Two coasts: One very different world

[RSoxNo1]

You're running your brand like TDO runs the parks Sugar now.. crash later. Later is later's problem.

Our brand has never been the website, it's been the podcast. I'm not running that through facebook. Now if you're saying the quality of the show as slipped (which I don't think you are) then the comparison would be correct.

 

[wdwmagic]

Let's keep this thread on subject guys. Thanks.

 

[Pentacat]

#1 I want back the hour of my life I wasted reading the majority of this thread. Seriously, take a step back from the keyboard and breathe once in a while.

That said here's a few thoughts in a kind of brain dump (rant?) response sytle.

Can you imagine if the Internet as we know it today had existed during the "bad years" of DL? I can hear the howls of discontent from the DL faithful as Orlando was lavished with not only new attractions but entire new theme parks while DL was left to slowly rot from the late 80's to the mid '90s (note this drips with sarcasm, hyperbole and truth.) #whereiswestcot?

I do think that it is important to note that at the core of WDW1974's argument is that things at WDW are substantially worse now than they were in the mid 90's. I agree with this entirely, to those of who that never got to see the WDW parks and resorts during that time I'm truly sorry because those times were really special. I remember my first stay at the Polynesian in '87 and I have never had a resort experience exceed that trip. I remember a time when the Coral Sea restaurant was a high quality dining experience with service that was simply amazing and not just a Red Lobster with a dirty glass wall. I remember when MGM was a small park that couldn't handle a reasonable crowd....oh wait, that's still true.

You can make the blanket statement that a couple of broken effects or burnt out light bulbs here and there only bother the completely obsessed but at some point those problems reach critical mass. The maintenance concerns are one problem but the Service and Dining problems are far worse in my opinion. I have been constantly let down by the general level of service over the last 10 years culminating in an stay at CSR last year that nearly ended my love affair with WDW. The over all quality of cast members is down so far from where it was I just don't see how it can ever be fixed.

Is it possible that TWDC has some kind of cultural or resource problem that prevents them from being able to equally divide their attention between the two sites? It can't be a coincidence that WDW reached it's peak (again, opinion) at the same time the DL was in a serious rut in the early 90's. And I think most would agree the reverse is now true (even though I don't think WDW is in nearly as bad of shape that DL was allowed to get to.) With the reductions over the last few years in the size of Imagineering and the reliance on outside contractors I have little hope that things will change for the better in this respect.

I have expressed my frustrations with DVC (particularly at WDW) in previous threads. From a business stand point DVC is a marvel, providing steady and substantial profits to the bottom line. From a quality standpoint I believe that DVC has only contributed to the decline in quality at WDW. You DVC members are a captive audience that have voted with your wallets, effectively telling Disney that I'm so pleased with your product that I will continue to buy it for X number of years no matter what. The mentality at TWDC is that the WDW Parks exist to sell DVC memberships and not that without the Parks, DVC would be just another fractional ownership scam. Is DVC (or Golden Oak) what Walt had in mind with his "blessing of size" statement? I doubt it.

I'm glad that the money dumped into CA has been apparently well spent, Cars Land looks amazing and it gives me hope that WDI can still wow people. But I also get the distinct feeling that the whole FLE project is very "b team" compared to Cars Land.

 

[jrlbc06]

]

For a while, the mindset was that WDW guests only come back every 3.75 years so they only need to add a major addition ever 3.75 years. I look at this as a chicken vs. the egg scenario. Add in the fact that they’re being a lot looser in what they classify as a major addition now (lately it’s been replacements or enhancements in the case of TSMM and ST2.0) and it’s fairly easy to see why they’re losing market share.

Yep. We live in Massachusetts and just booked a trip to California for July because they are adding quality attractions. I haven't been to Florida in 2 1/2 years (and this will be my third trip to Ca in that time) because CA is where the new quality attractions are being added. I have been to WDW over 40 times in my life, but now WDW has lost me to DL, at least until they can convince me that they have had a change of philosophy akin to what happened in CA in the last decade.

 

[twebber55]

"have expressed my frustrations with DVC (particularly at WDW) in previous threads. From a business stand point DVC is a marvel, providing steady and substantial profits to the bottom line. From a quality standpoint I believe that DVC has only contributed to the decline in quality at WDW. You DVC members are a captive audience that have voted with your wallets, effectively telling Disney that I'm so pleased with your product that I will continue to buy it for X number of years no matter what. The mentality at TWDC is that the WDW Parks exist to sell DVC memberships and not that without the Parks, DVC would be just another fractional ownership scam. Is DVC (or Golden Oak) what Walt had in mind with his "blessing of size" statement? I doubt it."

my response
as a dvc owner i will say this....the last two years while in orlando we spent all of our theme park time at universal

 

[Pentacat]

"have expressed my frustrations with DVC (particularly at WDW) in previous threads. From a business stand point DVC is a marvel, providing steady and substantial profits to the bottom line. From a quality standpoint I believe that DVC has only contributed to the decline in quality at WDW. You DVC members are a captive audience that have voted with your wallets, effectively telling Disney that I'm so pleased with your product that I will continue to buy it for X number of years no matter what. The mentality at TWDC is that the WDW Parks exist to sell DVC memberships and not that without the Parks, DVC would be just another fractional ownership scam. Is DVC (or Golden Oak) what Walt had in mind with his "blessing of size" statement? I doubt it."

my response
as a dvc owner i will say this....the last two years while in orlando we spent all of our theme park time at universal

Make sure you tell someone at DVC or TDO that.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Sorry, at this point I am really not interested in the "wetness" of guests in the park or the trolling or who is nice and who is mean...it seems like there is some information here that is trying to work its way to the surface. Are you implying that a major media outlet is going to start putting some pressure on Disney to fix the yeti? Either everyone else here knows what is implied and I am completely in the dark or this is getting lost in the crazy.

No, no. I was the one who contacted Garcia and pitched the idea for the article on the Disco Yeti. I asked him if he was aware of it, which he was... He said he just didn't know if it was that important. We went back and forth a bit, and he realized it really WAS a big deal... And could be looked at as an indicator of the bigger picture. I made some points that he thought would lend itself to a good story. I gave him some quotes for the story, and pointed him to a couple of the respected folks on this board for quotes as well.

From what I understand, there where quite a few within TDO that weren't happy with the article, and it got a good response to Jason from people. So to me, I think it did its job. I knew it wasn't something that was going to get the yeti instantly fixed, but it was the first time anyone tried to get Disney "on the record" on the yeti, and the first mainstream story that was written about it. That was important to me.

The wink and smile was basically just me "outing" myself on the article, I guess.

 

[DznyRktekt]

When fully supported by a healthy budget, Disney has been able to create mountains and lakes from flat swampland, innovative transportation systems, a government entity, a water bridge, and entire theaters that become vehicles. If this type of innovation is not feasible in Orlando for future projects, I only hope that TDO will reflect on the state of the grand attractions and infrastructure that is present and begin to once again maintain them before it becomes too late.

 

[flynnibus]

Can you imagine if the Internet as we know it today had existed during the "bad years" of DL? I can hear the howls of discontent from the DL faithful as Orlando was lavished with not only new attractions but entire new theme parks while DL was left to slowly rot from the late 80's to the mid '90s (note this drips with sarcasm, hyperbole and truth.) #whereiswestcot?

Those discussions and energy were there - they just were on usenet, not discussion forums like today. Many of the 'anchor' sites out there today were active contributors back then as well.

Is it possible that TWDC has some kind of cultural or resource problem that prevents them from being able to equally divide their attention between the two sites? It can't be a coincidence that WDW reached it's peak (again, opinion) at the same time the DL was in a serious rut in the early 90's

Culture? Definately.. DL went to the gutter because of the leadership and their direction/motivations at the time. They gutted the way the park did business and replaced it with a new horrible model that many elements still persist to this day.

Resources? I don't think that is it.. maybe the lack of desire to expand them.. maybe.. but Disney's resource pool has always been a flexible beast.. expanded and contracted as demand dictates.

Why the culture differences and the isolation between them today between the coasts? Unknown.. my guess is the 'how' isn't as important to the leadership right now as long as the 'what' gets done. So as long as you hit your numbers... 'how' doesn't seem to be a metric of concern.

 

[evilzorac]

I have two kids (8 & 6) that love to get wet in splash zones and have looked at this spot and been sorely disappointed. I will not get into the issue of if they should have these areas in a park or not but just throw up the splash area (Fievel's play land I think) in Universal and how it blows Casey out of the water, not on themeing but on fun. There kids get to run around with huge buckets of water splashing on their heads, fire hoses to pump and shoot, and multiple levels to play on, even a small water coaster. Why couldn't WDW have created something like that instead of hanging a few spray hoses on some on some cheap plaster sculptures? I love Disney and have had annual passes forever but my tolerrance for their mindset makes it harder and harder to renew.

 

[Mouse Detective]

The dumbing down of WDW is greatly owing to the dumbed down demands of the guests entering the gates. WDW is being reshaped to their liking.

I think that kind of sums up nicely the entire point of this thread.

 

[montyz81]

You can make the blanket statement that a couple of broken effects or burnt out light bulbs here and there only bother the completely obsessed but at some point those problems reach critical mass. The maintenance concerns are one problem but the Service and Dining problems are far worse in my opinion. I have been constantly let down by the general level of service over the last 10 years culminating in an stay at CSR last year that nearly ended my love affair with WDW. The over all quality of cast members is down so far from where it was I just don't see how it can ever be fixed.

1..Is it possible that this is a generational issue too. There is far lest respect for quality and the notion of authority in the teen's generation today then there has ever been in my opinion. I truly believe that the low quality of service you are seeing is a result of lack of good control over the employees and employees willing to take pride in their work... a prime example of this is the monorail accident. If that person truly owned his position, he would not have gone to dinner assuming that the system would take over part of his responsibility. That would never have happened in the 80s or 70s. There is a lack of ownership over ones tasks in many of the younger generation. (I apologize if this offends anyone in the younger generation that does not fit this mold. My statement is more to say that there are greater numbers of kids that won't take responsibility compared to the number in the 70s and 80s.)
2..The other issue going on here is that there are 50k employees on one site at WDW, the more you cut costs and ultimately the middle management, quality will suffer. There just isn't enough people to watch over all the younger/newer employees.

I think both of those are very much contributing to the service issues you are seeing. They are also contributing to the lack of maintenance too. Not enough people to get to everything that needs to be fixed. If you look at the punch list and the number of employees they have to fix it and compare that to the same list from the 70's and 80's (taking into consideration the increased size of the parks and resorts) I could almost guarantee you that there are far less percentages of people to fix things now vs 30 yrs ago. It all comes down to cost, they cut the cost and now they can't keep up with things that need to be fixed.. this is even after simplifying just about every ride at Epcot (sorry had to through that last little frustration point/statement in about my favorite park)

I'm glad that the money dumped into CA has been apparently well spent, Cars Land looks amazing and it gives me hope that WDI can still wow people. But I also get the distinct feeling that the whole FLE project is very "b team" compared to Cars Land.

I get the same impression.

That was a great post Pentacat... I so have the same mindset that you do!

 

[ScarForKing]

No, no. I was the one who contacted Garcia and pitched the idea for the article on the Disco Yeti. I asked him if he was aware of it, which he was... He said he just didn't know if it was that important. We went back and forth a bit, and he realized it really WAS a big deal... And could be looked at as an indicator of the bigger picture. I made some points that he thought would lend itself to a good story. I gave him some quotes for the story, and pointed him to a couple of the respected folks on this board for quotes as well.

From what I understand, there where quite a few within TDO that weren't happy with the article, and it got a good response to Jason from people. So to me, I think it did its job. I knew it wasn't something that was going to get the yeti instantly fixed, but it was the first time anyone tried to get Disney "on the record" on the yeti, and the first mainstream story that was written about it. That was important to me.

The wink and smile was basically just me "outing" myself on the article, I guess.

Ah ok. It would be great to force them to say something about it...will probably never happen though. It just seems that it would be in their best interest to address it in one way or another...whether it's to say chill, we will be fixing it soon or get over it it's never going to be fixed. At least then all this speculation is gone and after an initial backlash from the fan community the story goes away and becomes yeti folklore. Heck, make up an excuse and lie to me I don't care, but don't just try to sweep a massive yeti under the rug and say, "what yeti? "

 

[vonpluto]

Those discussions and energy were there - they just were on usenet, not discussion forums like today. Many of the 'anchor' sites out there today were active contributors back then as well.

Sites like Lutz' DIG offshoot, "Disneyland Blues", archive here : http://www.mouseplanet.com/shame/

The verbal wars and flamefests on alt.disney.disneyland over Light Magic and other topics make threads like this seem like a visit with Alice for tea and crumpets.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

Hmm, let's see. Carsland was 1.2 billion over the last 3 years, 2 new Disney ships were about 800 million over the last few years. Profits are up. Seems like WDW should get 2 billion over the next few years to "start" fixing what is wrong.

 

[flynnibus]

The verbal wars and flamefests on alt.disney.disneyland over Light Magic and other topics make threads like this seem like a visit with Alice for tea and crumpets.

Yes.. the trade off of usenet... zero moderation Kill file to the rescue.. but still same problems today. Getting people to stop feeding the trolls

 

[JustChillinBro]

Sorry friends, but it looks like my time here is done.

I have been "discouraged" via the control panel as explained here: http://xenforo.com/help/discouraging-banning/

Pages load very slowly for me and may not load at all. It's actually pretty funny that something like that exists and even funnier that it's implemented without telling the user or others that it is happening! I bet Lee and WDW1974 (and Pageviews Steve as he is now called) are laughing about it this very second!

I am sorry for using offensive language and wish you all the best in your campaign to fix the bumblebees and other assorted effects that have such an impact on the enjoyment of your Walt Disney World vacations. Hopefully they will get those tiles back up on the ceiling or whatever ASAP.

 

[devoy1701]

Sorry friends, but it looks like my time here is done.

I have been "discouraged" via the control panel as explained here: http://xenforo.com/help/discouraging-banning/

Pages load very slowly for me and may not load at all. It's actually pretty funny that something like that exists and even funnier that it's implemented without telling the user or others that it is happening! I bet Lee and WDW1974 (and Pageviews Steve as he is now called) are laughing about it this very second!

I am sorry for using offensive language and wish you all the best in your campaign to fix the bumblebees and other assorted effects that have such an impact on the enjoyment of your Walt Disney World vacations. Hopefully they will get those tiles back up on the ceiling or whatever ASAP.

thanks for the link! Great to see XenForo allows Steve to block via IP address as well. Guess we can get rid of Crockett once and for all now!

 

[Captain Chaos]

thanks for the link! Great to see XenForo allows Steve to block via IP address as well. Guess we can get rid of Crockett once and for all now!

OFF TOPIC: Until he figures out how to falsify an IP address...

 

[JustChillinBro]

Any forum would allow you to ban via IP addresses. This sort of "discouragement" is available via a modification in vBulletin, but I'm surprised it's actually built into this forum software. It seems like a sort of subversive way to control users, since I was not actually notified that it was happening.