Two Spirited Quickees...Imagination closing

[aladdin2007]

I touched on this in a earlier post of mine in this thread.

There was at the time some political moves going on, and in some cases it was becoming a game for some to see how many attractions/projects they could replace/remove/ re-do with their own efforts.

I am not at all saying it was any one person...or who it may have been, but there was indeed efforts made to discredit and 'disown' others.
Maybe even try to discourage them enough so they would want to leave.
All part of the harsh environment they had to live and work in back then.

In creative organizations there can be a lot of jealously and animosity floating about within certain groups of people...and WDI is no different.

In my own personal opinion, i think there was a real effort to try to 'kick someone hard where it hurts while they were down' in a attempt to oust them.
The timing of the Original JII removal with another project and resulting drama going on in within some areas of the company seems to give me that impression.

Again, only my own personal opinion.

Its just as bad today dont you think, if not worse now in some ways? I could pinpoint with exact names but will refrain. Some of you can probably figure them out anyway.

 

[Figments Friend]

Its just as bad today dont you think, if not worse now in some ways? I could pinpoint with exact names but will refrain. Some of you can probably figure them out anyway.

In some respects i can agree ...the atmosphere has changed dramatically over the last 15 to 20 years.
The attitude and general approach is different now to some extent, but that is to be expected when you are dealing with changes and in some cases non-changes.

Too much internal friction places people against each other, and in turn, becomes a real dis-service to the creative productivity.
It can also ruin the flow of ideas.
People feel suppressed..or pressured.. and withhold suggestions.

This is not how it should be, but sadly is in a lot of creative organizations.
In reality there should be a free flowing atmosphere that encourages as many views as possible on any given project.
That is not always the case for a multitude of reasons, some of which are very realistic and valid ones.
It is when a project is deliberately kept away from someone in particular, or a team of people on purpose strictly for political or 'settling the score' type of reasons that it becomes a real issue, in my opinion.

There has always been ups and downs, as it is within any organization.
There are some bright lights still there amidst the fog, so there is always hope that things will improve.

Time changes all things.

 

[BobConnor]

I always thought it was Tom Fitzgerald because of how much he hated Tony Baxter. And I can't think of a more pure and brutal way of saying "I really really really really really hate you" than what happened to Tony's baby.

Well then Tom must have hated Tony very, very badly to destroy expensive sets and animatronics and artwork so that the original could not be restored. I know things like that are done in business.

For example, Maytag when it was a separate company used to own a plant in Herrin IL that used to make Norge washers and dryers and the Maytag "Atlantis" models. When Whirlpool took over Maytag, part of the deal was that Herrin had to be destroyed so no other company could buy it and make Norge ever again. I think something like that is why there is nothing left of original Imagination and it will take big bucks to reconstruct it. Again, the hate must have been intense.

 

[Beholder]

Some years ago there was talk afoot of the reason for it just 'sitting there' was because the creatives who wished to re-do the Imagination Pavilion the 'right way' were awaiting the best opportune moment to score the largest budget possible.

They had a decent concept for a complete and through 're-Imagineering', but it required some big capex and the suits in charge of the purse strings were not seeing it as priority at that point.
So the 'waiting game' was said to partly be because of a desire for this team to wait until they could be handed a large sum to do the Pavilion justice.

It has yet to have happened.

I can hear some folks now muttering...."yeah right...they will be waiting forever for THAT to happen..."

Well...here we are then.
15 years since the removal of the Original JII.

Ouch...

That is one 'anniversary' not worth celebrating in any way....
EXCEPT with a complete Pavilion overhaul.

Waiting for a large enough budget, waiting for the "right" time, waiting for the political winds to shift, after awhile, it just seems like excuses for them NOT doing anything. I don't mean you personally, but TDO or whoever is ultimately responsible. At some point the excuses must end and a decision must be made. Sounds easy just siting here in my home, and knowing about zero when it comes to business, but I've seen two of our three local McDonalds go through complete tear downs and rebuilds in the last year due to a need to modernize. It's different, can't compare, I know, but I do expect a little better from a company that bears Walts name.

 

[Beholder]

Well then Tom must have hated Tony very, very badly to destroy expensive sets and animatronics and artwork so that the original could not be restored. I know things like that are done in business.

For example, Maytag when it was a separate company used to own a plant in Herrin IL that used to make Norge washers and dryers and the Maytag "Atlantis" models. When Whirlpool took over Maytag, part of the deal was that Herrin had to be destroyed so no other company could buy it and make Norge ever again. I think something like that is why there is nothing left of original Imagination and it will take big bucks to reconstruct it. Again, the hate must have been intense.

If any of that's true, people acting like 5 year olds for revenge for some perceived slight, then Disney has deep, deep problems. Sounds like a corporate culture that has allowed and continues to tolerate behavior that is that self destructive is ripe for a culling. Unbelievable. Again, I don't know if that scenario is true, but sounds like as good a reason as any. And it's pretty sad that I'm willing to believe that about my beloved Disney.

 

[Goofyernmost]

They do that a lot. If you remember just before they announced that they were getting the Nemo sub ride back in DL all of a sudden, they filled in the lagoon at WDW and tore out the building so that there would be no chance that fans might apply enough pressure to duplicate it in WDW. It's a sad company sometimes.

 

[Beholder]

They do that a lot. If you remember just before they announced that they were getting the Nemo sub ride back in DL all of a sudden, they filled in the lagoon at WDW and tore out the building so that there would be no chance that fans might apply enough pressure to duplicate it in WDW. It's a sad company sometimes.

You know, that's actually something I hadn't considered. A preemptive strike against the WDW fan base.

 

[lazyboy97o]

They do that a lot. If you remember just before they announced that they were getting the Nemo sub ride back in DL all of a sudden, they filled in the lagoon at WDW and tore out the building so that there would be no chance that fans might apply enough pressure to duplicate it in WDW. It's a sad company sometimes.

You know, that's actually something I hadn't considered. A preemptive strike against the WDW fan base.

The Florida submarines had already been tossed out well before the lagoon was filled in whereas at Disneyland they were parked in the caverns and left because the Submarine Voyage closed with the promise of a new attraction.

 

[Goofyernmost]

The Florida submarines had already been tossed out well before the lagoon was filled in whereas at Disneyland they were parked in the caverns and left because the Submarine Voyage closed with the promise of a new attraction.

I'm pretty sure that the current subs are new. The old ones would have been just rust buckets by the time they opened Nemo. Seems to me that I remember seeing pictures of them being delivered around 2006 or so. I could be wrong about that, but it doesn't seem economically wise to use the old ones, heck they were older then WDW's.

 

[BobConnor]

They do that a lot. If you remember just before they announced that they were getting the Nemo sub ride back in DL all of a sudden, they filled in the lagoon at WDW and tore out the building so that there would be no chance that fans might apply enough pressure to duplicate it in WDW. It's a sad company sometimes.

But WHY? If Disney psses off enough people they are going to start going to closer places like Dutch Wonderland and then eventually nobody will have a job. At least that is how American business is supposed to work. As for 20,000 leagues, might it have been possible to have made it an extra-fee experience, like some parks have, to reduce the crowds and help pay the expenses? meanwhile, also make a transparent tube walk through of 20,000 so that people who don't pay a fee can still get some of the experience. After all, the Pittsburgh Zoo has a tube why can't Disney? It sounds like these imagineers not only want to upset each other but they want to upset customers too.

 

[Goofyernmost]

But WHY? If Disney psses off enough people they are going to start going to closer places like Dutch Wonderland and then eventually nobody will have a job. At least that is how American business is supposed to work. As for 20,000 leagues, might it have been possible to have made it an extra-fee experience, like some parks have, to reduce the crowds and help pay the expenses? meanwhile, also make a transparent tube walk through of 20,000 so that people who don't pay a fee can still get some of the experience. After all, the Pittsburgh Zoo has a tube why can't Disney? It sounds like these imagineers not only want to upset each other but they want to upset customers too.

Oh, they come up with hundreds of excuses why it was closed for their safety at WDW. The cost to redo that ride when the last thing that WDW wanted was another high maintenance sub ride. Cost isn't the only consideration. The Pain In the Butt (PITA) factor is also a major decision maker. A walk through would not have worked for that ride without redoing the entire thing. When the subs were used there were duplicate scenes on each side of the sub so that everyone was seeing the same thing at the same time. Besides the entire image could not be duplicated if you were virtually walking under the north pole ice cap. There would be people that were claustrophobic having panic attacks due to the length of it or being deprived of the ability to see it. The water was way to shallow to keep the illusion going. It worked OK with the subs because it was hard to see the surface of the water.

I don't have any hard evidence that that is what Disney did, but the timing of the destruction was highly suspicious. That thing sat there for, I think, nine years without anyone caring, then all of a sudden it had to be filled in only to be replaced by about a 10th of the size Pooh playground. And like magic, just a short time later, it was announced that the Nemo Ride was going to be built at the old sub location in DL. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'm pretty sure that the current subs are new. The old ones would have been just rust buckets by the time they opened Nemo. Seems to me that I remember seeing pictures of them being delivered around 2006 or so. I could be wrong about that, but it doesn't seem economically wise to use the old ones, heck they were older then WDW's.

They're the same ride vehicles from 1959 complete with their grandfathered accessibility.

 

[flynnibus]

I'm pretty sure that the current subs are new. The old ones would have been just rust buckets by the time they opened Nemo. Seems to me that I remember seeing pictures of them being delivered around 2006 or so. I could be wrong about that, but it doesn't seem economically wise to use the old ones, heck they were older then WDW's.

No - same subs overhauled. The DL ones weren't fiberglass like WDW were.

 

[Goofyernmost]

No - same subs overhauled. The DL ones weren't fiberglass like WDW were.

I stand corrected. Thanks! However, that still, in my opinion is not the reason for filling in the lagoon. It was simply easier to say that there no longer was a sub area then to explain that they didn't want to spend money on new subs. No place...no argument!

 

[George]

I am now thinking of writing a letter to Burbank stating that the submarine ride at Disneyland Florida has been closed for refurbishment since 1994 and I am expecting it to be in tip top shape when it re-opens since I'm assuming all this time has been spent power washing and sweeping.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I am now thinking of writing a letter to Burbank stating that the submarine ride at Disneyland Florida has been closed for refurbishment since 1994 and I am expecting it to be in tip top shape when it re-opens since I'm assuming all this time has been spent power washing and sweeping.

Hey George...brace yourself for the correction police who are absolutely giddy over that post. They will enter the discussion soon.

 

[George]

Hey George...brace yourself for the correction police who are absolutely giddy over that post. They will enter the discussion soon.

I can only hope.

 

[Figments Friend]

OOo! Ooo!
I want to go to Disneyland Florida !!

 

[lazyboy97o]

OOo! Ooo!
I want to go to Disneyland Florida !!

Disneyworld LA is better.

 

[montyz81]

So, subs aside, any concrete news on Imagination? Is it closing? Is there going to be a refurb? Is there a new sponso? What is the latest?