Y'all should ...

doctornick

Well-Known Member
I think it may be two months now since Iger said no new big investments. Seems like this announcement had as much truth in it as those "no more discounting" announcements he made in the past.

That's not really accurate. He said that the Parks division was going to be spending significantly less in the upcoming years than they had been -- but they've been spending a ton recently on two cruise ships and Alauni plus whatever they've been spending at the resorts (like FLE and Carsland). They can fund this DHS stuff plus Pandora plus the DL E-ticket and still be spending significantly less than they have been.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
I think it may be two months now since Iger said no new big investments. Seems like this announcement had as much truth in it as those "no more discounting" announcements he made in the past.
Yes, I do recall him making public statements along the lines of "no more discounts" more than once.;)
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
That's not really accurate. He said that the Parks division was going to be spending significantly less in the upcoming years than they had been -- but they've been spending a ton recently on two cruise ships and Alauni plus whatever they've been spending at the resorts (like FLE and Carsland). They can fund this DHS stuff plus Pandora plus the DL E-ticket and still be spending significantly less than they have been.

Yes, this is correct. Jay Rasulo did a speech recently and said that the capitol budget for the parks division would be greater the $1 billion but significantly less the $2 billion. He also said the Avatar expansion would come out of that budget.
 

Bolna

Well-Known Member
That's not really accurate. He said that the Parks division was going to be spending significantly less in the upcoming years than they had been -- but they've been spending a ton recently on two cruise ships and Alauni plus whatever they've been spending at the resorts (like FLE and Carsland). They can fund this DHS stuff plus Pandora plus the DL E-ticket and still be spending significantly less than they have been.

You forget the money they spent to bail out Euro Disney S.C.A. It might have gone unnoticed here (WDW1974 mentioned it in one of his posts, but nobody picked up on it and the thread on the DLP board died after 4 posts), but have a look at this: http://corporate.disneylandparis.com/CORP/EN/Neutral/Images/uk-2012-09-18-debt-Press-release.pdf

The way I read this is that TWDC bought the 1.7 billion dollar debt Euro Disney S.C.A. has from the banks and is now the new lender. I don't know what price they had to pay for buying those loans, but I can't imagine that it was sold at a huge discount. So this is a huge junk of money that I would think falls under the Parks & Resort umbrella.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
This is just the quickest way of comparing parks, but here's the number attractions on each park's official map (each park seems to have different standards on what is an "attraction", which is why it's hard to compare; I will try to point some questionable "attractions" out:
DL - 60 (questionable: Main St Vehicles are listed separately, Starcade, Bibbidi Bobbidi)
MK - 42 (I added Sorcerers and the questionable: City Hall, Chamber of Commerce package pickup, Harmony Barber Shop, Bibbidi Bobbidi, Pirates League)
DCA - 37 (questionable: bread tour)
Epcot - 32 is what I counted, but depends very heavily on how you count pavilions and their associated parts; I think I was fair.
DAK - 21 (questionable: Rafiki's Planet Watch is divided into four attractions; nearly one out of every five attractions is RPW)
DHS - 18 (questionable: ABC Sound Studio)

Anyway, I think it's fair to say that DCA more than holds its own. It has more than twice as many attractions as DHS!

Ooh! I love listing attractions! I wanna play too! :D

When you kick out the very questionable "attractions" that are counted on Guidemaps from both coasts, you get the following counts. This is the total number of rides and shows at each park, not counting meet n' greets, extra-cost arcades or kiddy salons, or customer services like City Hall. For both MK and Disneyland, the railroad only counts as one attraction even though the individual stations are called out as "attractions" on the maps, and the "main street vehicles" only count as one attraction, even though there are three kinds of cars/buses operating. And you can't count sprinkler playgrounds like Casey Jr. in MK or Puddle Park in DCA. And for Epcot, each country automatically counts as an "attraction" even if its just some shops and a restaurant like Japan, Italy, Germany, UK, etc.

The tally of rides and shows (legit attractions) by my count, looking at my guidemaps from the last 14 months of trips, while factoring in what's opened thus far in MK's FLE Circusland (I haven't been to see it yet, and don't have the current map):

Disneyland - 48 (11 E Tickets)
Magic Kingdom - 32 (7 E Tickets)
California Adventure - 30 (5 E Tickets)
Epcot - 24 (E Tickets very hard to quantify without starting a war. Maybe 6 if you include Spaceship Earth?)
DAK - 16 (4 E Tickets, 4 Walking Trails)
DHS - 16 (4 E Tickets, 9 Stage Shows)

Using those numbers, here's how the two American resorts tally up;

Walt Disney World, Orlando - 88 (20 E Tickets)
Disneyland Resort, Anaheim - 78 (16 E Tickets)

The good news is that Magic Kingdom gets to add a new D Ticket to the roster by Christmas with Mermaid, and then another new D Ticket with the Mine Train by 2014. If you include the Belle meet n' greet as a new attraction due to the involved showmanship there, you've got three new "attractions" coming to MK by 2014 bringing it up to a total of 35 attractions. They took a hit with the closure of Toontown, and the removal of Snow White's Scary Adventures.

Not to be caught standing still, there are rumored new attractions coming to Disneyland's Tomorrowland and/or Frontierland by 2015, and then there's the DHS and Avatar rumors for 2016 or beyond. So the park numbers are often in flux.
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
Epcot - 24 (E Tickets very hard to quantify without starting a war. Maybe 6 if you include Spaceship Earth?)
E tickets are hard to gauge just in general, so I tried to avoid that war. Look at the arguments recently about Toy Story and the Mine Coaster. Then you have things like Tiki Room, Country Bears, the Mark Twain/Columbia, Hall of Presidents and some have even said Jungle Cruise that actually were E tickets back in the day, but might not be today if the system were still in place. But it sure is fun to think about isn't it?
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
I think it may be two months now since Iger said no new big investments. Seems like this announcement had as much truth in it as those "no more discounting" announcements he made in the past.

First they put a lot of money on the table to assume Euro Disney S.C.A.'s 1.7 billion US$ debt (which I guess they were forced to do) and now we are talking substantial investments at DHS... Makes me wonder how the Euro Disney debt will impact any willingness of the board to green light huge investments in the US parks?
Someone who follows corporate Disney more would know better, but hasn't Disney had tons of cash on hand for a while now? This way, they can improve the health of the Paris resort and get a little interest instead of just having that cash sitting there doing nothing for them. It's not (entirely) a charity case; Disney will get their money back from EuroDisney SCA.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
@TP2000 are you including parades, fireworks and spectaculars?

No. Outdoor entertainment spectaculars don't count. Stage shows performed multiple times per day using live actors count as an attraction, like Disney Jr., DHS stunt shows, American Idol, or Aladdin.

If you counted outdoor major entertainment spectaculars; parades, fireworks, water shows, you get this number;

Disneyland - 3 (Soundsational parade, fireworks spectacular, Fantasmic!)
Magic Kingdom - 3 (Afternoon parade, Electrical parade, fireworks spectacular)
California Adventure - 3 (Pixar Play Parade, World of Color, Mad T Party)
DHS - 2 (Countdown To Fun Parade, Fantasmic!)
Epcot - 1 (Reflections of Earth)
DAK 1 - (Mickey's Jammin' Jungle Parade)

The resort totals for major entertainment spectaculars are;

Walt Disney World, Orlando - 7
Disneyland Resort, Anaheim - 6
 

NoChesterHester

Well-Known Member
No. Outdoor entertainment spectaculars don't count. Stage shows performed multiple times per day using live actors count as an attraction, like Disney Jr., DHS stunt shows, American Idol, or Aladdin.

If you counted outdoor major entertainment spectaculars; parades, fireworks, water shows, you get this number;

Disneyland - 3 (Soundsational parade, fireworks spectacular, Fantasmic!)
Magic Kingdom - 3 (Afternoon parade, Electrical parade, fireworks spectacular)
California Adventure - 3 (Pixar Play Parade, World of Color, Mad T Party)
DHS - 2 (Countdown To Fun Parade, Fantasmic!)
Epcot - 1 (Reflections of Earth)
DAK 1 - (Mickey's Jammin' Jungle Parade)

The resort totals for major entertainment spectaculars are;

Walt Disney World, Orlando - 7
Disneyland Resort, Anaheim - 6

The Projection Shows?
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
The Projection Shows?

They aren't currently operating on either coast, so I didn't count them. But when they return, you could count them. There are also seasonal entertainment spectacular offerings, particularly at Disneyland, but those only show up for Christmas, 6 weeks of the year. I just stuck with the consistent offerings.
 

SirLink

Well-Known Member
No. Outdoor entertainment spectaculars don't count. Stage shows performed multiple times per day using live actors count as an attraction, like Disney Jr., DHS stunt shows, American Idol, or Aladdin.

If you counted outdoor major entertainment spectaculars; parades, fireworks, water shows, you get this number;

Disneyland - 3 (Soundsational parade, fireworks spectacular, Fantasmic!)
Magic Kingdom - 3 (Afternoon parade, Electrical parade, fireworks spectacular)
California Adventure - 3 (Pixar Play Parade, World of Color, Mad T Party)
DHS - 2 (Countdown To Fun Parade, Fantasmic!)
Epcot - 1 (Reflections of Earth)
DAK 1 - (Mickey's Jammin' Jungle Parade)

The resort totals for major entertainment spectaculars are;

Walt Disney World, Orlando - 7
Disneyland Resort, Anaheim - 6

Wait WHAT? Excuse me but IMHO an attraction is any ride and when it comes to entertainment, any which lasts for more than 7 minutes - minus M+G's. But the real problem is DLR with its 2 parks have nearly the same amount of attractions as 4 parks in WDW. Which kinda shows ya 2 parks were rushed out the door, and hardly any capital investment.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Wait WHAT? Excuse me but IMHO an attraction is any ride and when it comes to entertainment, any which lasts for more than 7 minutes - minus M+G's.

That about sums up the criteria I used to tally the attractions at the six American parks. If you want to include stuff like fireworks and parades as an "attraction", just add in the separate tallies from "major entertainment spectaculars" to the list. But that doesn't move the needle much for either coast, it just cements the already existing trend.

But the real problem is DLR with its 2 parks have nearly the same amount of attractions as 4 parks in WDW. Which kinda shows ya 2 parks were rushed out the door, and hardly any capital investment.

Yup. It's at its most glaring at DAK and DHS.
 

stevehousse

Well-Known Member
Here is the attraction list according to my vintage ticket book for MK
E
Small world
20,000 leagues under the sea
Country bear jamboree
Jungle cruise
Haunted mansion
Hall of presidents

D
Disney railroad
Skyway
Flight to the moon
Mickey Mouse revue
Admiral joe fowler (???)
Tiki room

C
Tomorrow land speedway
Peter pans flight
Snow White scary adventures
Mr toads wild ride
Explorer canoes
Swiss family treehouse

B
Main Street cinema
Dumbo
Mad tea party
Mike fink keelboats
Frontier land shooting gallery

A
Cinderellas carousel
Main Street vehicles
Horse drawn street cars
Omnibus

The way they type attractions is so different now it seems. I do consider swmt to be an E attraction after going over the book little mermaid a C.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
Someone who follows corporate Disney more would know better, but hasn't Disney had tons of cash on hand for a while now? This way, they can improve the health of the Paris resort and get a little interest instead of just having that cash sitting there doing nothing for them. It's not (entirely) a charity case; Disney will get their money back from EuroDisney SCA.
Correct, a note receivable is not a capital investment.
 

John

Well-Known Member
First, it depends on who you think is really making the major decisions at WDW, Burbank or TDO. From a corporate perspective, I doubt TDO has the authority to green light any $100 million plus WDW investment without Burbank's approval. Second, what happens at WDW is largely driven by its financial success. If WDW is making a lot of money for TWDC by building DVCs, raising ticket prices, and cutting corners, then we will continue to get more of that. If, however, revenue and profits are not trending in the direction Burbank wants, "somebody" at a very high level will expect "somebody" at a lower level to "fix it".

WDW has skated by financially for more than 10 years based on reputation (and building more DVCs & higher ticket prices). However, with the wildly successful WWOHP up the road and, more recently, Carsland, it might not be enough anymore. Vacationers actually need a reason to visit WDW, rather than arrogantly taking the position that "we're WDW, everybody loves us". If the rumor mill is to be believed, TDO (or whomever you think is calling the shots) might be forced to take a new approach because the old approach of the last 10+ years is no longer working.


Does this mean the Yeti (for example) will suddenly be fixed? No. However, it does suggest that "the powers that be" are looking for a new business strategy. Perhaps Carsland in DHS and Avatarland in DAK are part of that new strategy. Will both (or even more) come to fruition? It's uncertain at this point. Corporately, change is hard so I strongly suspect there are significant internal battles going on right now within TWDC to set the future direction of WDW. I simply hope it's a different direction than the last 10+ years.



I have to agree with you....the big boys will have to write the checks. But then what? Who is in charge of execution? Burbamk dealing with Cameron....so they cut the deal then hand off to TDO? Carsland? Why after building it in DCA wouldnt they send that team to build it in FL.? Who would know better? OK....so who cares who builds what. Our wonderful Team DIsney is left with maintence...etc. I am sorry I have little faith in them.

Weather its TDO or Burbank I have a hard time seeing them spend this amount on WDW. When you take in consideration the money spent on Nex-gen, Fle, DVC, all the refurbs that have taken place, AOA and anything else I maybe missing.....well you get the point. Thats a lot of Mickey dollars. So now we are to believe that they are going to spend another billion plus?

Lee or anybody else....what was the cost of CL? You would think it would cost less in FL. Then again we are talking about FL. Guest ned a reason to visit WDW? Hmmmm well no matter what is built now, people are not going to all of the sudden forget what is going on up the street. That horse has left the barn. Also does building these new attractions solve the reral issues that WDW is suffering? Quality....total guest experience. The mess DHS has become? Does Carsland fix DHS? EPCOT? the transportation issues? maintence issues?

If they build these new attractions we will be talking about how we remember when a single day ticket was $100 in the not to distant future.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
The way I read this is that TWDC bought the 1.7 billion dollar debt Euro Disney S.C.A. has from the banks and is now the new lender. I don't know what price they had to pay for buying those loans, but I can't imagine that it was sold at a huge discount. So this is a huge junk of money that I would think falls under the Parks & Resort umbrella.

But that is money of 'a different color'. That is financial investment money... Money that they plan on getting back plus interest. Not the same as capital spending where they hope to get the value back through increased revenues.

Different types of spending with very different types of expectations and different types of convincing needed. One is purely an accounting thing.. Just like how they manage their short and long term cash assets. The other is about capital investment in a business with less certainties and Guarantees.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
And they didn't say no more discounts. They were saying they were trying to ween off discounts as the outlook was getting better -to say it was a temporary thing and not a general errosion of their price points. They had been cutting back and showed progress there, but it will never goto zero. It's a tool to shape demand and they had to prove to the investors that the demand dip was not a long term projection on the demand for their product at their price points.
 

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