon.

So again, why should we care? Because instead of being a true partnership, Disney isn't in control at all and they're $5.4B in. They're not in control and it is not a partnership because of how they're going about things. Its not a good start AT ALL.

Why was getting Disney Channel in China a big deal for Eisner? (Keep in mind, 15+ years ago) To introduce Disney to the kids and to start marketing to them while they're young. China said no, so Eisner went to Hong Kong. Disney Channel is still not on in China but Iger is hell bent on making this work.

So right now? You have an unfriendly business partner and an audience that doesn't know much about Disney, with little control of the project and you're $5.4 in.

Seriously hope that helps....

Thanks. While I would have phrased it a bit differently, I think you largely explained some of the bigger points.

If people have a specific question, then I'll answer. But I'm not doing huge posts like you just did ... they're already here. Besides, I guess I should pay attention to this game ... even though I don't care about it much.

 

[sshindel]

I don't know why you should care. I know why I do and I've expressed that. ... I guess on the simplest level if Disney's entry to China is problematic or worse, it WILL have a negative impact on so many things you do care about like WDW.

Remember that 2007-08 economic collapse? You know the one that wiped out most of our middle class and sent them into the working class category, no matter what they call themselves? That collapse stopped many major projects for WDW. They were about to happen. And then they didn't. They never have since. And DCA? I've been told by people at extremely high levels that if the BoD had waited six more months to fund it, that it never would have happened. Circumstances affect things. ... Big circumstances in China will profoundly affect and reverberate in all facets of the company. Do you have specific questions?

I don't have specific questions right now. And I know you've talked about more than that, but it is a prevailing theme.
I'll have some time next week when I'm traveling to go back and dig into your posts and see if there are things I have questions about. I too have been busy recently, more work related than personal, and there are times this thread moves at the speed of pre-FP+ rope drop to TSMM. I can't quite ask more than has been already succinctly summed up to me because I'm too lazy to look up details for myself. The summary is great for now.

 

[Nubs70]

Us faux-hipsters vacation with our children too!

I think you may be able to buy faux neck beards at the hat shop at DtD.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Thanks. While I would have phrased it a bit differently, I think you largely explained some of the bigger points.

If people have a specific question, then I'll answer. But I'm not doing huge posts like you just did ... they're already here. Besides, I guess I should pay attention to this game ... even though I don't care about it much.

I'm just trying to answer the casual reader's "Why Should We Care?"

You're totally doing all the heavy lifting, I'm just trying to sum up and keep people from dismissing it out of hand. Because it's a big story and an important story, business wise.

I just can't believe Zenia gave away the entire ride. Thats just unfathomable and has never happened in my memory, especially a year out from opening. Still a year out.

 

[bhg469]

ohh gotcha!

he went postal again?

I assume so, I must have missed it but it's not surprising. He's never going to stop.

 

[WDW1974]

Even here in the U.S. there are many parks where ownership and management are different organizations with the result being that management doesn't call the big shots. On paper Disneyland Paris was the same way (except for the weirdness of an SCA). Hong Kong is the same way, and Hong Kong is now acting on their ownership. You keep making a big deal about Disney not getting to repeat history and pretend to be the majority owner when anyone paying attention in 2005 knew this would be the case.

All three situations were/are different. You can't compare going into China's Mainland with Paris or even a HK deal hammered out largely when it was a British colony. And Disney has largely called the shots on DLP and now has total control for all intents after the latest restructuring. The resort is theirs and they are making all the calls. HK, despite being a minority owner, was largely Disney calling the shots from pre-build well into its first years. Only when it was obvious that the company had lied (are you going to dispute the promising one thing and building another deal?) did the SAR start to become aggressive with Disney. And that was local. That wasn't coming from the Communist Party HQ in Beijing.

Shanghai is a different animal entirely. I may have known that. You may have known that. But apparently Bob and his company failed to get the memo (serves them right for using Apple crap!)

 

[Skyway]

Because he has a serious mental illness? Because his parents coddled him and moved him to Celebration to be closer to his obsession? ... Or because Disney knows that many of its most zealous fans and defenders and lifestylers and BRAND advocates are a few almond trees shy of an orchard?
.

There are some truly uncomfortable photos on his Instagram account posted a few weeks ago showing him hugging and trying to kiss some face character women dressed as flowers.

You can see the muscles in their arms flexed as they try to hold him at bay. The looks on their faces speak volumes.

While I'm sure those CMs undergo sensitivity training to deal with special needs guests, it seems a bit unfair that their employer would repeatedly expose them and other CMs to such behavior.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

While I'm sure those CMs undergo sensitivity training to deal with special needs guests, it seems a bit unfair that their employer would repeatedly expose them and other CMs to such behavior.

Not saying they're really capable of handling all types of guests, but isn't that partially why they have handlers/attendants?

 

[lazyboy97o]

All three situations were/are different. You can't compare going into China's Mainland with Paris or even a HK deal hammered out largely when it was a British colony. And Disney has largely called the shots on DLP and now has total control for all intents after the latest restructuring. The resort is theirs and they are making all the calls. HK, despite being a minority owner, was largely Disney calling the shots from pre-build well into its first years. Only when it was obvious that the company had lied (are you going to dispute the promising one thing and building another deal?) did the SAR start to become aggressive with Disney. And that was local. That wasn't coming from the Communist Party HQ in Beijing.

Shanghai is a different animal entirely. I may have known that. You may have known that. But apparently Bob and his company failed to get the memo (serves them right for using Apple crap!)

Except that you can't put together a consistent narrative of how they didn't know. You keep waffling back and forth between long standing cultural issues just being blindly followed to very recent shoving matches following something. The only consistent has been your hypocrisy regarding the place of other mediums in relation to themed entertainment.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Not saying they're really capable of handling all types of guests, but isn't that partially why they have handlers/attendants?

In theory, yes. But are the coordinators and managers going to back the cast members in a situation like that?

 

[AEfx]

No I think at this point there's a lot of Things that are pointing to some serious behind the scenes drama going on here.

When was the last time you saw such a toxic business relationship before business even started?

Dave, I totally hear you - but as of now, the only evidence we have that this serious drama is going on is an anonymous message board posting which two basic questions have remained unanswered, even when asked by those more in the good graces of said poster.

1. Was that a final, official itinerary that was posted?

2. The majority of the "smoking gun" post was commentary about what happened from an unknown point of view - was it a reporter? a member of Disney's staff? a bus driver?

2a. And who translated it? As anyone who has read a Chinese-translated-into-English user manual can tell you, Mandarin to English is highly subjective as so many words do not have true equivalents.

That's it. That's all we are going on. And answering those simple questions would have changed a lot of how this has all played out.

Journalistic integrity should always be doubted, and often with good reason - given two choices, one of whom is an anonymous message board poster who has full out admitted to being on a "shadow" campaign against the subject, and one of whom is a reporter who listened to said material and likely you know, actually investigated the source - I find it really naive to automatically assume that this is some conspiracy and this "story of the century" was bought out of existence by a story about the Frozen makeover.

I wanna believe, Dave, if this was all proven I'd admit I was wrong. But given that even the source has changed their story about this from when it first became a "thing" - I can't just rely on blind faith.

If this is truly such a massive story and cover-up, then I'd suggest the source take it into their own hands - create a blog, create a social media campaign, demand that it be covered - this is 2015, no longer are we only faced with what the mass media tells us and being stuck with it. Just coming back here and making passive aggressive insults to board posters who have become skeptical and preaching to the converted is just an exercise in futility if the goal is really more than just ego fluffing.

Start contacting board members, stockholders, people they "have known personally" like Michael Eisner and his spawn, the SEC - because frankly, the accusations now going around are reaching beyond gossip and into the territory of the law and financial regulations if they are indeed true. All this spinning wheels around here is doing is further convincing the converted, and further making those skeptical think that the only drama is inside this thread. And if the "highest of the high" in the WDC are really reading this, they aren't shaking in their boots - they are laughing.

 

[AEfx]

Yeah. Who does that?

Maybe someone who has a proverbial gun pointed at their head?

"Give me all the info on the Frozen attraction, or I'll spill all about you in this massive expose about your cover-up of the China-Incident that if true might get me a Pulitzer! And you better give me ALL the details, because if you don't, I'll know and I'll pull the trigger!"

Yup, I'm sure that was his demand, exactly.

I mean, who wouldn't give up the story of the century for a story about the ride scenes included that will be completely forgotten and read by maybe .0001% of people who will ever actually ride the attraction.

 

[bcoachable]

So, Spirit, Ben contacted you? What kind of things did he ask? Did he come of as professional when you visited with him? Did he seem to give you the impression he was going to write the article?

and FWIW, I liked the Spurs / Heat better from a pure basketball perspective, but Steph Curry / Labron match up sure is fun to watch....

 

[PhotoDave219]

Dave, I totally hear you - but as of now, the only evidence we have that this serious drama is going on is an anonymous message board posting which two basic questions have remained unanswered, even when asked by those more in the good graces of said poster.

1. Was that a final, official itinerary that was posted?

2. The majority of the "smoking gun" post was commentary about what happened from an unknown point of view - was it a reporter? a member of Disney's staff? a bus driver?

2a. And who translated it? As anyone who has read a Chinese-translated-into-English user manual can tell you, Mandarin to English is highly subjective as so many words do not have true equivalents.

That's it. That's all we are going on. And answering those simple questions would have changed a lot of how this has all played out.

Journalistic integrity should always be doubted, and often with good reason - given two choices, one of whom is an anonymous message board poster who has full out admitted to being on a "shadow" campaign against the subject, and one of whom is a reporter who listened to said material and likely you know, actually investigated the source - I find it really naive to automatically assume that this is some conspiracy and this "story of the century" was bought out of existence by a story about the Frozen makeover.

I wanna believe, Dave, if this was all proven I'd admit I was wrong. But given that even the source has changed their story about this from when it first became a "thing" - I can't just rely on blind faith.

If this is truly such a massive story and cover-up, then I'd suggest the source take it into their own hands - create a blog, create a social media campaign, demand that it be covered - this is 2015, no longer are we only faced with what the mass media tells us and being stuck with it. Just coming back here and making passive aggressive insults to board posters who have become skeptical and preaching to the converted is just an exercise in futility if the goal is really more than just ego fluffing.

Start contacting board members, stockholders, people they "have known personally" like Michael Eisner and his spawn, the SEC - because frankly, the accusations now going around are reaching beyond gossip and into the territory of the law and financial regulations if they are indeed true. All this spinning wheels around here is doing is further convincing the converted, and further making those skeptical think that the only drama is inside this thread. And if the "highest of the high" in the WDC are really reading this, they aren't shaking in their boots - they are laughing.

I get where youre coming from but something isn't right in the state of Denmark.

And yes, people should be contacting the board of directors about this.

 

[PhotoDave219]

"Give me all the info on the Frozen attraction, or I'll spill all about you in this massive expose about your cover-up of the China-Incident that if true might get me a Pulitzer! And you better give me ALL the details, because if you don't, I'll know and I'll pull the trigger!"

Yup, I'm sure that was his demand, exactly.

I mean, who wouldn't give up the story of the century for a story about the ride scenes included that will be completely forgotten and read by maybe .0001% of people who will ever actually ride the attraction.

Nah, more like "if you hold off on China right now, we'll give you this exclusively"

 

[Prog]

I apologize as this thing has probably been covered extensively, but this thread is too cluttered and busy to navigate. (And for good reason.) But what sort of things (obviously asking vague, big picture concepts, not details) from SDL is TWDC intent on covering up?

 

[bcoachable]

Well, it seems as if China is pulling a fast one on Iger and stealing the "Brand"
(did I sum it up quicker?)

 

[AEfx]

Nah, more like "if you hold off on China right now, we'll give you this exclusively"

But that's like offering someone with a big juicy steak dinner with all the fixins', a couple of quickly forgotten peanuts instead.

It may totally be the case, but I'm not ready to jump to that conclusion because it fits in with the already shaky narrative.