Universal announces yet another major attraction, Disney taking a nap

[Pumbas Nakasak]

But perception isn't paying the contruction workers. Again, there are some major projects underway. That is why I'm confused. :veryconfu

Why? Now is the time to do things material and labour are cheap, interest charges are high but if you are cash rich you dont need to borrow.

But thats not what were critical of. Its the projects that money is being spent on. Why should I be excited about a Disney hotel in a place Ill never go? Especially when in a place Ive invested my own little pile in is being neglected.

 

[jt04]

Why? Now is the time to do things material and labour are cheap, interest charges are high but if you are cash rich you dont need to borrow.

But thats not what were critical of. Its the projects that money is being spent on. Why should I be excited about a Disney hotel in a place Ill never go? Especially when in a place Ive invested my own little pile in is being neglected.

I see. I love touring the Washington DC area. So I guess that is why I'm excited about that DVC. Plus it looks amazing.

I already belong to a vacation club in Hawaii, so I was never too excited about that DVC announcement.

Now when they build a DVC in the Alps, I'll be very excited.:sohappy:

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I see. I love touring the Washington DC area. So I guess that is why I'm excited about that DVC. Plus it looks amazing.

I already belong to a vacation club in Hawaii, so I was never too excited about that DVC announcement.

Now when they build a DVC in the Alps, I'll be very excited.:sohappy:

I just dont share your excitement, given that there are plenty of good hotels operated by companies more proficient than Disney. :shrug:

And in a way youve answered your initial question. By building DVC Disney is passing the long term cost of construction, maintenance , and risk, on to daft pillocks who buy in, and subsequently find that what attracted them is no longer top of Disneys list.

 

[Lee]

Again, there are some major projects underway. That is why I'm confused. :veryconfu

It's complicated, but I'll try to sum it up.
Take DCA for example. The funding for that project, both cash and any loans that were required, was put into place well before the economy tanked. What is going on now financially is not having much effect. Kinda like if you took out a car loan two years ago. The financing was set in place then, and you are now driving the car and paying it off.
DCA was lucky in that they had already spent (at least on paper) a lot of the money, so it was able to mostly avoid cuts after the economic turn.
Same with the new cruise ships.
(Space Mountain....came a little late. The final budget there wasn't fully approved until after such time as the sharp pencil boys began to get nervous. Hence, the scope of the project was...ummm...trimmed down.)

The other stuff, is a little smoke and mirrors. It's easy to put down some money to purchase some land and then make a big splashy announcement. That shows growth and aggression to the market and public, without having to actually start construction or spend any more money. For example, Flamingo Crossings. Big announcement, got lots of ink and interest. Now there is really nothing moving forward with any speed. I sense the Washington DVC will be very similar until the economy turns.

 

[jt04]

It's complicated, but I'll try to sum it up.
Take DCA for example. The funding for that project, both cash and any loans that were required, was put into place well before the economy tanked. What is going on now financially is not having much effect. Kinda like if you took out a car loan two years ago. The financing was set in place then, and you are now driving the car and paying it off.
DCA was lucky in that they had already spent (at least on paper) a lot of the money, so it was able to mostly avoid cuts after the economic turn.
Same with the new cruise ships.
(Space Mountain....came a little late. The final budget there wasn't fully approved until after such time as the sharp pencil boys began to get nervous. Hence, the scope of the project was...ummm...trimmed down.)

The other stuff, is a little smoke and mirrors. It's easy to put down some money to purchase some land and then make a big splashy announcement. That shows growth and aggression to the market and public, without having to actually start construction or spend any more money. For example, Flamingo Crossings. Big announcement, got lots of ink and interest. Now there is really nothing moving forward with any speed. I sense the Washington DVC will be very similar until the economy turns.

Got it. It all adds up. Sounds like SM got the green light just in time. Whew!

 

[WDW1974]

So again, how are they going forward with all those amazing new projects?

My response would be what amazing new projects? At WDW? There aren't ANY!

New timeshares? Rehabs to existing attractions? Stitch's Dance Party?

There aren't any major investment or reinvestment projects going on in the whole P&R division unless you bring in things like the two new cruise ships or the DCA makeover ... things that had financing lined up long before anyone admitted the economy was even remotely having problems.

I am no financial wiz by any stretch but I can read an annual or quarterly report and the responses to them by both the company officials and Wall Street analysts.

I see Lee has 'splained the situation in more detail and since I agree with him I really don't have anything else to add right now.

 

[WDW1974]

To be fair, I have no more knowledge than the average poster, so I can't argue with you financially or statistically. But, to go all the way back to the original argument, the reasons for the fall in attendance and profit aren't because of Disney's allegedly-slipping quality, but because of a credit crunch that has affected everyone adversely.

Believe me, everytime someone at TDO offers an idea to make more money by cutting quality, show or the Disney details they always start with a similar argument. People are still coming. They're still responding positively to our in-house 'fixed' surveys. So, we are doing everything right and no one knows we're offering less but charging more.

Except for one simple fact. Disney doesn't know how many folks have given up on them because of their drop in quality. There's no Power Point that can be shown to prove that XXX number of guests are no longer coming because of any changes, cutbacks etc ... I admit I don't know how many people have given up on the Mouse or cut back visits ... but the thing is, neither does Disney.

But I talk to a lot of people. People who aren't Disney nuts ... people who likely don't have a clue sites like this even exist ... and I've heard enough tell me they haven't been to Disney in a while and see no reason to return ... or others who hadn't been in years and were very unhappy to see the new lean and mean 21st century WDW.

Again, I have no idea how significant this number is ... but Mickey and Iger don't either.

Our criticism of Disney hasn't made a dent and it's my firm belief that WDW will continue to increase its success come the end of the financial crisis. The lack of an internet 20 years ago meant the average fan was less-informed and so wouldn't know about refurb budgets or anything behind-the-scenes -- much like the general public now, they'd visit WDW, have fun and be blissfully unaware. Again, we've changed more than Disney have: we're more knowledgeable, more cynical and more nostalgic than ever, and we have a forum to tell the whole world.

I think Disney fans are more knowledgeable now, absolutely. But is the general public? I'm not so sure.

Are people more cynical overall today? Yeah. I'd have to agree with that. The 21st century hasn't been a great period between terrorist attacks, economic disaster and scandals in everything from baseball to politics.

So that should carry over to Disney too. And really when you go from PoC to Stitch's Great Belch-off ... from Beauty and the Beast to Bambi 2 or Cinderella 3 ... from EPCOT Center to DCA or DSP ... from monorails and watercraft to buses ... etc ... well, why wouldn't Disney fans be cynical.

In 1989 I was the equivalent to a foaming fanboi Disney can do no wrong management apologist ... the thing is, though, there wasn't much (even now looking back) that Disney should have been criticized for. It was a period of amazing growth, creativity, quality and VISION. 2009? Not so much.

That's true whether the Internet was around or not.

 

[jt04]

My response would be what amazing new projects? At WDW? There aren't ANY!

New timeshares? Rehabs to existing attractions? Stitch's Dance Party?

There aren't any major investment or reinvestment projects going on in the whole P&R division unless you bring in things like the two new cruise ships or the DCA makeover ... things that had financing lined up long before anyone admitted the economy was even remotely having problems.

I am no financial wiz by any stretch but I can read an annual or quarterly report and the responses to them by both the company officials and Wall Street analysts.

I see Lee has 'splained the situation in more detail and since I agree with him I really don't have anything else to add right now.

I guess most responsible companies have pulled into their shells a bit on any major investments. Seems prudent.

 

[MousDad]

Does anyone know for certain that the new DC resort is going to be a DVC property (or the Hawaii one for that matter)?

There is no reference in any of Disney's public releases that this property is going to be a DVC resort. Yet everyone keeps referring to it as the new DC DVC.

I'm asking because, if Disney thinks they're going to fund the DC property on DVC sales, they might want to reconsider. First, the property location is nothing even remotely resembling a place that anyone would want to regularly return to as a vacation destination. Second, DC itself is not such a location either. We complain about WDW not having new offerings - the National Mall doesn't change that much from decade to decade. And no, Lincoln does not really get up and walk around.

The National Harbor is a convention center development, with a smattering of residential and commercial interest, and virtually no entertainment.

This is my guess: Disney's new property, if it gets built, is going to primarily marketed to conventioners and tourists as a regular resort destination, with the supplement of DVC points transfers.

I was just wondering if anyone knew for certain this was proposed to be built under the arm of DVC.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

It is my understanding that the free dining promotion has not sold nearly as well as Disney management was hoping, so maybe they will take that as a clue as to how many people don't think the price point is worth the product they are receiving anymore.

 

[mickeyandkrunch]

Please don't forget about the other smaller projects going on.

CBR Re-themed 1728 rooms
Pirate Rooms added 387 Rooms
Beach Club rehab last year 894 room
Boardwalk last year
Coranado Currently being rethemed 2200 room (rumered to move to Deluxe List when finished)
Beach Club Villas currently underway
Wilderness Lodge last year
Boardwalk Villas starts next week
Yacht Club starts June 22

Perhaps Disney is spending money on different areas that Uni has sub-leased.

 

[Pete C]

MousDad hit the nail on the head. I haven't yet taken the time to bash this Disney "DC" project specifically, but what the??? Disney would have to be on CRACK to open a DVC in DC. I'm sorry...yes, DC is a must-visit.....Once. I don't know anyone, and I mean anyone at all, that even talks about vacationing there. Most Americans have been there when they were little as part of a school trip. Now, since that is the case and families look to do things with their kids on vacations, why on Earth would they put a time share in this city? I guess they want to offer different places for people to spend points, but this is hardly the area for a resort. It's more of a sight-seeing kind of vacation, not a relaxing one. The weather also sucks for a good portion of the year. It's a terrible idea. I don't see why people would spend points on this instead of just grabbing a Hilton or something as close to downtown as possible. If anything, it should be a standard Hotel.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Please don't forget about the other smaller projects going on.

CBR Re-themed 1728 rooms
Pirate Rooms added 387 Rooms
Beach Club rehab last year 894 room
Boardwalk last year
Coranado Currently being rethemed 2200 room (rumered to move to Deluxe List when finished)
Beach Club Villas currently underway
Wilderness Lodge last year
Boardwalk Villas starts next week
Yacht Club starts June 22

Perhaps Disney is spending money on different areas that Uni has sub-leased.

Given that many of them are DVC location for which the mouse charges a maintenance fee Id hope that they are maintaining them

 

[GothMickey]

It is my understanding that the free dining promotion has not sold nearly as well as Disney management was hoping, so maybe they will take that as a clue as to how many people don't think the price point is worth the product they are receiving anymore.

Disney would spin blaming it on the economy and down attendace, despite the dining being free.

 

[jakeman]

So the bad economy is just spin now? Interesting how it is used to justify somethings, but then completely ignored when it doesn't support an arguement.

All the quality in the world doesn't matter when there is no one to buy your product.

There is no way to know how much of the downturn for Disney (who, as far as I know, has done comparitively well) is because of internal policies versus the recession.

If we saw this type of movement 3 years ago when everything was relatively fine then we could burn the place down because of quality.

There are just too many factors to nerdrage at TDO all the time.

 

[WildcatDen]

dont you think that spells trouble?

Nope. I am fairly certain, in the Queens English, T-H-A-T spells "that".

:shrug:

 

[Fun2BFree]

Nope. I am fairly certain, in the Queens English, T-H-A-T spells "that".

:shrug:

*Golf clap*

 

[fosse76]

The pyro excuse is a weak one. They don't have enough in the park to keep it open later.

Animals do not respond well to loud noises...and can develop harmful nervous conditions as a result. Debris from fireworks (they ARE pollution, don't forget) cannot be controlled in its entirety and could potentially end up in animal exhibits (where they may inadvertently digest it). Not saying it would happen, but the possibility exists. So Disney had an absolute legitimate excuse to cancel the fireworks shows. Just because you think it's a lame excuse does not make it any less legitimate.

But I agree...the reason it closes early is because there just isn't enough in the parks for people to do. A lot of people here believe rides are secondary to the experience...but that's the reason people most people go to any theme park, and Disney is no exception. Maybe not any specific ride (i.e., they aren't saying "we just have to get to DW to ride Small World"), but people in general are there because they have rides. And Animal Kingdom has few and far between (of course, the Studios is even worse off...If there weren't any rides at Disney's Hollywood Studios, I bet attendance would be lower than a seasonal amusement park in Alaska).

Joe Rohde and his WDI team did an amazing job on DAK. The place just oozes atmosphere and the detailing is pretty much the best in Orlando and blows away say MK.

I agree...despite lacking attractions, DAK is abslutely phenomenal. Not $75/day phenomenal, but still my favorite park.

I'm not thrilled with either CTX or Forbidden Mountain (yeah, I like their real names better), but they aren't crap. And they would be far better if park ops gave a damn about maintaining them.

Agree...though I'm not sure what you mean by their "real names." The official names are Dinosaur and Expedition Everest-Legend of the Forbidden Mountain.

I realize DAK isn't for everyone. Many people, sadly, believe if it isn't Mickey, Belle, Nemo, Woody, Pooh, Tink and Goofy than it isn't Disney.

And that is exactly how Disney gets its reputation as being only for kids.

 

[GothMickey]

Agree...though I'm not sure what you mean by their "real names." The official names are Dinosaur and Expedition Everest-Legend of the Forbidden Mountain.

Well, Dinosaur opened as CTX (Countdown to Extinction) and Everest, I think, was supposed to be called Forbidden Mountain, not Expedition Everest: Legend of the Forbidden Mountain.

 

[jt04]

Does anyone know for certain that the new DC resort is going to be a DVC property (or the Hawaii one for that matter)?

There is no reference in any of Disney's public releases that this property is going to be a DVC resort. Yet everyone keeps referring to it as the new DC DVC.

I'm asking because, if Disney thinks they're going to fund the DC property on DVC sales, they might want to reconsider. First, the property location is nothing even remotely resembling a place that anyone would want to regularly return to as a vacation destination. Second, DC itself is not such a location either. We complain about WDW not having new offerings - the National Mall doesn't change that much from decade to decade. And no, Lincoln does not really get up and walk around.

The National Harbor is a convention center development, with a smattering of residential and commercial interest, and virtually no entertainment.

This is my guess: Disney's new property, if it gets built, is going to primarily marketed to conventioners and tourists as a regular resort destination, with the supplement of DVC points transfers.

I was just wondering if anyone knew for certain this was proposed to be built under the arm of DVC.

MousDad hit the nail on the head. I haven't yet taken the time to bash this Disney "DC" project specifically, but what the??? Disney would have to be on CRACK to open a DVC in DC. I'm sorry...yes, DC is a must-visit.....Once. I don't know anyone, and I mean anyone at all, that even talks about vacationing there. Most Americans have been there when they were little as part of a school trip. Now, since that is the case and families look to do things with their kids on vacations, why on Earth would they put a time share in this city? I guess they want to offer different places for people to spend points, but this is hardly the area for a resort. It's more of a sight-seeing kind of vacation, not a relaxing one. The weather also sucks for a good portion of the year. It's a terrible idea. I don't see why people would spend points on this instead of just grabbing a Hilton or something as close to downtown as possible. If anything, it should be a standard Hotel.

Where to start?

I have been to DC many times and have literally only scratched the surface of things to see. The area where the DVC is going is a nice area that is growing fast, including the complex Disney has bought in to. It is close to the metro which opens up all of the DC area to visitors.

Nothing new on the mall? That is just so wrong it is laughable. I could write three paragraphs on what is new at just the Smithsonian museums both on the mall and in the area.

Mount Vernon has not one but two new museums and they are continuing to add exhibits every year.

The Capitol building has just added a new massive visitor center too.

There is a new and compelling WWll memorial.

There is a new Martin Luther King memorial being built.

I love this new DVC offering. Can't wait to see what the future holds.

Thanks Jay! I see where you are going and I share your vision!:sohappy:


PS- the budget for these new ventures has NOTHING to do with the theme parks. I guess that has to be repeated over and over and over.:brick: