Two Spirited Quickees...Imagination closing

[StarWarsGirl]

Logic and scientific method obviously aren't taught anymore

I'll answer this at a simple level for you. If you compare two things in completely different scenarios with different variables you don't account for- the two things are not the same.

Consider why soarin is so much more popular at Epcot too. And no it's not because of fp (both have it). It has to more to do with the types of other attractions around it (or more specifically... What is NOT there). Same key problems impact tsmm at Dhs.

But yeah, go ahead and claim that it's due to fp.

The same failed logic is always applied to hm at dlr too... Comparing the holiday overlays when they do offer fp vs the normal when they don't offer fp. They blame fp for huge lines... Completely ignoring the change in demand for the attraction during the overlay!!

Its this mistake of 'the tests are not the same test' that people make repeatedly. Which you conveniently demonstrated.

If you read my post above, you will see that I was not claiming it was entirely due to Fastpasses, but you cannot deny that the Fastpasses don't play a role in it.

It's similar to the willingness to pay theory in economics. When you increase prices, less people are given an incentive to pay. But offer a discount to people willing to buy during a certain period or another incentive, and you have price discrimination and therefore more people buy the product.

So Disney, in essence, gives people a discount on their wait times. They have people who don't want to use the Fastpasses for whatever reason but still want to ride. Fine. They use standby. But then those who want to wait for a certain period of time, the discount, will get a fastpass and come back at a certain time. You therefore have increased ridership which in turn delays the standby time. By how much? That's unknown. It would depend on the amount of Fastpasses distributed among multiple other factors.

 

[JenniferS]

You could be right. There could be multiple reasons. Regardless, the lack of Fastpasses could be playing into the line. There's just such a great difference between the wait times. Perhaps if there were no Fastpasses, some people would normally would choose not to ride it, therefore the line would move faster. Just a theory. My opinion. It's been my experience, though, that stand by lines generally move faster when there are no Fastpasses, such as during EMH

Also, IMO, no ride is worth two hours in any park.

I absolutely agree with your last point. No ride is worth a two hour wait.

 

[HMF]

Indeed. As perfect and awesome as Tomorrow's Child was in that scenario, for the rest of the 1986 SSE the inride music (if one can call it that) was still from Perrins 1982 version.

I just recently listened to the 07 SSE Bruce Broughton score by itself without the narration and while the music is admittedly one of the relatively less painful aspects of the current SSE, It is rather underwhelming and is basically the same basic theme repeating itself up until the Renaissance scene. The 1994 score on the other hand combined with Irons narration was one of the most epic and emotional experiences I have ever had. That music captured and enhanced the aura of the attraction and it's message perfectly. It felt like an organic part of the attraction where the current score is basically an underscore to the often physically painful Judi Dench narration.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

I absolutely agree with your last point. No ride is worth a two hour wait.

I'm still amused that the waits for RSR are so long that they feel the need to sell drinks in line...

 

[flynnibus]

If you read my post above, you will see that I was not claiming it was entirely due to Fastpasses, but you cannot deny that the Fastpasses don't play a role in it.

Please stick to the context of the discussion...

Like I said before - of course fp is going to impact the wait in standby... By definition if you allow someone in front of you, you wait longer. But focusing only on the standby wait time is not a complete picture... And second, the claims of 3-6x increases in wait times as a rule of thumb for fp as 'fact' is in fact... Crap

 

[tissandtully]

I'm still amused that the waits for RSR are so long that they feel the need to sell drinks in line...

I remember working at IOA and selling drinks in the queue for Dudley on hot summer days. It was insane, soooo much cash, and that's why they do it.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

Please stick to the context of the discussion...

Like I said before - of course fp is going to impact the wait in standby... By definition if you allow someone in front of you, you wait longer. But focusing only on the standby wait time is not a complete picture... And second, the claims of 3-6x increases in wait times as a rule of thumb for fp as 'fact' is in fact... Crap

Only way to prove it is to do an experiment. You aren't necessarily wrong...but you're not necessarily right either. All I know is that the crazy people can stand in the long lines while I happily use my Fastpass.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

I remember working at IOA and selling drinks in the queue for Dudley on hot summer days. It was insane, soooo much cash, and that's why they do it.

It's exactly why they do it...they aren't dumb.

But I don't envy you for having to sell them, lol

 

[Admiral01]

I'm being lazy in my quote because I'm on my phone...

Don't take my post as support of what changes they opted to go with, but simply why they felt change was needed. Much of what you are saying is about one extreme vs the other. That's why I said diversity is what was lacking. Range, not a of one or the other.

As much as we want to hold onto 'creative integrity' - the place is a business - not a gAllery or museum. It has to have a practicality where the place attracts spending customers. What Walt excelled with initially was designing attractions that the family enjoyed. That balance has proven difficult to replicate in our changing society

I think you and I are likely in agreement on many things, and I don't take your post as supporting the changes. It was just a good jumping off point.

Creative integrity IS hard to hold on to for a business, especially a large business with shareholders, a board of directors, and a diverse portfolio of divisions. In a place like WDW, though, they are blessed with the ability to have an incredibly diverse offering, and that diversity has sadly gotten watered down over the last decade. They have 43 square miles with 4 theme parks, 2 water parks, and 20 some resort hotels - all able to offer a diverse offering of attractions, resorts, dining, and other experiences. Somewhere it seems they lost sight of that. It needs to be looked at from multiple points of view: the individual attraction, the area of the park, the theme park as a whole, and the overall resort experience. WDW is a sum of its many parts. But the individual parts seem to get more attention than the overall sum, which is why it if frustrating to me to see the abandonment of the thematic experience that once was Future World.

Here are some questions that I really don't know the answer to:
Were the original Journey Into Imagination operating expenses so high that EPCOT/WDW/Disney Co was in jeopardy of losing money? Was adding Nemo and totally changing the theme and feel of the pavilion the only way to increase ridership on The Living Seas, and to what percent was low ridership hurting the bottom line? Are new films for the Universe of Energy, which would bring it into the 21st century, too expensive for an entertainment company to produce without an external corporate sponsor? Was there such a lack of space at EPCOT that Mission:SPACE couldn't have been constructed elsewhere without demolishing Horizons, and would the expenses of operating both made WDW not profitable?

Any way you look at it, this is an interesting thing to discuss.

 

[tissandtully]

It's exactly why they do it...they aren't dumb.

But I don't envy you for having to sell them, lol

It was a good experience for handling money without a cash register, I literally had thousands of dollars on me, overflowing.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

It was a good experience for handling money without a cash register, I literally had thousands of dollars on me, overflowing.

I still think I'd rather have the experience of that minus the heat and the carrying around about 20+ pounds of drinks

 

[flynnibus]

Only way to prove it is to do an experiment. You aren't necessarily wrong...but you're not necessarily right either. All I know is that the crazy people can stand in the long lines while I happily use my Fastpass.

Again... Failure of logic. Who was the one claiming a factual cause and effect? The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. I'm simply showing how the supporting 'experiment' is flawed and hence the conclusions drawn from it are also flawed.

Just because when you walk out the door of your house... You see the sun... That doesn't mean you walking out of your house causes the sun to rise.

These are just both examples where people make factual observations but make incorrect conclusions because their methods are incomplete.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

Again... Failure of logic. Who was the one claiming a factual cause and effect? The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. I'm simply showing how the supporting 'experiment' is flawed and hence the conclusions drawn from it are also flawed.

Just because when you walk out the door of your house... You see the sun... That doesn't mean you walking out of your house causes the sun to rise.

These are just both examples where people make factual observations but make incorrect conclusions because their methods are incomplete.

You're putting words in my mouth. And you're talking down to me. I'm moving on

 

[JenniferS]

Rather than demean the intelligence of others, can you provide a logical example of how Fastpass does not cause longer lines at attractions? I'd really like to hear it.

Welcome new member.
Are you really sure you want to take on Flynn?

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

And second, the claims of 3-6x increases in wait times as a rule of thumb for fp as 'fact' is in fact... Crap

In what way is that "in fact crap"? I've personally ridden numerous popular rides long before fastpass was invented (ones that remain incredibly popular even today today such as Big Thunder and Splash Mountain) and can say with confidence that fastpass has made their lines both far longer in length as well as much slower to move along than they used to be. Easily a good 3-6x than they were when they didn't used to have fastpass. This measured within the same parameters before and after with only fastpass being the differing element (same park, same time of year, similar overall park crowd sizes etc).

Obviously you're free to claim your own personal experiences, but those are mine. I've witnessed still popular rides have their wait times increase several fold due to the fastpass system. I've seen lines that were once 10 minutes without fastpass realistically become 30-60 minutes with it. Again around the same time of year with pretty similar crowd sizes. From my own extensive experience, it has a major effect. That is what i'm basing this on.

 

[JenniferS]

In what way is that "in fact crap"? I've personally ridden numerous popular rides long before fastpass was invented (ones that remain incredibly popular even today today such as Big Thunder and Splash Mountain) and can say with confidence that fastpass has made their lines both far longer in length as well as much slower to move along than they used to be. Easily a good 3-6x than they were when they didn't used to have fastpass. This measured within the same parameters before and after with only fastpass being the differing element (same park, same time of year, similar overall park crowd sizes etc).

Surely park attendance has increased over the years, while the number of attractions has not. Might this also factor into longer wait times as well? Not everything can be blamed on FastPass.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

Surely park attendance has increased over the years, while the number of attractions has not. Might this also factor into longer wait times as well? Not everything can be blamed on FastPass.

Sure that can have an effect and there probably have been attendance increases over the years. But as I said above, my comparison was from visually similar crowd levels at similar times of the year. Fastpass makes the lines longer AND slower when in effect. There have been days i've visited in more recent years that seemed considerably less crowded than my pre-fastpass visits too, but lines still piled up and moved much more slowly than before due to fastpass (can't fathom what other reason could be involved).

I'll also mention that Splash Mountain's wait times back then were when the ride was brand new, the line still generally moved along at a very fast pace and didn't pile up too long unless it was either an incredibly busy season or if the ride stopped for extended periods for whatever reason. With fastpass the line now unquestionably stops far more often and longer to let the fastpass people in, allowing it to grow exponentially in size.

Really, I didn't know this was still even up for debate. I was under the impression that pretty much everyone here knew and accepted that fastpass heavily increases and slows lines, even those that like the fastpass system... There are a number of things that can affect how long a line is of course, but in my experience fastpass has the largest effect by far.

 

[JenniferS]

Sure that can have an effect and there probably have been attendance increases over the years. But as I said above, my comparison was from visually similar crowd levels at similar times of the year. Fastpass makes the lines longer AND slower when in effect.

I'll also mention that Splash Mountain's wait times back then were when the ride was brand new, the line still generally moved along at a very fast pace and didn't pile up too long unless it was either an incredibly busy season or if the ride stopped for extended periods for whatever reason. With fastpass the line now unquestionably stops far more often and longer to let the fastpass people in, allowing it to grow exponentially in size.

Really, I didn't know this was still even up for debate. I was under the impression that pretty much everyone here knew and accepted that fastpass heavily increases and slows lines, even those that like the fastpass system...

Yeah, I might just be arguing for the sake of arguing. I get like that.
That being said, I don't believe FP is to blame for everything. Attendance is up (as was discussed ad nauseum when the TEA numbers came out), but Disney continues to shutter or "operate seasonally" various rides and attractions.
More people + less to do = bigger crowds milling about and longer line ups.
Not that it's an option, but would it be better if FP were dumped altogether?
I really think I'm going to hate this FP Plus. Yesterday I booked a last minute (for me anyway) trip for 10 days at the end of September, so hopefully I can enjoy one more vacation before the crap really hits the fan.

 

[The Excavator]

Really, I didn't know this was still even up for debate. I was under the impression that pretty much everyone here knew and accepted that fastpass heavily increases and slows lines, even those that like the fastpass system...

I concur. Ultimately, increased attendance and attraction placements could (and probably do) play vital roles in the length of lines for Soarin', TSMM, etc. However, aside from these two attractions, other attractions in less demand areas are suffering from the same fate, where lines move slower than they used to.

The stagnation that FastPass creates in the Stand-By lines is across the board. When FP's are handed out at an 60/40 ratio. Note: This ratio is from years of experience waiting in the stand-by lines. It could be, and probably is, a greater ratio than my estimate. However I don't want people badgering it, even though I think it's more like 80/20.

Since FP guests are being accepted at a greater rate than that of Stand By Line guests this will, logically, increase the Stand By Wait-time. And just the shear acceptance of a FP guest will, logically, break the flow of the Stand By Line, therefore slowing the line and creating more dead stops rather than fluid movement.

I'm not sure how any kind of analytic can disqualify the fact that FP has increased wait times, by how much and at what attractions it increased it the greatest or least at is another question entirely. One in which an accurate answer really can't be determined without proper data and analyzing, which frankly, I don't think we need to do.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

For the record, I don't hate fastpass. I'm not really a fan of it either, but i'm not totally against it as i've had uses for it. I'm not usually against standing in line myself (though I'll agree that I can't think of rides worth waiting several hours for), but I'm usually at Disney with my (now getting older and less able to get around easily) mom who has bad arthritis. I don't like to make her wait long when i'm riding something she can't ride (or doesn't want to). For other things we go on together, she gets a handicap pass because she can't stand for incredibly long periods of time without serious hip and foot pain due to the arthritis. For the majority of rides, we just ride together and so the existence or lack of fastpass wouldn't affect us either way.

But all in all, there has never been a question in my mind that fastpass inflates and slows lines heavily.

Fastpass+ looks like a complete pain. Again won't affect me much probably (at least not in the near future), but I can't see people taking a major liking to it like they did to normal fastpass. I'm with WDW1974 and many others here about the negativity.