A Spirited Perfect Ten

[wogwog]

Yes. And I saw a post somewhere here when I was killing time this afternoon by someone who mentioned that Disney waited too long to seal the deal with the German shipbuilder that crafted the Dream and Fantasy. That is true. Much like they did last time. Michael 'God' Eisner was looking seriously at expanding DCL as early as 2003. They decided to do it a year later and then ... the poor exchange rate happened and they kept waiting and waiting and waiting before The Weatherman made a smart decision in 2007 and pulled the trigger. Now, he's been too indecisive and while the rate is much better, they won't have a new ship late this decade as originally planned.

EDITS: Just noticed it was @Nmoody1 who brought it up. And the ships are looking to be somewhere between the size of the classic ships and the newer ones.

Good to hear the size planned for the next ships confirmed. I heard the same thing from one of the DCL Captains on a cruise a while back. I do prefer the classics over both of the newer ships.

 

[WDW1974]

The upshot of this conversation to my ears is not the worst-kept secret that the MK is the worst Disney park in the world (the absolute truth... I spent half a day there on a five day trip, and I cannot stop thinking about how appalling my experience in Be Our Guest was - an immersive restaurant doesn't make up for some of the worst and most expensive dining I have ever had), but that respected people are consistently choosing HKDL as the worst or second-worst castle park. (Even though I get the strong implication from WDW1974 that there's a big gap between No. 4 and No. 5).

Not trying to be controversial here, but (both at the time and with hindsight... and the benefit of having seen TDL and its evening 50-minute-queue Fastpass Fiascos) I have it in my mind as #1. It may be smaller than the others, but it's immersive and immaculate everywhere you look (I admit being the youngest park helps there, but on the flip side, they're on top of refurbishments). Not only that, the lands are still true to their original themes and come alive beautifully at night (Adventureland in particular).

I wonder if people are marking it down for what it doesn't have (Pirates, Haunted Mansion, Big Thunder, Peter Pan's Flight). Perhaps... but the attractions it has in-place are no less impressive. I give it extra points for creating something original and not sticking to the 'tried and tested' formula. It also has some of the best dining - with "real-world quality" - within the gates of any Magic Kingdom park I've visited.

Its setting with the castle against those mountains, and the beautiful (and fully-walkable) resort that surrounds it (that fountain...) only go to further elevate the park in my eyes. Perhaps the fact it's a castle park evokes a misplaced nostalgia in guests familiar with DL/WDW (which is then not fulfilled because of the missing elements), but if you eliminate nostalgia and just look at quality, it's right at the top for me.

You grasp it right. There is a huge gap for me between the top four castle parks and the Ghetto Kingdom/SuperDisneyMart of the Swamps.

I love HKDL. Don't get me wrong. And my first visit was in 2008 on an incredibly hot, humid and sunny day that would have made O-Town seem tolerable. ... And I don't grade it down for not having what you list above. MM is HKDL's HM. BGRMTC is HKDL's BTMRR. Two totally unique E-Tix that replace the others in innovative ways. Pirates was never intended to be there until Tim Delaney spent two years plus working/creating a masterpiece of design for a Pirates Land expansion to A-land. Ultimately, it was shot down as too pricey (for Disney since they were paying the entire cost) and he was sent out to pasture. As for Pan, that was always intended to happen. Not sure now that SDL is getting one.

But as much as I agree with so much you place above, there's no way I can put it past the original, which still creates true MAGIC 60 years later in the middle of urban SoCal sprawl -- and has been getting better annually now for a decade plus. I can't put it past a TDL that offers so much, despite feeling cold in places due to HUGE walkways. I can't put it past a DLP that was truly built as a template for a 21st century MK with every attraction plussed.

But, yeah, I love my little park on Lantau. I'm glad that more people are feeling the same annually.

 

[WDW1974]

@WDW1974 did you watch the kickstarter video? Very rarely do I see something with no redeeming value.

Not yet. I was at the hospital today and didn't want to start puking so they'd admit me. But I will ... ate too much and need to lose the weight and don't want to have to do the finger down the throat again.

 

[WDW1974]

Is interesting that Mangum made that statement that Epcot could use a shot in the arm...yet things keep closing and being left for stale and its Disneys and TDO's own fault... So is she in charge of the project?

Kathy is the highest level Imagineer in the swamps right now. I largely like her, but she just spouts company talking points when in public.

 

[AEfx]

Sadly, this doesn't surprise me at all. But, while I know this happens in the media on a regular basis, actually having it confirmed first hand just makes me sick. Makes you start thinking about all of the other stories, some with much greater implications than the goings on at Disney, that are not being reported by our so-called media. Disgusting.

There is a third possibility.

Perhaps they provided him with actual real substantiated information that refuted unsourced, anonymous, Internet message board commentary.

I'm no fan of journalists, or those who currently pose as such, it could have gone down exactly as stated.

However, maybe the "evidence" we have been provided wasn't as conclusive as when presented in such a slanted way here by a source who has been very open about having a massive, passionate hatred against the person this is all about.

Perhaps the reporter asked the same questions folks like I have - was that a final, official itinerary we were provided with? And just who's commentary of what happened (which was apparently translated to boot) was that?

We never got those answers, perhaps the journalist did - which is why he realized it wasn't a story but just strung-together-hearsay with an agenda.

Again, this may all very well be true - including what just supposedly happened - but there are other possibilities that don't require a massive conspiracy to explain that I don't think people are taking as a possibility.

 

[WildcatDen]

the size of the classic ships

Reminds me of the South Park where Randy meets U2's Bono.
#itburns

 

[WDW1974]

Well...they kinda did.
That article was little more than placed PR.
Disney owns Fritz.

Ah, even with a 'hobbled half' you beat me to the punch by many hours ...

The sad thing is I don't know who isn't owned by Disney or any company, special interest group, government official etc that they cover. I'll repeat, we aren't China here. They actually get a fair amount of real news there. We're like North Korea. Everything is placed. Everything is monitored. Everything has a reason for letting the unwashed masses read/see it.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Ok. I'll bite finally. I've had a good day making jokes on the DPB, this can bring me back down to where my lack of interest or intellect likely belongs. I've ignored it for too long because it doesn't interest me in the slightest, but since it's the only thing that seems to be that @WDW1974 thinks is truly worth discussing (not judging if it is or isn't mind you, I have no opinion, just noting recent posting history).

Could someone, potentially in a relatively non-aggressive manner if possible, break down for me why as a consumer, enjoyer of 3 out of 4 Florida based Disney parks, and whose children hold a larger amount of Disney stock than himself, should care whatever is going on in Shanghai?

I'm not trying to be a snarky d-bag here. I've tried to follow some posts, I just can't find any interest in it to pursue it further.

I'll try. I will to sum up as best I can. (And If I'm wrong, @WDW1974 please correct me). That is a Very Valid question as well, IMO.

It all has to do with the overall health and future of the company.

First, China is the emerging middle-class of the world. Think post-war America and the rise of the middle class. They are the future growth of Disney, including P&R. Disney needs to get into that market. Disney needs China, sadly.

So why should we care? Because for the past 20 years, instead of continuing to reinvest in Florida, they've had to bail out DLP. HKDL needed an expansion to drive attendance much sooner than expected. That can't continue to happen in every foreign market Disney goes into.

So its a matter of entering the market correctly, being welcomed with open arms and as equals and as partners. Thats not happening on either side. There's a tit-for-tat game going on, with Shendi/CCP giving intentional slights to Disney while Disney is trying to enter Shanghai with typical American/Wall Street Arrogance and (likely unconsciously) insulting their business partners.

For Example, having a parade of characters through Shanghai for the opening of a Disney Store is pretty much viewed in the same way as General Patton entering Palermo. Its not going to go over well. Because that is simply not how things are done in China. So in retaliation for that, Iger is basically shown no respect and is kept out of the picture. And back and forth it goes. Disney traditionally behaves like the 800 pound gorilla in the room and they simply have no idea what to do with the dragon.

So again, why should we care? Because instead of being a true partnership, Disney isn't in control at all and they're $5.4B in. They're not in control and it is not a partnership because of how they're going about things. Its not a good start AT ALL.

Why was getting Disney Channel in China a big deal for Eisner? (Keep in mind, 15+ years ago) To introduce Disney to the kids and to start marketing to them while they're young. China said no, so Eisner went to Hong Kong. Disney Channel is still not on in China but Iger is hell bent on making this work.

So right now? You have an unfriendly business partner and an audience that doesn't know much about Disney, with little control of the project and you're $5.4 in.

Seriously hope that helps....

 

[PhotoDave219]

Maybe cover up wasn't the best way to put it (I'm kinda focused on bball right now). Edited to reflect that.

Idk, but they lost me at Snowgies.

Me too. Lots of Offensive Fouls. If only there was some place to watch the Finals while at Disney.....

 

[WDW1974]

The only thing I find interesting is the timing. This just days after the LA Times piece?

Who's the audience this is aimed at here? Because its certainly not meant to be us. Are we supposed to be calming investors? Pumping up the stock price? Or is this meant to quell any questions about Shanghai?

Please. You don't know what you are talking about. It's all coincidence. And added to by the fact some people don't actually like Bob Iger (and ain't he such a loveable character?)

No, it isn't aimed at us. It is aimed at the general public, but more importantly at investors and analysts who want to believe that all is MAGICal. That Iger is some sort of God-like exec that Disney would be lost without (again, please tell me what he is if you take away his shopping spree? What has he accomplished?)

Disney will do any/every thing to not have to talk about Shanghai beyond amazing predictions on investor calls where they won't answer any specific questions.

TWDC is definitely in a "We Need to Promote Bob'' mindset now.

 

[PhotoDave219]

There is a third possibility.

Perhaps they provided him with actual real substantiated information that refuted unsourced, anonymous, Internet message board commentary.

I'm no fan of journalists, or those who currently pose as such, it could have gone down exactly as stated.

However, maybe the "evidence" we have been provided wasn't as conclusive as when presented in such a slanted way here by a source who has been very open about having a massive, passionate hatred against the person this is all about.

Perhaps the reporter asked the same questions folks like I have - was that a final, official itinerary we were provided with? And just who's commentary of what happened (which was apparently translated to boot) was that?

We never got those answers, perhaps the journalist did - which is why he realized it wasn't a story but just strung-together-hearsay with an agenda.

Again, this may all very well be true - including what just supposedly happened - but there are other possibilities that don't require a massive conspiracy to explain that I don't think people are taking as a possibility.

I'm thinking a Quid pro Quo.

Right now you do us a solid, you get the inside scoop on the new Frozen stuff, Iger looks good..... and when China comes around, we'll give you first crack.

That's how these things generally work. Its the game that is played. Which will prove beneficial to Disney if they can get their stuff together in Shanghai. If.

 

[WDW1974]

In Tokyo Disneyland last year, we saw "31st Anniversary" merchandise.

Yes. They always do annual merchandise, even on years that aren't every five.

On my first visit to HKDL they were about to celebrate their 3rd anniversary and despite struggling put out all sorts of unique merchandise to celebrate ... that I purchased.

 

[AEfx]

I'll try. I will to sum up as best I can. (And If I'm wrong, @WDW1974 please correct me). That is a Very Valid question as well, IMO.

It all has to do with the overall health and future of the company.

First, China is the emerging middle-class of the world. Think post-war America and the rise of the middle class. They are the future growth of Disney, including P&R. Disney needs to get into that market. Disney needs China, sadly.

So why should we care? Because for the past 20 years, instead of continuing to reinvest in Florida, they've had to bail out DLP. HKDL needed an expansion to drive attendance much sooner than expected. That can't continue to happen in every foreign market Disney goes into.

So its a matter of entering the market correctly, being welcomed with open arms and as equals and as partners. Thats not happening on either side. There's a tit-for-tat game going on, with Shendi/CCP giving intentional slights to Disney while Disney is trying to enter Shanghai with typical American/Wall Street Arrogance and (likely unconsciously) insulting their business partners.

For Example, having a parade of characters through Shanghai for the opening of a Disney Store is pretty much viewed in the same way as General Patton entering Palermo. Its not going to go over well. Because that is simply not how things are done in China. So in retaliation for that, Iger is basically shown no respect and is kept out of the picture. And back and forth it goes. Disney traditionally behaves like the 800 pound gorilla in the room and they simply have no idea what to do with the dragon.

So again, why should we care? Because instead of being a true partnership, Disney isn't in control at all and they're $5.4B in. They're not in control and it is not a partnership because of how they're going about things. Its not a good start AT ALL.

Why was getting Disney Channel in China a big deal for Eisner? (Keep in mind, 15+ years ago) To introduce Disney to the kids and to start marketing to them while they're young. China said no, so Eisner went to Hong Kong. Disney Channel is still not on in China but Iger is hell bent on making this work.

So right now? You have an unfriendly business partner and an audience that doesn't know much about Disney, with little control of the project and you're $5.4 in.

Seriously hope that helps....

Much agreed about why Disney is important in China; however, I have to point out, that it's presuming that the unsourced, anonymous posting here that was supposedly the smoking gun as to how the trip was messed up was accurate when a) it's not the story we were told by the same source originally, and b) again is now the victim of some vast conspiracy to hide (just as I predicted the excuse would be as to why all these journalists supposedly interested in it who didn't write a story).

First it was Darth Iger should have been front and center, he's looking impotent, what a fool not to be!

Then it was Darth Iger tried to be front and center, how stupid of him, what a fool for trying!

Now it's "Vast conspiracy to hide the fact Darth Iger was a fool!"

China is incredibly important to the WDC, but the only evidence we have that Darth Iger messed it all up is from an anonymous posting here that we are supposed to believe a vast conspiracy exists to hide the truth of, when it very well may have been an outdated itinerary and we still to this moment don't know who the source of all the negative commentary about what supposedly happened was.

 

[WDW1974]

Details on the Edison out. "Industrial Gothic" nightclub. In the middle of Disney Springs.

Really. Just think on that. A hipster bar populated with children in strollers and ... lifestylers.

I can't wait to see how this one plays out ...

 

[PhotoDave219]

Please. You don't know what you are talking about. It's all coincidence. And added to by the fact some people don't actually like Bob Iger (and ain't he such a loveable character?)

No, it isn't aimed at us. It is aimed at the general public, but more importantly at investors and analysts who want to believe that all is MAGICal. That Iger is some sort of God-like exec that Disney would be lost without (again, please tell me what he is if you take away his shopping spree? What has he accomplished?)

Disney will do any/every thing to not have to talk about Shanghai beyond amazing predictions on investor calls where they won't answer any specific questions.

TWDC is definitely in a "We Need to Promote Bob'' mindset now.

The irony of this is I can hear the sarcasm in your voice in that first paragraph.... LOL

 

[sshindel]

I'll try. I will to sum up as best I can. (And If I'm wrong, @WDW1974 please correct me). That is a Very Valid question as well, IMO.

It all has to do with the overall health and future of the company.

First, China is the emerging middle-class of the world. Think post-war America and the rise of the middle class. They are the future growth of Disney, including P&R. Disney needs to get into that market. Disney needs China, sadly.

So why should we care? Because for the past 20 years, instead of continuing to reinvest in Florida, they've had to bail out DLP. HKDL needed an expansion to drive attendance much sooner than expected. That can't continue to happen in every foreign market Disney goes into.

So its a matter of entering the market correctly, being welcomed with open arms and as equals and as partners. Thats not happening on either side. There's a tit-for-tat game going on, with Shendi/CCP giving intentional slights to Disney while Disney is trying to enter Shanghai with typical American/Wall Street Arrogance and (likely unconsciously) insulting their business partners.

For Example, having a parade of characters through Shanghai for the opening of a Disney Store is pretty much viewed in the same way as General Patton entering Palermo. Its not going to go over well. Because that is simply not how things are done in China. So in retaliation for that, Iger is basically shown no respect and is kept out of the picture. And back and forth it goes. Disney traditionally behaves like the 800 pound gorilla in the room and they simply have no idea what to do with the dragon.

So again, why should we care? Because instead of being a true partnership, Disney isn't in control at all and they're $5.4B in. They're not in control and it is not a partnership because of how they're going about things. Its not a good start AT ALL.

Why was getting Disney Channel in China a big deal for Eisner? (Keep in mind, 15+ years ago) To introduce Disney to the kids and to start marketing to them while they're young. China said no, so Eisner went to Hong Kong. Disney Channel is still not on in China but Iger is hell bent on making this work.

So right now? You have an unfriendly business partner and an audience that doesn't know much about Disney, with little control of the project and you're $5.4 in.

Seriously hope that helps....

I thank you. That does quite well to bring me up to speed.
I've got a little to mull over about it, but anything I might add to the conversation this late in the game likely has been beaten into the ground, dug up, reanimated, and beaten down again.

 

[sshindel]

Details on the Edison out. "Industrial Gothic" nightclub. In the middle of Disney Springs.

Really. Just think on that. A hipster bar populated with children in strollers and ... lifestylers.

Us faux-hipsters vacation with our children too!

 

[lazyboy97o]

Absolutely correct. What many westerners fail to grasp (not simply here) is that management contracts in China do not reflect the same things they do here. Disney's 70% does not reflect a 70% control over what actually happens in the day to day or year to year running of the park.

It is largely a statement of obligation as to what Disney (and, yes, Shendi) is required to do in order to conduct business there and operate a park/resort. It is NOT executive in any way. ... But not the way it is presented here or leads others to believe. Here, it's read as 'Disney is the corporate decision-maker' ... they are not.

Even here in the U.S. there are many parks where ownership and management are different organizations with the result being that management doesn't call the big shots. On paper Disneyland Paris was the same way (except for the weirdness of an SCA). Hong Kong is the same way, and Hong Kong is now acting on their ownership. You keep making a big deal about Disney not getting to repeat history and pretend to be the majority owner when anyone paying attention in 2005 knew this would be the case.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I thank you. That does quite well to bring me up to speed.
I've got a little to mull over about it, but anything I might add to the conversation this late in the game likely has been beaten into the ground, dug up, reanimated, and beaten down again.

At this point, there's really new other than LAT & WSJ putting out pieces on Iger with the likelyhood to keep people from asking about Shanghai.

Its a toxic relationship and the park hasn't even opened.

Plus and extra $800M for the project that seems to have gone unaccounted for and is rumored to have gone to bribe officials. (Which is illegal if you use a US Bank as part of it - Ask Fifa)

Edit - It is a lot to digest and get your head around. Lots of complex pieces in motion.

The ultimate short version is TWDC doesnt want to talk about Shanghai.

 

[WDW1974]

Yet another example of why the Disney Parks blog and Disney websites in general are pathetic. Read the blurb on the Disney Parks blog about Frozen then read Steve's write up on the main page here. DPB gives you virtually nothing. WDWMagic has actual details that would interest someone taking their time to actually look this up. Yet another example of why I always point people to the unofficial Disney websites if they need information. Almost always a better source.

In this case, very unusual to anyone who knows better, Disney opted to let a business writer for the WSJ 'spoil' an entire attraction. I don't know where Steve got his information here ... but gonna guess that whether it was from the WSJ or someone picking that up or simply from a source of his that he wasn't given it by Disney.