A Spirited Perfect Ten

71jason

Well-Known Member
I don't go to WDW as much as I used to, but when I do go, the place always seems crowded. No more off-season. So, the real question is - why is that?

Lack of capacity due to shuttering of "spaces" (not just rides, also restaurants) and--the big one--FastPass. FastPass drives up wait times and sends people from queues into walkways. The increased prominence of strollers--both "double-wide" versions and kids up to age 8 using them, both unheard of before 90s helicopter parents--and ECVs no doubt plays a role as well.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Lack of capacity due to shuttering of "spaces" (not just rides, also restaurants) and--the big one--FastPass. FastPass drives up wait times and sends people from queues into walkways. The increased prominence of strollers--both "double-wide" versions and kids up to age 8 using them, both unheard of before 90s helicopter parents--and ECVs no doubt plays a role as well.
Or just the fact that there are plain MORE people.
 

nor'easter

Well-Known Member
Do you have kids?
Is that the primary criterion? So that you can go with your little sweet pea, dress her up and put makeup on her so that you can stand in line for hours to get her picture with a pimply teenager also made up to look like a princess? (And of course booking those character meals months in advance.)

Maybe I agree with you, that this is more and more Disney's target audience. But I despair that that there are so many toddlers and tiaras parents out there, and that Disney is ignoring so many other demographics.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Nostalgia is still a big draw I think - baby boomers and otherswho visited the parks back in the 80's and 90's want to bring their kids and grandkids because they remember how awesome it was. To them it's kind of a rite of passage. I do wonder how many of them keep returning though now that you need a personal trainer to plan your magical experience for you. Then there are those who never went back in its prime and don't know any better because they have nothing to compare it to so they just buy into all the pixie-dusted c r a p. We have a neighbor here like that. He always wanted to go when he was a kid, but his parents couldn't afford it, so this is his mecca. He's been 3 times in the past 3 years and can't wait to go back...well except for the fact that he and his family all got sick on the food during their last visit....
There is another factor involved which makes the downfall of Disney less then a sure thing. That is that most of the upset is coming from those that were there 30 to 35 years ago, mostly as children or young adults. I would be one of those. I miss the old Epcot a lot, but, I am not that upset with what is currently there, but as for the rest of the place, I have no real issue with it and in many ways I am sure that I see more vibrant colors, nicer looking areas and more flowers and beautiful landscaping now then I remember back then. I can tell, that as I age I go for less time and less often simply because unlike before, sometimes there is pain all mixed in with my enjoyment. In other words, we are much less relevant to their success then we were in our youth. We are naturally fading off into the sunset.

But the key factor is that as @George said, as we have gained more money, fewer small children and the aches and pains of aging, our personal interest level is lessened. Our tastes and desires have altered over those years and are spending money on other things. And then there is that ever looming "Bucket List".

New people arriving now, do not have those memories, real or imagined, of what it was like years ago. They see WDW for what it is now and it is very impressive to them, just like it was to us when we first set foot on property. That first impression coupled with the fact that they have no real basis of comparison, will keep them coming back. Their outlook will be the same as ours, only without the "I remember as a child" burden attached. That will come later, when they are not as relevant either.

It appears that Universal is taking days away from Disney and yet Disney is always full of people. Maybe the idea that there are two world class theme parks to go to in Orlando, is bringing more in then before. I have always enjoyed Uni and have fairly regularly spent days there since it opened. I am not locked into a resort because I stay offsite for either of them, so the number of days I spend at Disney is determined by how much time I have available along with what interests me at that time. I love having choices and by the looks of things no matter what my decision, no one seems to be hurting because of my decisions.

Nostalgia still exists and is what is bringing all of us ancients back, but, it is not a factor for the newbie. They are currently creating what will be their nostalgia. They know of no cutbacks, they know of no lessening of quality. Disney does just enough to hide most of those that are not looking for it. To them there is nothing out of line.

Does that mean the end of Disney? Not by a long-shot, because to this point, they have managed to remain a pretty impressive place. And, I might add, it hasn't been because of us complaining. They are not Walt Disney, but, they mostly do know what it takes to remain world class. We may not like it much, but, others apparently do.
 
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CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Nope, but the kids are not the factor here. The wife is dictating what they do. She refuses to change their trip even for a day. I feel like the wand ceremony at universal is pretty impressive compared to Jedi academy. until they start to make things float....
Maybe she just LIKES Disney things more than what's offered at Universal? The concept art of Kong looks gorgeous, but Kong doesn't appeal to me as a theme so it won't be a draw for me. If you like Star Wars and don't care for Potter, it doesn't matter which is more technically impressive.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Is that the primary criterion? So that you can go with your little sweet pea, dress her up and put makeup on her so that you can stand in line for hours to get her picture with a pimply teenager also made up to look like a princess? (And of course booking those character meals months in advance.)

Maybe I agree with you, that this is more and more Disney's target audience. But I despair that that there are so many toddlers and tiaras parents out there, and that Disney is ignoring so many other demographics.
That's not my point. I'm not talking about "kiddie" attractions. I'm talking about seeing things through a child's eyes as a way to keep them fresh. I LOVED Peter Pan's Flight when I was a kid. Then I lived in Orlando as a pass holder for three years, rode it a ton if times, and got sick of it. When I went on with my daughter this year, it was like riding for the first time.
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
Maybe she just LIKES Disney things more than what's offered at Universal? The concept art of Kong looks gorgeous, but Kong doesn't appeal to me as a theme so it won't be a draw for me. If you like Star Wars and don't care for Potter, it doesn't matter which is more technically impressive.
She's an avid Harry Potter fan, that's the peculiar part.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Interesting quotes and thoughts on a topic I've thought a lot about over the last 15 years. I don't go to WDW as much as I used to, but when I do go, the place always seems crowded. No more off-season. So, the real question is - why is that? If they are luring in first time visitors who will never come back then attendance may one day recede. However, we can't ignore the real possibility that some like this version of WDW better than old(er) versions. Like @Nemo14 , I've had discussions with many that would indicate this is not the case. Even as a dude who bought DVC resale (over 10 years ago now, I'm getting old!) lots of DVC members indicate they don't attend the WDW theme parks as much. TBH though, I would think that if attendance was going to take a hit due to the changes that have taken place over the years, I'm a bit bemused that it hasn't already happened. Could it just be population growth? More people have money for a vacation like this than when I was a kid? I think @englanddg mentioned a few weeks ago that the upper middle class doesn't seem to hold WDW in the regard they once did. I would say that is definitely the case. It has been a long time since the mere mention of a trip to the World earned an awed gasp which it, on occasion, actually used to legitimately elicit from adults. It does seem like qualitative/observational evidence (I talk to a lot of people, especially when on vacation) would indicate that a higher ratio of people aren't as awed by WDW as they used to be, yet numbers show attendance to be more than solid. What is the reason the bigwigs at Disney attribute this to? Magic Bands? Is there a great, silent majority that love WDW as it is now?
A deep discussion. Here are some very general groups of guests and what in my opinion is likely happening with them as far as visiting the parks.
  1. The disenfranchised regulars (highly represented on this board). These guests are/were either locals or very regular visitors (more than once a year, trips lasting more than a week). For this group there are not enough changes at WDW to keep people interested in coming back as regularly or for some at all. This group also recognizes every missing detail from every ride and is just tired of seeing the same parades and shows multiple times a year for years on end. This group typically views DHS and AK as 1/2 day parks. They don't visit the parks as frequently as they once did. This group has a disproportionately large presence on this thread, but make up a relatively small group overall.
  2. The pixie dusted regulars. Same visiting patterns as #1 but they don't see the problems or don't care about them. This group also includes people who recognize the decline, but still view WDW as a good value and a preferred vacation spot. This group still goes back just as much as ever. This group is also disproportionately represented on this board, less so on this thread than #1. They also make up a relatively small group of visitors overall.
  3. There is a rather substantial sized group of repeat visitors who don't come back as frequently as groups 1 and 2. They aren't necessarily theme park fanboys but may visit online sites from time to time to get info or see what's happening. This group may visit every few years or even as frequently as every other year (especially when their kids are young). They don't tend to notice as many flaws and shows and rides seem less stale because they haven't seen them in potentially a few years. For this group it may be hard to get through parks like DHS or AK in a day because they want to do most if not everything. The attitude is who knows when I'll be back and my kids may not be into this anymore by the time of our next trip. This group tends to not really mind the planning ahead required for a WDW trip since it's not every year or multiple times a year for them. Planning meals and even ride times for a vacation every single year can get tedious. This group is probably a mixed bag as far as more recent frequency of return. They may also end up being most sensitive to price increases.
  4. The final group is the once in a lifetime visitor. Probably a large group. Rite of passage for the kids. Maybe spending significantly more money then a normal vacation (possibly saved for several years to afford). They usually want to do everything in a trip because they don't know if they will be back. This group is as strong as ever. They don't visit places like this forum. Don't know anything about slips in quality or stale parks. Nothing is stale to them since they have never seen any of it. This group seems to be as common as ever despite price increases.
I think the reason we hear so much about people not visiting as frequently is because of the large number of people in group #1 here. Attendance is down with that group. Probably a lot (especially locals). Groups 3 and 4 are making up for it though. Things like DVC also potentially convert people who may have been in group 4 into group 3 or more likely group 3 into group 2. Creating a more loyal group of visitors who visit more frequently.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
A deep discussion. Here are some very general groups of guests and what in my opinion is likely happening with them as far as visiting the parks.
  1. The disenfranchised regulars (highly represented on this board). These guests are/were either locals or very regular visitors (more than once a year, trips lasting more than a week). For this group there are not enough changes at WDW to keep people interested in coming back as regularly or for some at all. This group also recognizes every missing detail from every ride and is just tired of seeing the same parades and shows multiple times a year for years on end. This group typically views DHS and AK as 1/2 day parks. They don't visit the parks as frequently as they once did. This group has a disproportionately large presence on this thread, but make up a relatively small group overall.
  2. The pixie dusted regulars. Same visiting patterns as #1 but they don't see the problems or don't care about them. This group also includes people who recognize the decline, but still view WDW as a good value and a preferred vacation spot. This group still goes back just as much as ever. This group is also disproportionately represented on this board, less so on this thread than #1. They also make up a relatively small group of visitors overall.
  3. There is a rather substantial sized group of repeat visitors who don't come back as frequently as groups 1 and 2. They aren't necessarily theme park fanboys but may visit online sites from time to time to get info or see what's happening. This group may visit every few years or even as frequently as every other year (especially when their kids are young). They don't tend to notice as many flaws and shows and rides seem less stale because they haven't seen them in potentially a few years. For this group it may be hard to get through parks like DHS or AK in a day because they want to do most if not everything. The attitude is who knows when I'll be back and my kids may not be into this anymore by the time of our next trip. This group tends to not really mind the planning ahead required for a WDW trip since it's not every year or multiple times a year for them. Planning meals and even ride times for a vacation every single year can get tedious. This group is probably a mixed bag as far as more recent frequency of return. They may also end up being most sensitive to price increases.
  4. The final group is the once in a lifetime visitor. Probably a large group. Rite of passage for the kids. Maybe spending significantly more money then a normal vacation (possibly saved for several years to afford). They usually want to do everything in a trip because they don't know if they will be back. This group is as strong as ever. They don't visit places like this forum. Don't know anything about slips in quality or stale parks. Nothing is stale to them since they have never seen any of it. This group seems to be as common as ever despite price increases.
I think the reason we hear so much about people not visiting as frequently is because of the large number of people in group #1 here. Attendance is down with that group. Probably a lot (especially locals). Groups 3 and 4 are making up for it though. Things like DVC also potentially convert people who may have been in group 4 into group 3 or more likely group 3 into group 2. Creating a more loyal group of visitors who visit more frequently.
Someone sticky this post and make it mandatory reading.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Satoru Iwata, CEO of Nintendo, is apparently surprised by Universal's “extremely detailed” plans for Nintendo attractions.
http://mynintendonews.com/2015/05/1...nd-hints-at-nintendo-films-and-video-content/
Guess this pretty much confirms this isn't just another Avatar situation where it was announced way too early, not that I had any doubts :D


Fair warning: DO NOT READ THE COMMENTS SECTION!!!!!!!! This site is not at all moderated. I used to comment there but not anymore.
 

Quinnmac000

Well-Known Member
Satoru Iwata, CEO of Nintendo, is apparently surprised by Universal's “extremely detailed” plans for Nintendo attractions.
http://mynintendonews.com/2015/05/1...nd-hints-at-nintendo-films-and-video-content/
Guess this pretty much confirms this isn't just another Avatar situation where it was announced way too early, not that I had any doubts :D

Fair warning: DO NOT READ THE COMMENTS SECTION!!!!!!!! This site is not at all moderated. I used to comment there but not anymore.

I'm just happy the plans seem to be made so all it needs now is to be executed. Nintendolad 2017 would be great
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Lack of capacity due to shuttering of "spaces" (not just rides, also restaurants) and--the big one--FastPass. FastPass drives up wait times and sends people from queues into walkways.
Bingo.

One of the primary goals of Fastpass under Pressler was to make guests spend less time in attractions and more time out of them. The idea was more time to spend more money and less time queueing for rides.

The result was unbalancing the careful balance of park capacity and in some respects lowering total capacity. Not to mention making the parks - outside of attraction buildings - busier.

(Fastpass plus takes this one step further with the criteria to try to force guests to ride less popular attractions and make them think it's a bonus)
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Satoru Iwata, CEO of Nintendo, is apparently surprised by Universal's “extremely detailed” plans for Nintendo attractions.
http://mynintendonews.com/2015/05/1...nd-hints-at-nintendo-films-and-video-content/
Guess this pretty much confirms this isn't just another Avatar situation where it was announced way too early, not that I had any doubts :D


Fair warning: DO NOT READ THE COMMENTS SECTION!!!!!!!! This site is not at all moderated. I used to comment there but not anymore.

Well you never read the comments. Duh.
 

Soarin' Over Pgh

Well-Known Member
Satoru Iwata, CEO of Nintendo, is apparently surprised by Universal's “extremely detailed” plans for Nintendo attractions.
http://mynintendonews.com/2015/05/1...nd-hints-at-nintendo-films-and-video-content/
Guess this pretty much confirms this isn't just another Avatar situation where it was announced way too early, not that I had any doubts :D


Fair warning: DO NOT READ THE COMMENTS SECTION!!!!!!!! This site is not at all moderated. I used to comment there but not anymore.


Its been a while since I've posted (I've missed you all...well, most of you!) because life keeps getting between me and this forum... And now that I'm finally caught up here, I knew of all people Mike you'd be going crazy over the Nintendo announcement :) I'm right in that boat with you, I nearly hit the ceiling over it and can't wait to see what Universal comes up with. Exciting times!


Just telling it like it is. Like I always do. ... It's day to day ... really ... and it sucks, but such is life.
Oh, and I owe you (and a few others) a PM. I will get around to it. Hope all is well with you!

I owe you a PM but it's good to see you still posting. Will drop you a line shortly :)

Well.

You're right. Tho I wanna see it in person.

Dave anytime you wanna go, I'm game!




One thing I haven't seen mentioned for at least 40 pages is the plans if any (or if they've changed) for Star Wars at DL. Is anything noteworthy being passed around? Are we still within that awful timeline and looking, at the very earliest, 2021??
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Its been a while since I've posted (I've missed you all...well, most of you!) because life keeps getting between me and this forum... And now that I'm finally caught up here, I knew of all people Mike you'd be going crazy over the Nintendo announcement :) I'm right in that boat with you, I nearly hit the ceiling over it and can't wait to see what Universal comes up with. Exciting times!




I owe you a PM but it's good to see you still posting. Will drop you a line shortly :)



Dave anytime you wanna go, I'm game!




One thing I haven't seen mentioned for at least 40 pages is the plans if any (or if they've changed) for Star Wars at DL. Is anything noteworthy being passed around? Are we still within that awful timeline and looking, at the very earliest, 2021??

No new news on the subject.
 

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