Two Spirited Quickees...Imagination closing

[RSoxNo1]

I can certainly remember times the land was packed pre Soarin'

Mickey Macaroni?

 

[RSoxNo1]

You're quite mistaken. As someone who visited EPCOT all the time back in the early-mid 90's up until '97, I can tell you that none of these rides suffered from a lack of interest whatsoever. Even the Land had (and still does have) a number of people who ride. They had short lines not because they bored anyone or didn't attract guests, but because their ride systems were ridiculously efficient and high capacity. Omnimovers are well known to be insane people eaters. At that time, EPCOT had 4 incredibly popular and impressive E Tickets (SSE, Horizons, Imagination and WOM), but their incredible efficiency and capacity kept the guests going through without causing lines to back up. Not to mention there was no Fastpass at that point in time to artificially engorge the lines (something that has been proven to increase wait times and lines several fold). But in actuality, there were almost always people riding them and there weren't really usually a lot of empty seats even in less busy seasons. The rides were just so efficient that there was little chance for a long line to form.

Soarin attracts long lines for a huge amount of reasons not even all related to popularity, including all of the following-
1- It has nowhere close to the level of capacity and efficiency as any of the classic EPCOT rides
2- Fastpass makes the situation worse by artificially inflating lines by many times what it would have been
3- Future World lost 3 incredibly efficient rides long ago, their replacements either being hated and avoided by most people (Imagination 3.0) or also being inefficient (Mission Space and Test Track)

That's not to say Soarin isn't popular in addition to those factors. But it's 100% guaranteed that it wouldn't have anywhere close to the huge lines it gets now if the three elements above weren't an issue. EPCOT in its original form was very well balanced due to there being quality E tickets everywhere that were almost universally adored, but they were also very high capacity and efficient. The double punch of quality at every turn and efficiency kept the crowds even and balanced.

Imagination 1.0 had a problem of its own that negatively affected attendance. It wasn't that they couldn't get people to ride, it's because they deliberately TRIED to get people not to ride. I believe it was stated by insiders on this site that at one point later in its life, management began to sabotage the ride's popularity to give them an excuse to close it down and redo it anew (they apparently didn't like its maintenance and operating costs). Apparently advertisement for the ride was reduced and cast members were told to direct people away from the ride and towards the 3D movie instead, downplaying there even being a ride there. They didn't want people to ride it. Maybe @Lee or @WDW1974 or @marni1971 could clarify the matter (it may have been one of them that originally revealed this).

But it sounded like it didn't deter people too much. My last visit to EPCOT before Imagination was gutted was in 1997. It wasn't at an incredibly busy time of the year, but there was still a constant stream of people riding all the remaining EPCOT classics at that point in time. Imagination was included in this. And in busy season even in their later years, these rides could definitely get some lines.

Hopefully this is why Imagination is going down for a refurbishment. Adding in a another in demand attraction will hopefully absorb some of the crowds when Soarin' the World opens.

 

[Admiral01]

Hopefully this is why Imagination is going down for a refurbishment. Adding in a another in demand attraction will hopefully absorb some of the crowds when Soarin' the World opens.

Agreed. EPCOT lost some of its balance when the crowd eating Omnimovers WoM (15 minutes) and Horizons (14.5 minutes) were replaced with Mission: Space (5.5 minutes) and Test Track (4 minutes). Couple that with Imagination being both sorter than the original and lousy, and Soarin' being a really great attraction that has high demand but terrible flow. EPCOT needs more good quality crowd eaters. That Omnimover system was such a great thing for EPCOT when it opened, and we have now lost around 30 minutes of Omnimover ride which has been replaced with less than 10 minutes of load-and-go ride (whatever we call that...). Imagination could really help solve this, especially with its proximity to The Land pavilion.

I know we are all hoping...

 

[aladdin2007]

Agreed. EPCOT lost some of its balance when the crowd eating Omnimovers WoM (15 minutes) and Horizons (14.5 minutes) were replaced with Mission: Space (5.5 minutes) and Test Track (4 minutes). Couple that with Imagination being both sorter than the original and lousy, and Soarin' being a really great attraction that has high demand but terrible flow. EPCOT needs more good quality crowd eaters. That Omnimover system was such a great thing for EPCOT when it opened, and we have now lost around 30 minutes of Omnimover ride which has been replaced with less than 10 minutes of load-and-go ride (whatever we call that...). Imagination could really help solve this, especially with its proximity to The Land pavilion.

I know we are all hoping...

Hoping soooooo hard, this is their chance to get it right, question is will they? And hopefully Tony is indeed involved.

 

[Captain Neo]

And to add into the mix, Cronkites SSE was the best IMHO

94 was good, very good, but static mannequins and broken laser effects knocked it down a peg or two. Plus they removed my satellites and space station...

I agree plus I don't get why they got rid of Tomorrow's Child that would be like getting rid of "A pirates life" from POTC or "grim grinning ghosts" from HM.

 

[flynnibus]

They had short lines not because they bored anyone or didn't attract guests, but because their ride systems were ridiculously efficient and high capacity. Omnimovers are well known to be insane people eaters. At that time, EPCOT had 4 incredibly popular and impressive E Tickets (SSE, Horizons, Imagination and WOM), but their incredible efficiency and capacity kept the guests going through without causing lines to back up. Not to mention there was no Fastpass at that point in time to artificially engorge the lines (something that has been proven to increase wait times and lines several fold)

These attractions did suffer from a lack of interest. Like TL.. they suffered from being born in an era of rapid growth in consumer immersion in technology - at both home and work. It doesn't matter how efficientan attraction is.. when you ride with lots of empty seats/vehicles that is a lack of guests. People like Hoot Gibson were able to get on Horizons with no one in front or behind them for large swaths of time. That's not efficiency - that is lack of people period.

EPCOT alienated alot of people.. many didn't like the edu-tainment aspect, it didn't offer any of the outlets for thrill seekers, much of it was over the heads of the younger part of the family. EPCOT was adult.. and put all it's eggs in that basket. The lack of diversity hurt it. Then add in that the rides were hit or miss when it came to repeatability in the same day.. people wouldn't hop off UoE and get right back in line Then they aged and lacked any real updates (sans SSE). The rapid evolution in consumer sediment, style, technology awareness made EPCOT's FW age in less than a decade. Instead of timeless things.. in less than 10 years they not only were out of date, they REEKED of out of date (much like CoP's finale). Not so much that the concepts presented of the future were already achieved - but the optimism and targets described were a bit passe.

The high capacity aspect of the attractions further exaggerated the feeling of emptiness. But operational changes did hurt the attractions.. like the removal of the hydrolaters at the exit of the seas.. and the manipulation of the entrance of Imagation and how people fed between the attraction and the theater.

But I can't agree with anyone who would say the Seas was healthy and interesting before Nemo... heck I found the interior flat out DEPRESSING and devoid of life. Cutbacks on things like the divers and exhibits made the place just a depressing shell. UoE aged.. Horizons aged.. WoL was cheese from the get go.. and while WoM is adored by fans due to the insane amount of AAs and scale of it all.. but I don't think the masses felt quite the same.

By the 90s.. FW needed a reboot - but alas the promise of the value of sponsorship hadn't played out and dollars weren't flowing as easily as before.. and the choices the company made are history now and included shuttering and replacing whole pavilions rather than reinvigorate them. I think SSE is a good example of how the core concept could have been refreshed and still worked. I think Horizons would have held up if helped as well as Imagination.

But the lack of diversity in FW's attractions would still have haunted EPCOT if attractions like Test Track and Soarin' didn't happen. Mission:space is its own disappointment - I think it's just sorely misunderstood and too intense for the core Disney demographic. But the end-result is FW got it's diversity.. but the devil was in the details and FW lost it's identity. Communicore is the poster child of the difficulty of keeping the FW concept fresh and current in a cost effective way.

1- It has nowhere close to the level of capacity and efficiency as any of the classic EPCOT rides
2- Fastpass makes the situation worse by artificially inflating lines by many times what it would have been
3- Future World lost 3 incredibly efficient rides long ago, their replacements either being hated and avoided by most people (Imagination 3.0) or also being inefficient (Mission Space and Test Track)

I will disagree with your comments about FP increasing lines 'several fold' and that as fact.. but beyond that.. Soarin suffers from two main points. It, like TSMM, lacks popular attractions around it that are as family accessible as it is. Soarin' hits home with people from 8 to 80... that makes it a #1 draw for those looking to do things together. Add to that the problem of long waits between cycles = a line that will backup.

Soarin' is basically so accessible and so popular.. without competition around it to help soak up the demand. To me, that would be the #1 argument on why Imagination needs to be redone... to help take some of that family demand to lighten the demand on Soarin'.

What I'm amazed at is that Seas survived the dark period. That thing has got to be so manpower and utlity intensive.. and yet it managed to avoid the chopping block from the mid nineties to the 2008 era.

 

[englanddg]

What I'm amazed at is that Seas survived the dark period. That thing has got to be so manpower and utlity intensive.. and yet it managed to avoid the chopping block from the mid nineties to the 2008 era.

That's a good observation. I wonder, and this is purely a guess, if the reason it survived is related to the animals themselves.

It's the second largest saltwater aquarium in the world. You don't just shut that down overnight. Animals have to be relocated, some very carefully (endangered, etc), and for that you need an aquarium ready to handle the capacity, and there just aren't that many.

They MAY have been able to work something out with Atlanta and Monterey Bay and a few others, but it would take a while, and be very costly I would imagine, to find homes for all the fish / wildlife there. I wonder if it was so much of a hassle to close it, that it was just simpler to keep it open and attempt to try and drum up some interest...hence haphazardly shoving Nemo into the act.

 

[MOXOMUMD]

Sorry, but here in the south "ma'am" is the highest form of respect and flattery. Miss? Not so much! I'm sure that this is in some book that is under the watchful eye of Arab and Jewish scholars. Books that contain the very alphabet that we can thank the Phoenicians for.

Agreed. Don't call me Miss. (Dad's from Texas, mom's from Virginia, I was born in Ohio. ) That southernness is in my DNA, letters of the Phoenician alphabet.

 

[flynnibus]

That's a good observation. I wonder, and this is purely a guess, if the reason it survived is related to the animals themselves.

It's the second largest saltwater aquarium in the world. You don't just shut that down overnight. Animals have to be relocated, some very carefully (endangered, etc), and for that you need an aquarium ready to handle the capacity, and there just aren't that many.

They MAY have been able to work something out with Atlanta and Monterey Bay and a few others, but it would take a while, and be very costly I would imagine, to find homes for all the fish / wildlife there. I wonder if it was so much of a hassle to close it, that it was just simpler to keep it open and attempt to try and drum up some interest...hence haphazardly shoving Nemo into the act.

Yeah, but decommissioning expenses can be a tax benefit... unlike just ongoing op-ex. The challenge of 'how' may just have made spending money already in the budget the 'path of least resistance'. If you're a pencil nerd making a pitch on how to save the company tons... making this pitch would include a story on how to actually achieve it. Probably too daunting.. so the nerd looks elsewhere to scavenge.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

From all the times I visited EPCOT from about 91-97, I rarely ever rode any of the major 4 Future World rides without there being a constant stream of people riding. There were never very many empty seats. I'm speaking from personal experience (a pretty solid amount of it, I visited all the time during those years). And in busier parts of the year, i've waited in line for all of them. That's the case for SSE, Imagination, Horizons and WoM anyways. But I even recall there always being a lot of people in Wonders of Life and the Land.

Pretty much everything they did to Epcot post 1994 was far more dated than the rides that were there previously. Which is hilariously ironic.

I'm not saying the entirety of Future World couldn't have used an overhaul and more rides like Soarin. It certainly needed it. But replacing everything good about it with a bunch of cheap thrills was a horrible idea, and there's no question in my mind now that it damaged the park's image virtually beyond repair (it's a complete mess now and I doubt anyone even cares to fix it at this point, though hopefully Imagination 4.0 does at least something). If cheap thrills were needed, they should have at least been additions and not replacements (not to mention they should have been better themed and well designed from a show perspective). It needed plussing of existing rides (like SSE 94) and additional new ones. I already said Test Track could have gone around WoM's perimeter, not replacing it.

And yes Fastpass does artificially inflate line lengths by a huge amount. There's no question about that. It lengthens and slows the lines down by a massive amount.

Think much of the '94 love is because a lot of whippersnappers rode it first?

I rode the Cronkite version first (numerous times, likely as much as if not more than the 94 version). The reason 94 version is better to me is the new narration, new scenes in the descent (coupled with the lighting and fiber optic effects) and superior musical score. Though I've nothing against Tomorrow's Child, I like it and would love to hear it replace the current version's music. I'd be entirely satisfied with that song. I've always preferred the Horizons theme by far (and Imagination). I'd love to hear them incorporate Listen to the Land back into the Land ride too (riding through the greenhouse would be a good place for it).

 

[Prototype82]

Newer attractions year round > lights.

The lights are perhaps the greatest Christmas festivity there. As great and inspiring as holiday storytellers are, I want to see thousands of lights at the holidays. They're incredible.

 

[flynnibus]

From all the times I visited EPCOT from about 91-97, I rarely ever rode any of the major 4 Future World rides without there being a constant stream of people riding. There were never very many empty seats. I'm speaking from personal experience (a pretty solid amount of it, I visited all the time during those years). And in busier parts of the year, i've waited in line for all of them. That's the case for SSE, Imagination, Horizons and WoM anyways. But I even recall there always being a lot of people in Wonders of Life and the Land.

Yes.. so many in WoL that after just 15 years.. it went seasonal. WoL.. the newest pavilion.. first to close. Must have been raking in the guests!

While Soarin' has been crowding the land pavilion.. how many actually take in the second level? The restaurant used to be on of the more popular dining locations.. now it too has been robbed of it's desire. The Land unfortunately has become a shell for Soarin'... Living with the Land is so dynamic.. we replaced the guests with a sound track that can't be modified on the fly like a tour guide could be..

And yes Fastpass does artificially inflate line lengths by a huge amount. There's no question about that...

A far cry from 'several fold' claimed as fact.

 

[SirLink]

But I can't agree with anyone who would say the Seas was healthy and interesting before Nemo... heck I found the interior flat out DEPRESSING and devoid of life. Cutbacks on things like the divers and exhibits made the place just a depressing shell. UoE aged.. Horizons aged.. WoL was cheese from the get go.. and while WoM is adored by fans due to the insane amount of AAs and scale of it all.. but I don't think the masses felt quite the same.

By the 90s.. FW needed a reboot - but alas the promise of the value of sponsorship hadn't played out and dollars weren't flowing as easily as before.. and the choices the company made are history now and included shuttering and replacing whole pavilions rather than reinvigorate them. I think SSE is a good example of how the core concept could have been refreshed and still worked. I think Horizons would have held up if helped as well as Imagination.

What I'm amazed at is that Seas survived the dark period. That thing has got to be so manpower and utlity intensive.. and yet it managed to avoid the chopping block from the mid nineties to the 2008 era.

1)SEAS may not of been interesting after they cut stuff back
2)Nemo was the dumbing down of SEAs. The thing is though it lost the message it was "trying to preach".
3)You might as well design a more organic SEAs and move it to DAK.
4)Its the reason why guests should expect an edutainment park in Epcot ... not some cartoon menagerie to cater to the Honey Boo Boos of the world.

 

[ScoutN]

The lights are perhaps the greatest Christmas festivity there. As great and inspiring as holiday storytellers are, I want to see thousands of lights at the holidays. They're incredible.

Good thing I can see lights like that at a few places locally.

 

[englanddg]

Yeah, but decommissioning expenses can be a tax benefit... unlike just ongoing op-ex. The challenge of 'how' may just have made spending money already in the budget the 'path of least resistance'. If you're a pencil nerd making a pitch on how to save the company tons... making this pitch would include a story on how to actually achieve it. Probably too daunting.. so the nerd looks elsewhere to scavenge.

Speaking of tax benefits (or other benefits)...Something I'm not sure of with that pavilion is if there are any federal grants / tax benefits that it is eligible for. I know the aquarium here in Atlanta, while pulling around 5 million visitors a year, does get federal grants / aid for it's work with endangered species research, etc.

I know at one point they were doing some work like this in the Seas, I don't know about now though.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

Yes.. so many in WoL that after just 15 years.. it went seasonal. WoL.. the newest pavilion.. first to close. Must have been raking in the guests!

While Soarin' has been crowding the land pavilion.. how many actually take in the second level? The restaurant used to be on of the more popular dining locations.. now it too has been robbed of it's desire. The Land unfortunately has become a shell for Soarin'... Living with the Land is so dynamic.. we replaced the guests with a sound track that can't be modified on the fly like a tour guide could be..

I still see a constant stream of people riding Living With the Land, even in this day and age. Again, doesn't get massive lines because it's so efficient. But i've seldom if ever ridden it with a whole lot of seats being empty. The same is true of Pirate and Small World (both incredibly popular and well loved rides), I rarely ever wait in line for them but there's unquestionably always a steady stream of people riding both. Their efficiency and capacity eat up people like mad regardless of their popularity.

I didn't even mention Wonders of Life. I was talking about Horizons, SSE, Imagination and WoM. Try again.

A far cry from 'several fold' claimed as fact.

LOL no, not at all. Fastpass in my experience (and others on this board who are more in a position to know than I) can and usually does multiply line lengths by several times what it would have been otherwise. I believe they've tested Haunted Mansion off and on, and fastpass always massively increases the wait time whenever they do (not sure whether it has become a full time thing yet, I haven't been to WDW for over a year now). Fastpass has the potential to easily take a ride that would normally have a 10-15 minute wait and multiply that amount by anywhere from 3-6 times. That is not an exaggeration either.

 

[willtravel]

Yes.. so many in WoL that after just 15 years.. it went seasonal. WoL.. the newest pavilion.. first to close. Must have been raking in the guests!

While Soarin' has been crowding the land pavilion.. how many actually take in the second level? The restaurant used to be on of the more popular dining locations.. now it too has been robbed of it's desire. The Land unfortunately has become a shell for Soarin'... Living with the Land is so dynamic.. we replaced the guests with a sound track that can't be modified on the fly like a tour guide could be.. A far cry from 'several fold' claimed as fact.

I do. Every time I go I do the whole pavilion. I do all pavilions except MS. But I agree on the restaurant. I would love to eat there. I don't like the menu or character dining. I am sad there is no CM at the front of the boat. I would prefer that. But either I put up with it as is or don't go on. I think Soarin is good. But I don't think it makes that pavilion. At least for me. IMO

 

[Goofyernmost]

Speaking of tax benefits (or other benefits)...Something I'm not sure of with that pavilion is if there are any federal grants / tax benefits that it is eligible for. I know the aquarium here in Atlanta, while pulling around 5 million visitors a year, does get federal grants / aid for it's work with endangered species research, etc.

I know at one point they were doing some work like this in the Seas, I don't know about now though.

I agree Weird Al Englanddg. I remember something along those lines. I don't remember exactly what they were doing studies on, but, off the top of my head I think it might have been Manatee's. That study must be over by now though. Now there attempting to find a homing device that will attach to Nemo so that we aren't always having to find him.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Yes.. so many in WoL that after just 15 years.. it went seasonal. WoL.. the newest pavilion.. first to close. Must have been raking in the guests!

Part of the problem with that was Disney did a lousy job of letting people know just what WoL had to offer. When you walked in you saw those little carnival type sideshows and the bikes, etc., but everything else was not very well promoted, IMHO! I started going to EPCOT in 1983 and even though I didn't make yearly trips there during that time I never even knew about Cranium Command until a couple of years before it closed. You would have thought that just by accident I would have noticed it...but I didn't. If I recall, I happened to notice Body Wars after I had been there a couple of times. Remember no internet, discussion boards etc. during that time.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

These attractions did suffer from a lack of interest. Like TL.. they suffered from being born in an era of rapid growth in consumer immersion in technology - at both home and work. It doesn't matter how efficientan attraction is.. when you ride with lots of empty seats/vehicles that is a lack of guests. People like Hoot Gibson were able to get on Horizons with no one in front or behind them for large swaths of time. That's not efficiency - that is lack of people period.

EPCOT alienated alot of people.. many didn't like the edu-tainment aspect, it didn't offer any of the outlets for thrill seekers, much of it was over the heads of the younger part of the family. EPCOT was adult.. and put all it's eggs in that basket. The lack of diversity hurt it. Then add in that the rides were hit or miss when it came to repeatability in the same day.. people wouldn't hop off UoE and get right back in line Then they aged and lacked any real updates (sans SSE). The rapid evolution in consumer sediment, style, technology awareness made EPCOT's FW age in less than a decade. Instead of timeless things.. in less than 10 years they not only were out of date, they REEKED of out of date (much like CoP's finale). Not so much that the concepts presented of the future were already achieved - but the optimism and targets described were a bit passe.

But I can't agree with anyone who would say the Seas was healthy and interesting before Nemo... heck I found the interior flat out DEPRESSING and devoid of life. Cutbacks on things like the divers and exhibits made the place just a depressing shell. UoE aged.. Horizons aged.. WoL was cheese from the get go.. and while WoM is adored by fans due to the insane amount of AAs and scale of it all.. but I don't think the masses felt quite the same.

By the 90s.. FW needed a reboot - but alas the promise of the value of sponsorship hadn't played out and dollars weren't flowing as easily as before.. and the choices the company made are history now and included shuttering and replacing whole pavilions rather than reinvigorate them. I think SSE is a good example of how the core concept could have been refreshed and still worked. I think Horizons would have held up if helped as well as Imagination.

But the lack of diversity in FW's attractions would still have haunted EPCOT if attractions like Test Track and Soarin' didn't happen. Mission:space is its own disappointment - I think it's just sorely misunderstood and too intense for the core Disney demographic. But the end-result is FW got it's diversity.. but the devil was in the details and FW lost it's identity. Communicore is the poster child of the difficulty of keeping the FW concept fresh and current in a cost effective way.

A lot of this is true. As beloved as EPCOT Center was by many here, it had a number of issues that were slowly killing it by the mid-90s. Much of it was a complacency by Disney that let the park become stale, but some of it has to do with changes in society that wanted more thrill and less education. Still, there were just a number of bad ideas. Imagination 2.0 and 3.0 top the list, as does M:S and the closing (instead of updating) of WoL. And I still believe that some of Innoventions problem is that you can't see it from outside. Uncover the darn windows and let people see there is something back there!

I think the main issue people have (myself included) with the changes brought to Epcot is the loss of vision and theme. Attractions like Nemo and M:S are entertaining to a degree, but lack any kind of substance. Even SSE '07 falls into this problem with a descent that favors gimmickry over meaning. Now, its not a bad thing to have those kind of attractions to help balance out the "edutainment" ones, but to replace entire pavilions with them is where problems start. When futurism and optimism and human ingenuity are the ideas that anchor the theme of Future World, the attractions in FW need to reflect them. Otherwise you are left with an area devoid of any cohesion that is painfully obvious to even the first time visitor.

Look at it this way: if Pirates of the Caribbean had been built in Animal Kingdom, we would all wonder why because it would be so obviously out of place. Or move Expedition Everest onto Hollywood Blvd at DHS - it just wouldn't work. So why does Disney persist in doing this for Future World? No doubt they have royally screwed up what had been solid attractions, but at the same time, they have built new ones that have no reason to be in Epcot.