Two Spirited Quickees...Imagination closing

[Prototype82]

Good thing I can see lights like that at a few places locally.

I have no idea where you live, but I'm jealous

 

[marni1971]

I rode the Cronkite version first (numerous times, likely as much as if not more than the 94 version). The reason 94 version is better to me is the new narration, new scenes in the descent (coupled with the lighting and fiber optic effects) and superior musical score. Though I've nothing against Tomorrow's Child, I like it and would love to hear it replace the current version's music..

Indeed. As perfect and awesome as Tomorrow's Child was in that scenario, for the rest of the 1986 SSE the inride music (if one can call it that) was still from Perrins 1982 version.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

Indeed. As perfect and awesome as Tomorrow's Child was in that scenario, for the rest of the 1986 SSE the inride music (if one can call it that) was still from Perrins 1982 version.

Interesting. I never saw the Perrins version.

I do really like Tomorrow's Child, I want to stress that. It's a great song. I just like the 94 version's ending theme more. It hit me on an emotional level that brought chills to my spine and even got me misty eyed. Watching your tribute for it, I still get that as an adult (perhaps more so than before due to knowing what we lost).

I would again though take Tomorrow's Child over the current incarnation without question. If they just added that theme to the descent sequence, that alone would be a massive improvement over what was there (though they should just re-score and re-narrate the entire thing if they restored that song, the rest of the current ride's music and narration would still clash badly and feel cheap next to it).

At least Spaceship Earth I still see as having the potential to be salvaged and remade to be great again. Giving it a new good narration and musical score wouldn't be all that difficult. Fix the descent sequence along with the music and narration and we're pretty much good to go. Just some minor tweaks from there to plus it beyond that. The ride at least isn't completely ruined beyond saving like the other three classics were (and thank god Time Racers never happened). Enough of the original ride still remains that they could make it wonderful again if they wanted to.

We'll see what happens with Imagination. At the very least it shouldn't be hard to immensely improve upon the abysmal garbage that is the current incarnation. Hopefully we get something at least closer to the original version's quality, hope they give Tony Baxter some freedom on the project if he's involved.

 

[aladdin2007]

Interesting. I never saw the Perrins version.

I do really like Tomorrow's Child, I want to stress that. It's a great song. I just like the 94 version's ending theme more. It hit me on an emotional level that brought chills to my spine and even got me misty eyed. Watching your tribute for it, I still get that as an adult (perhaps more so than before due to knowing what we lost).

I would again though take Tomorrow's Child over the current incarnation without question. If they just added that theme to the descent sequence, that alone would be a massive improvement over what was there.

At least Spaceship Earth I still see as having the potential to be salvaged and remade to be great again. Giving it a new good narration and musical score wouldn't be all that difficult. Fix the descent sequence along with the music and narration and we're pretty much good to go. Just some minor tweaks from there to plus it beyond that. The ride at least isn't completely ruined beyond saving like the other three classics were (and thank god Time Racers never happened). Enough of the original ride still remains that they could make it wonderful again if they wanted to.

Its obvious that TDO and Siemens don't want to I guess, but one hopes there are people still in Imagineering who would love to get in there.

 

[flynnibus]

I happened to notice Body Wars after I had been there a couple of times. Remember no internet, discussion boards etc. during that time.

But you did have park maps! I agree with you - The two anchor attractions did suffer from poor marking of the entrances and substance once inside the pavilion IMO.

 

[flynnibus]

I still see a constant stream of people riding Living With the Land, even in this day and age. Again, doesn't get massive lines because it's so efficient. But i've seldom if ever ridden it with a whole lot of seats being empty. The same is true of Pirate and Small World (both incredibly popular and well loved rides), I rarely ever wait in line for them but there's unquestionably always a steady stream of people riding both. Their efficiency and capacity eat up people like mad regardless of their popularity.

Even the people eaters get lines when popular.. that's why EPCOT had such massive queuing capability - capability used quite extensively back in the 80s. Capability - that hasn't been needed at those original pavilions in decades. The attractions didn't magically double or triple their capacity.. so why is it the extensive queues are no longer needed?

And if you want to have full boats.. all you need to do is reduce the # of boats out. I shouldn't need to remind you that attraction capacity is a scaler thing in most of the attractions.

I didn't even mention Wonders of Life. I was talking about Horizons, SSE, Imagination and WoM. Try again.

No? Even after I quoted you in the very post you replied... Here it is again for you..

That's the case for SSE, Imagination, Horizons and WoM anyways. But I even recall there always being a lot of people in Wonders of Life and the Land.

But it seems you think Disney rebooted most of FW just for fun.. since obviously all the attractions were plenty popular yet Disney mysteriously shut them down. Perplexing..

LOL no, not at all. Fastpass in my experience (and others on this board who are more in a position to know than I) can and usually does multiply line lengths by several times what it would have been otherwise. I believe they've tested Haunted Mansion off and on, and fastpass always massively increases the wait time whenever they do (not sure whether it has become a full time thing yet, I haven't been to WDW for over a year now). Fastpass has the potential to easily take a ride that would normally have a 10-15 minute wait and multiply that amount by anywhere from 3-6 times. That is not an exaggeration either.

Wow.. I wish I visited WDW during those years everything was only a 10-15 min wait.. since all these hour wait times are fictious FP inflated times of '3-6'x Disney must have been clueless building all those queues and preshows if everything was going to have a max wait of 15-20mins.

FP will increase wait times in the Standby line for obvious reasons.. you can't have people enter the line ahead of you and not increase a wait of someone in the standby.. but the hyperboyle is out of control. Your logic also overlooks the reality that the choice of FP can actually boost demand for an attraction because of the psychological lure of no wait. So if all you do is look at standby lines - you aren't seeing the entire picture which is actual guest counts and how the two scenarios compare. You might as well say 'The sun increases the standby lines' because good weather can boost park attendance. It's correlation - but not able to correctly quantify the causation because of lack of information. Standby lines as a measure of anything are just a piece of the puzzle.

 

[flynnibus]

Speaking of tax benefits (or other benefits)...Something I'm not sure of with that pavilion is if there are any federal grants / tax benefits that it is eligible for. I know the aquarium here in Atlanta, while pulling around 5 million visitors a year, does get federal grants / aid for it's work with endangered species research, etc.

I know at one point they were doing some work like this in the Seas, I don't know about now though.

I was actually thinking about that with The Land.. since in theory there is research going on there.

 

[flynnibus]

1)SEAS may not of been interesting after they cut stuff back
2)Nemo was the dumbing down of SEAs. The thing is though it lost the message it was "trying to preach".
3)You might as well design a more organic SEAs and move it to DAK.
4)Its the reason why guests should expect an edutainment park in Epcot ... not some cartoon menagerie to cater to the Honey Boo Boos of the world.

I don't fault the Nemo addition when it comes to the 'death of the living seas' - the pavilion was a shell of itself long before Nemo was added. The operational changes like removing the hydrolaters at the exit.. effectively making the exit an entrance.. the reduction in interactivity in the pavilion... the entire abandonment of the seabase alpha concept. And honestly the sealife in the tank itself seemed boring and bland in a lot of ways too.

I like Nemo for what it is.. and it does add a reason to visit the pavilion again.. its just sad to compare to what the pavilion used to be. The death of the seas (IMO) was a combination of reductions, abandoning the show, and the outside world catching up. The seas aquarium just isn't that awe inspiring. And hiding the omnimover tunnels doesn't help that at all!!

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

And if you want to have full boats.. all you need to do is reduce the # of boats out. I shouldn't need to remind you that attraction capacity is a scaler thing in most of the attractions.

But it seems you think Disney rebooted most of FW just for fun.. since obviously all the attractions were plenty popular yet Disney mysteriously shut them down. Perplexing..

While excuse may hold some water for boats, i'd imagine it doesn't ring very true for omnimovers.

There were several reasons Disney wanted to reboot FW not even all related to popularity-
1- Sponsorship deals, either new sponsors or ones that wanted something different (i'm guessing GM had a major say in why Test Track happened, they were at least responsible for paying for a large part of the recent overhaul).
2- Disney wanted to have attractions that would be far easier and less expensive to maintain from a show perspective. It's quite obvious that immense quantities of animatronics and elaborate physical show sets are something that the present company clearly doesn't like. It's not something you really see much anymore (and the few rides remaining that still have such elements have been neglected over the past two decades and often had numerous broken figures and unclean show sets).

Numerous insiders on this site have confirmed countless times that the primary reason Horizons closed was due to losing its sponsor GE (not a sinkhole or even a lack of popularity). They still kept it open seasonally while they were working on a replacement too. And as I said, Imagination's popularity was sabotaged by the company intentionally in order to have an excuse to close it and build something far simpler and easier to manage.

No? Even after I quoted you in the very post you replied... Here it is again for you.

And yet closing the pavilion down entirely didn't do anything to boost its attendance dude. Neither was shuttering the top floor of Imagination. Or are you going to try to claim those were brilliant moves by the company to improve the park's entertainment offerings? It gave them a good central point for festival milking though, so i'm sure they're completely satisfied as long as that's still popular.

Wow.. I wish I visited WDW during those years everything was only a 10-15 min wait.. since all these hour wait times are fictious FP inflated times of '3-6'x Disney must have been clueless building all those queues and preshows if everything was going to have a max wait of 15-20mins.

You're simply nuts if you don't think fastpass artificially inflates wait times by a huge amount. Disneyland goers especially are very aware of how the system affects lines negatively. You can argue all you like about exactly how much you think it affects the lines, but it does make them much longer regardless of what numbers you put on it. Those are my own observations, and i've witnessed the same rides many times with and without the fastpass system to know how it affects the lines.

I will say though that preshows can slow things down as well. It was quite often that the cast members would just let people bypass the preshow for Test Track in order to keep the line moving (they'd just keep both doors open and let people pass through without watching). Same I hear has been happening to Haunted Mansion, they usher people through the first room to get people through faster. And a similar thing was done to the Norway ride, they'd just keep the doors open to the movie theater to allow people to pass through and not have to wait after getting off.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

You're simply nuts if you don't think fastpass artificially inflates wait times by a huge amount. Disneyland goers especially are very aware of how the system affects lines negatively. You can argue all you like about exactly how much you think it affects the lines, but it does make them much longer regardless of what numbers you put on it. Those are my own observations, and i've witnessed the same rides many times with and without the fastpass system to know how it affects the lines.

Example: TSM in DCA during high season, midday: 40 minutes (no fastpasses)
TSM in DHS during low season midday: 120+ minutes

Point. Don't get me wrong; I like the Fastpass option, but it definitely inflates wait times.

 

[Admiral01]

EPCOT alienated alot of people.. many didn't like the edu-tainment aspect, it didn't offer any of the outlets for thrill seekers, much of it was over the heads of the younger part of the family. EPCOT was adult.. and put all it's eggs in that basket. The lack of diversity hurt it. Then add in that the rides were hit or miss when it came to repeatability in the same day.. people wouldn't hop off UoE and get right back in line Then they aged and lacked any real updates (sans SSE). The rapid evolution in consumer sediment, style, technology awareness made EPCOT's FW age in less than a decade. Instead of timeless things.. in less than 10 years they not only were out of date, they REEKED of out of date (much like CoP's finale). Not so much that the concepts presented of the future were already achieved - but the optimism and targets described were a bit passe.

Sorry to edit your whole post down to this one paragraph, but I wanted to respond/add directly to it. Also, I'm not attacking your post...it just got me thinking.

Part of EPCOT's charm and draw was it's maturity. I don't think it was too adult for kids to enjoy as many have said, but that is my opinion - as a consumer. Besides, by changing the park so incredibly much, it has alienated those of us who did love it in the 80s and early 90s. My parents, for example, loved EPCOT in the 80s and 90s, but they rarely go to WDW any more because it no longer appeals to them. Too much dumbing down of the attractions they loved.

I really don't like the attitude of those who think that appealing to small children, ala The Seas with Nemo or most of Magic Kingdom, is worth alienating the adult crowd who actually control the money. Maybe EPCOT needed a little more diversity, but it could have been done in a much better, higher quality way. There is certainly a strong market for kid-things at WDW, but there is a market for more mature things too, however the mature things are often the things that are destroyed. I don't complain about MK being geared too much toward kids the same way people complain about EPCOT being too geared toward adults. I've never once heard a CM tell me "MK needed more adult attractions, so we ripped out Peter Pan and replaced it with something more mature - but that is what I hear about classic EPCOT attractions. I was told, point blank by a CM, that The Living Seas was Nemoified because they needed to have some kid-friendly attractions at EPCOT... Disney compromised its creative integrity to appeal to the masses.

EPCOT did have a thrill ride in the form of Body Wars. I am sure some thought the park needed more thrills. I didn't. Besides, there are several thrills just a short boat ride away from EPCOT. Not everything has to appeal to everyone. I don't fault WDW for building Mission:SPACE. I fault them for destroying Horizons in order to replace it with MS, in the same way they destroyed Imagination 1.0 and instead gave us a crappy, sorter, less interesting attraction...twice. On that same thought, I dislike the Value resorts, but I don't complain about them because building the Value resorts didn't destroy higher quality offerings on property. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is not the way to maintain high quality, engaging, interesting attractions. It seems that those of us who prefer things like original EPCOT are often told that we are wrong, and that EPCOT needed more kids rides. I don't like, as a consumer, being told that I am wrong.

If lack of diversity hurt EPCOT (only having Omnimovers with intelligent attractions), then lack of diversity (only targeting little kids) is going to hurt WDW. I know we (two adults in their 30s with no kids nor any plan of kids) don't visit as much as we would have in the 80s and 90s with the offerings that were geared toward a large diverse population, instead of just families with kids. I prefer quality over quantity. Sadly, WDW has been reducing both quantity and quality at EPCOT over the years. I hope TT 2.0 and the first half of SSE (and the 7DMT, and HM '07) are signs of things to come. I really do, because I really like visiting WDW.

If Horizons, WoM, UoE, Imagination, WoL, The Living Seas needed updates because of the speed of technology, then they should have gotten those updates. Refurbishing and updating an attraction isn't the same as gutting and changing the theme of the attraction.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

There is certainly a strong market for kid-things at WDW, but there is a market for more mature things too, however the mature things are often the things that are destroyed ... Disney compromised its creative integrity to appeal to the masses.

If lack of diversity hurt EPCOT (only having Omnimovers with intelligent attractions), then lack of diversity (only targeting little kids) is going to hurt WDW.

A lot of good stuff in your post but the points above I particularly agree with. This trend of focusing on princesses and Pixar and perfect photo-op meet and greets is going to be the death of WDW. Just look at any WDW ad in the past 5-7 years and its all you see. Yet WDW is so much more than its theme parks. From the spas to the dining to the shopping to the outdoor activities, there's a ton of stuff to see (and there used to be even more).

WDW was, and should be, the Vacation Kingdom; unfortunately its well on the way to becoming just the Magic Kingdom.

 

[Goofyernmost]

But you did have park maps! I agree with you - The two anchor attractions did suffer from poor marking of the entrances and substance once inside the pavilion IMO.

That is true, but even the maps did little to catch your attention as to the nature of the attractions. I don't always pay close attention to things but, I know that nothing was said by way of promotion, to make those don't miss attractions. They did that same thing with CoP. If they don't promote it, they don't generate excitement and they don't stay operational.

If anyone can explain to me how people know NOT to see an attraction if they have never seen it or even knew it existed before there arrival at WDW, I would be happy to listen to it. You can take any attraction that is performing marginally and I can almost guarantee that Disney has made no effort to convince you that you should see it. CoP, for example, has been a thorn in the side of management for years. They tried to kill it off and ran into heavy resistance from the fans. For once they listened and didn't shut it down. The frustrating part of the story is that they still have spent little to no money to make it presentable and yet, the darn thing just keeps running and running and running. It was designed and engineered by people that cared and built it to last. It has continued much to the consternation of the portion of management that want to see it dead and unfixable.

 

[Admiral01]

A lot of good stuff in your post but the points above I particularly agree with. This trend of focusing on princesses and Pixar and perfect photo-op meet and greets is going to be the death of WDW. Just look at any WDW ad in the past 5-7 years and its all you see. Yet WDW is so much more than its theme parks. From the spas to the dining to the shopping to the outdoor activities, there's a ton of stuff to see (and there used to be even more).

WDW was, and should be, the Vacation Kingdom; unfortunately its well on the way to becoming just the Magic Kingdom.

Totally agree. There is SO MUCH to do, but all the marketing ever does is largely focus on the Magic Kingdom. Of the experiences at WDW, we spend relatively little time at the MK. I have spent more time at California Grill and Boma than I have in MK over the last few trips. I spend more time at the pool at the Yacht and Beach Club Resort than I do in Fantasyland. I spend more on drinks than I do on Disney Parks merchandise and Photopass pictures combined (merch and pics = $0 for us). Mickey Mouse and a fiberglass castle is not why I visit WDW.

The Vacation Kingdom isn't what it used to be. George, do you hear that? Your resort is a shell of what it once was. The prologue of WDW is seemingly stronger than the promise. That should never be the case.

 

[flynnibus]

Sorry to edit your whole post down to this one paragraph, but I wanted to respond/add directly to it. Also, I'm not attacking your post...it just got me thinking.

Part of EPCOT's charm and draw was it's maturity. I don't think it was too adult for kids to enjoy as many have said, but that is my opinion - as a consumer. Besides, by changing the park so incredibly much, it has alienated those of us who did love it in the 80s and early 90s. My parents, for example, loved EPCOT in the 80s and 90s, but they rarely go to WDW any more because it no longer appeals to them. Too much dumbing down of the attractions they loved.

I really don't like the attitude of those who think that appealing to small children, ala The Seas with Nemo or most of Magic Kingdom, is worth alienating the adult crowd who actually control the money. Maybe EPCOT needed a little more diversity, but it could have been done in a much better, higher quality way. There is certainly a strong market for kid-things at WDW, but there is a market for more mature things too, however the mature things are often the things that are destroyed. I don't complain about MK being geared too much toward kids the same way people complain about EPCOT being too geared toward adults. I've never once heard a CM tell me "MK needed more adult attractions, so we ripped out Peter Pan and replaced it with something more mature - but that is what I hear about classic EPCOT attractions. I was told, point blank by a CM, that The Living Seas was Nemoified because they needed to have some kid-friendly attractions at EPCOT... Disney compromised its creative integrity to appeal to the masses.

EPCOT did have a thrill ride in the form of Body Wars. I am sure some thought the park needed more thrills. I didn't. Besides, there are several thrills just a short boat ride away from EPCOT. Not everything has to appeal to everyone. I don't fault WDW for building Mission:SPACE. I fault them for destroying Horizons in order to replace it with MS, in the same way they destroyed Imagination 1.0 and instead gave us a crappy, sorter, less interesting attraction...twice. On that same thought, I dislike the Value resorts, but I don't complain about them because building the Value resorts didn't destroy higher quality offerings on property. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is not the way to maintain high quality, engaging, interesting attractions. It seems that those of us who prefer things like original EPCOT are often told that we are wrong, and that EPCOT needed more kids rides. I don't like, as a consumer, being told that I am wrong.

If lack of diversity hurt EPCOT (only having Omnimovers with intelligent attractions), then lack of diversity (only targeting little kids) is going to hurt WDW. I know we (two adults in their 30s with no kids nor any plan of kids) don't visit as much as we would have in the 80s and 90s with the offerings that were geared toward a large diverse population, instead of just families with kids. I prefer quality over quantity. Sadly, WDW has been reducing both quantity and quality at EPCOT over the years. I hope TT 2.0 and the first half of SSE (and the 7DMT, and HM '07) are signs of things to come. I really do, because I really like visiting WDW.

If Horizons, WoM, UoE, Imagination, WoL, The Living Seas needed updates because of the speed of technology, then they should have gotten those updates. Refurbishing and updating an attraction isn't the same as gutting and changing the theme of the attraction.

I'm being lazy in my quote because I'm on my phone...

Don't take my post as support of what changes they opted to go with, but simply why they felt change was needed. Much of what you are saying is about one extreme vs the other. That's why I said diversity is what was lacking. Range, not a of one or the other.

As much as we want to hold onto 'creative integrity' - the place is a business - not a gAllery or museum. It has to have a practicality where the place attracts spending customers. What Walt excelled with initially was designing attractions that the family enjoyed. That balance has proven difficult to replicate in our changing society

 

[flynnibus]

Example: TSM in DCA during high season, midday: 40 minutes (no fastpasses)
TSM in DHS during low season midday: 120+ minutes

Point. Don't get me wrong; I like the Fastpass option, but it definitely inflates wait times.

A fantastic example of using incomplete information with dissimilar experiments and claiming conclusive 'facts' based on comparing them. Thank you for illustrating for me the exact type of fallacies that plague the community.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

A fantastic example of using incomplete information with dissimilar experiments and claiming conclusive 'facts' based on comparing them. Thank you for illustrating for me the exact type of fallacies that plague the community.

Thank you for completely insulting the community just because they happen to disagree with you. We appreciate that so much.

 

[JenniferS]

Example: TSM in DCA during high season, midday: 40 minutes (no fastpasses)
TSM in DHS during low season midday: 120+ minutes

Point. Don't get me wrong; I like the Fastpass option, but it definitely inflates wait times.

Pretty sure the exorbitant wait times for TSMM have more to do with the lack of family-friendly rides at DHS, and less to do with FastPass.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

Pretty sure the exorbitant wait times for TSMM have more to do with the lack of family-friendly rides at DHS, and less to do with FastPass.

You could be right. There could be multiple reasons. Regardless, the lack of Fastpasses could be playing into the line. There's just such a great difference between the wait times. Perhaps if there were no Fastpasses, some people would normally would choose not to ride it, therefore the line would move faster. Just a theory. My opinion. It's been my experience, though, that stand by lines generally move faster when there are no Fastpasses, such as during EMH

Also, IMO, no ride is worth two hours in any park.

 

[flynnibus]

Thank you for completely insulting the community just because they happen to disagree with you. We appreciate that so much.

Logic and scientific method obviously aren't taught anymore

I'll answer this at a simple level for you. If you compare two things in completely different scenarios with different variables you don't account for- the two things are not the same.

Consider why soarin is so much more popular at Epcot too. And no it's not because of fp (both have it). It has to more to do with the types of other attractions around it (or more specifically... What is NOT there). Same key problems impact tsmm at Dhs.

But yeah, go ahead and claim that it's due to fp.

The same failed logic is always applied to hm at dlr too... Comparing the holiday overlays when they do offer fp vs the normal when they don't offer fp. They blame fp for huge lines... Completely ignoring the change in demand for the attraction during the overlay!!

Its this mistake of 'the tests are not the same test' that people make repeatedly. Which you conveniently demonstrated.