Transformative Multi-Year Expansion Announced for WDS Paris

[mrflo]

I don't think it's possible for Paris to be as profitable as the US parks as they are completely different operations. I think the best case scenario would be consistent year on year profitability which has never happened since the park opened.

I fully agree. Just compare the ticket prices in US, Genie+ upcharges, etc. Though seems like Disney is already aiming to push DLP to be a bit more on par with US parks. That's what Josh D’Amaro said about that topic last year in May:

"JPMorgan: Should we think of Paris running sort of full run rate like the U.S. at this point?

Josh D’Amaro: They're running really strong. I think there's still opportunity to go. And again, it's not just the product that is new and fresh at Disneyland Paris, it's also the commercial strategies. We're much more clear – much clearer in our commercial strategies. We're certainly not doing as much discounting as we have in the past, and the team has really taken it to the next level there."

Cutting discounts, adding more capacity to existing restaurants for profitability, price increases for tickets and passholders might be just a part of this new commercial strategy. I guess hand in hand with an overall expansion of DLP over the next few years we might also see more on that front as well. What do you expect to happen? Will DLP go more "premium"? Full Genie+ or other new upcharge features?

Like I said in my previous post, the "profitability" of DLP for TWDC might also include all those licensing & management fees that are costs for DLP in their own balance sheet. If TWDC for every 5 dollars that they invest in DLP expansion directly gains a profit of 1-2 dollars out of the Imagineering fees due to this whole scheme, that's already a very lucrative deal. If anyone knows more about the current setup, I would be very curious to learn more.

 

[fradz]

I was at the parks yesterday and can confirm it is becoming a bit of a maze, even for frequent park goers. But that is the price to pay for change, and change should be welcomed in the resort. More is coming

 

[Jordan dby]

It makes me smile when they talk about commercial strategy. As if they ever had a strategy to over discount or under price. They were maximising their revenues every year. Since covid they have charged more for less and to their surprise the parks remained full. My gut feel is this can't go on forever (especially as I reckon guest satisfaction is down a little bit vs pre covid), at some point
discounts will come back because it is better to let someone in half price than have the park underutilised.

Also Paris only ever really discounted hotels and restaurants as part of a package, and only for 3 days+. Without those offers there will just be more day trippers instead.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

It makes me smile when they talk about commercial strategy. As if they ever had a strategy to over discount or under price. They were maximising their revenues every year. Since covid they have charged more for less and to their surprise the parks remained full. My gut feel is this can't go on forever (especially as I reckon guest satisfaction is down a little bit vs pre covid), at some point
discounts will come back because it is better to let someone in half price than have the park underutilised.

Also Paris only ever really discounted hotels and restaurants as part of a package, and only for 3 days+. Without those offers there will just be more day trippers instead.

I am curious about the profitability of Disneyland Paris as it always seems so busy even when I go at "quiet" times (e.g. weekdays in February), but I still find the prices surprisingly reasonable and waits perfectly manageable when compared to the US parks. It makes me nervous when I see the official profit margins being quite slim that they'll push it too far toward the more anti-consumer policies of particularly WDW, and I just hope that it is more a case of what @mrflo suggests that a lot of the revenue is flowing back to Disney in ways that are shown as costs on DLP's balance sheet.

It does strike me that they are trying to match premium pricing with a premium product more directly with the recent hotel refurbishments and the attention to upkeep and entertainment in the parks. Dining is something they really need to look it as it's still hard to find a place for a sit-down meal in the parks for dinner on relatively slow days to almost impossible on busy days.

I suspect European consumers won't accept being pushed as far as US and international guests to WDW and there will just always be things such as wages and taxation that represent higher costs for them in France than the US. The guest mix must be interesting to deal with compared to WDW, too, as it is a combination of a destination resort, a local park, and a day-trip for people travelling to Paris. I don't think they'd really want to push a lot of the initiatives they have tried in WDW to over-complicate the planning process that would lose them any of those markets, even if I'm sure they'd prefer more guests staying on-site for multiple days. It wouldn't surprise me if this mix pushes them more toward providing incentives for staying on-site rather than penalties for not.

 

[marni1971]

I suspect European consumers won't accept being pushed as far as US and international guests

Took the words out of my mouth. Europeans are in the whole a different type of people who are used to paying the price for regional European parks as opposed to US Disney prices. I’m on several unofficial DLP social media sites and the amount of comments about pricing, costs, doing it cheaper etc. is telling.

 

[SplashJacket]

If pricing is at a breaking point in Paris, and they’re barely at profitability, what’s the solution? Cut pricing and operate at a loss?

 

[Indy_UK]

I think €100 an adult buffet at Disneyland hotel is now pushing it way too far. The regular price of €60 I can just about stomach because French law doesn’t allow refill drinks and you get the tiniest bottle included.

I don’t mind ticket raises when they are adding capacity like they are now but they do need to be careful.

I would love annual passes but for 3 of us, I’m not sure if it will be worth it plus once WDS expansion is done there will be another hefty increase

 

[cjkeating]

It makes me smile when they talk about commercial strategy. As if they ever had a strategy to over discount or under price. They were maximising their revenues every year. Since covid they have charged more for less and to their surprise the parks remained full. My gut feel is this can't go on forever (especially as I reckon guest satisfaction is down a little bit vs pre covid), at some point
discounts will come back because it is better to let someone in half price than have the park underutilised.

Yes but discounts were a given, everyone waited for the free nights or free dining discounts. Now when they need to stimulate some demand they can be selective in when and where they target discounting.

Cutting discounts, adding more capacity to existing restaurants for profitability, price increases for tickets and passholders might be just a part of this new commercial strategy. I guess hand in hand with an overall expansion of DLP over the next few years we might also see more on that front as well. What do you expect to happen? Will DLP go more "premium"? Full Genie+ or other new upcharge features?

There has certainly been a lot of low hanging fruit at DLP for them to improve to make some more cash and I'd say there was still quite a lot left. I'd expect Premier Access packages to make an appearance at some point. Or when WDSP relaunches split Premier Access between the two parks for the same price as it currently is.

If pricing is at a breaking point in Paris, and they’re barely at profitability, what’s the solution? Cut pricing and operate at a loss?

Pricing really isn't at breaking point, I'm not sure where you got that impression from? Yes there was noise about the new Annual Passes or DLH has some wild pricing. But if you are spending 1000 Euro on a hotel room what's a 100 Euro dinner? If you don't want that you have most other hotel buffets 35-40 Euro.

 

[Dr.GrantSeeker]

The Village is giving the park a run for its money

Is there going to be more of a theme to Disney Village once it’s done being renovated? Not necessarily on the level of Springs but hopefully better than what has been there? Also that Crescend’O dome has been looking terribly dirty these days.

 

[BrianLo]

If pricing is at a breaking point in Paris, and they’re barely at profitability, what’s the solution? Cut pricing and operate at a loss?

I also wouldn't say Paris is at a breaking point. But their solution is really to increase attendance.

As WDSP is seen more as a destination itself after phase 2 (really don't undersell the power of Frozen and a night show), the resort will consistently have a couple more million visitors. Hotel occupancy targets will be easier to hit. Discounting will lessen. Profits will rise further. I also wouldn't undersell what a transformation to Downtown Disney could do for it as a destination resort. Disney Spring is ridiculously popular and likely one of Disney's biggest success stories of last decade.

DLRP is in a great position. Unlike HKDL they are comfortably profitable prior to Frozen.

 

[cjkeating]

But their solution is really to increase attendance.

Yes. I meant to get to this in my previous post but realise I didn't.

Disneyland Park does all the heavy lifting from an attendance/capacity point of view, so getting to a closer balance between DLP and WDSP will free up more capacity in DLP. It's basically free capacity if you can transfer people to the underutilized park and every additional guest is profit.

Hotel occupancy targets will be easier to hit.

I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen any firm rumorus about the 4th lake hotel. If it is phased as part of the Disney Village overhall then it will be in Phase 2/3 but I can't see it opening before 2030 if that is the case and I think they need hotel capacity for WDSP 2.0 opening.

I also wouldn't undersell what a transformation to Downtown Disney could do for it as a destination resort. Disney Spring is ridiculously popular and likely one of Disney's biggest success stories of last decade.

Yes. Having DV as a place you actually want to spend time in will help the resort package tremendously, I know some people had nostalgia for DV but it has been a dated blot on the resort for too long. I really hope we get some new cafes, bars or Disney Springs style quick service where you can relax and socialise in the overhaul.

 

[BrianLo]

I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen any firm rumorus about the 4th lake hotel. If it is phased as part of the Disney Village overhall then it will be in Phase 2/3 but I can't see it opening before 2030 if that is the case and I think they need hotel capacity for WDSP 2.0 opening.

Maybe @marni1971 can speak to that. I have no idea if current occupancy justifies another hotel. It didn't in 2017.

 

[nickys]

As WDSP is seen more as a destination itself after phase 2 (really don't undersell the power of Frozen and a night show), the resort will consistently have a couple more million visitors.

I don’t see a sudden flood of extra visitors just because of Frozen and a night show. The market for Frozen is the same as the market for Princesses. Surely it was Marvel that should have enticed extra visitors who may not have been before.

People may stay longer, add an extra day . But that could simply mean staying 2 nights instead of 1, or 3 instead of 2. Will that equate to an extra 2 million? That’s 5.5K extra people in the parks each day.

They really need to announce the new land. Anecdotally, kids at the primary school I work at tell me “Mum & Dad say they’ll take me to Disneyland Paris when Star Wars is open”. The boarding up at WDSP still says Star Wars is coming. In the U.K. at least, Star Wars would be far more of a lure than Lion King, for both kids and adults. Presumably there’s evidence that in mainland Europe Lion King is more popular. But I don’t think it will increase visitor numbers from the U.K. My guess is that those same families waiting for Star Wars will save for a trip to Orlando instead, where they have Star Wars , Harry Potter and the Nintendo characters.

 

[marni1971]

Is there going to be more of a theme to Disney Village once it’s done being renovated? Not necessarily on the level of Springs but hopefully better than what has been there? Also that Crescend’O dome has been looking terribly dirty these days.

I’m not sure about a theme, but there will be more of a consistent look:

The new Brasserie style is an indication of the direction.

Discounting will lessen

Discounting has pretty much already gone. Pretty sure someone earlier wrote about the pre Covid package discounting. I wrote earlier about Europe wanting more value or less cost. There isn’t as big a die hard fan base over here as there is in the US who will pay whatever Iger demands.

Maybe @marni1971 can speak to that. I have no idea if current occupancy justifies another hotel. It didn't in 2017.

That hotel has been on and off pretty much since 1992! Europes economic situation is still currently pretty ropey and AFAIK occupancy still has plenty of slack, especially in the quieter months. DLP attendance is still greatly dictated by school holidays and the time of year / season. I dare say that will always be the case for Europe. There are also plenty of popular offsite lodgings, many with free shuttle or in walking distance. The 4th lake hotel is expected to be a convention destination (though Newports meeting facilities helped spread that load in 1994 and onwards) so that could be another justification. It won’t be a budget hotel, the spreadsheet boys will be seeing if it can be justified yet at the intended price point. Personally I’d say no.

 

[nickys]

Hotel occupancy targets will be easier to hit.

I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen any firm rumorus about the 4th lake hotel. If it is phased as part of the Disney Village overhall then it will be in Phase 2/3 but I can't see it opening before 2030 if that is the case and I think they need hotel capacity for WDSP 2.0 opening.

I’m not convinced they need an extra hotel. I booked Sequoia 2 months out for October and could have chosen any of the hotels - and that was with one of them shut for renovation.

Val d’Europe is 5 minutes away, 20 minutes walk at most. With the late park opening times it’s easy to be ready for “rope drop”.

Price wise, because we just needed one room I opted to pay a little more and stay onsite. The difference wasn’t huge, €100 extra roughly. If we needed 2 rooms I doubt we’d stay onsite, we could stay at a 2-bed apartment in Val d’Europe for much less. We’d lose early entry, that’s the only draw-back.

 

[Indy_UK]

Maybe the refurb of all these resorts instead of a 4th lake resort would be better in pushing the occupancy of those instead?

 

[marni1971]

Maybe the refurb of all these resorts instead of a 4th lake resort would be better in pushing the occupancy of those instead?

Well, Sequoia has started -and is the last - for the complete overhauls. And apart from the lack of USB we don’t find anything wrong with it currently.

 

[Jordan dby]

Agree on Sequoia, it is a perfectly nice hotel. We stayed there this week (actually in the little corridor on floor 4 that has been renovated - wooden bits fell off a couple of times). Honestly except for location it matched DLH when we stayed there pre-refurb. There is a general lack of 5 bed rooms though for families of 5 so our next stay may be at DLH as it appears reasonable vs 2x 4 bed rooms elsewhere (although if discounts don't return we may look off site).

Remember from disney's point of view, if they sell you a hotel room that means they are going to sell you all your food and drink for the entire stay. In california we hardly ever eat in the park, we walk over the road.

 

[nickys]

Agree on Sequoia, it is a perfectly nice hotel. We stayed there this week (actually in the little corridor on floor 4 that has been renovated - wooden bits fell off a couple of times). Honestly except for location it matched DLH when we stayed there pre-refurb. There is a general lack of 5 bed rooms though for families of 5 so our next stay may be at DLH as it appears reasonable vs 2x 4 bed rooms elsewhere (although if discounts don't return we may look off site).

Remember from disney's point of view, if they sell you a hotel room that means they are going to sell you all your food and drink for the entire stay. In california we hardly ever eat in the park, we walk over the road.

I don’t see them adding rooms for 5 tbh.
It’s just not common this side of the pond. In fact they’re bucking the trend by allowing 4 adults to stay in one room.

Plus it would mean reconfiguring the rooms, there just isn’t space to add another bed.

 

[mrflo]

I don’t see a sudden flood of extra visitors just because of Frozen and a night show. The market for Frozen is the same as the market for Princesses. Surely it was Marvel that should have enticed extra visitors who may not have been before.

I see it the same way. Frozen in WDS might mainly reshuffle some of the visitors from Disneyland Parc or at least trigger some earlier revisits. For capturing completely new audiences or regain some market share in countries like Germany, DLP needs to broaden its appeal and/or deliver a blockbuster attraction like Space Mountain did in the mid-90s. Let's see what the LK will be able to contribute in the second half of the decade.

They will make some extra money through dining packages, VIP seating, etc. with the new restaurant and lake show for sure. But operating costs for staffing, maintenance, running the lake show, etc. will increase as well. Hence, a certain number of incremental visitors & revenue will already be required to keep the current level of profitability.

Europe wanting more value or less cost.

Seeing how Europa-Park has been expanding in additional luxury suites or the Eatrenalin dining experience (starting 255€ per person) seems like there is demand and a market in Europe for more premium offerings. However, the key - like you say - is the actual value that is being provided. And that's where Disney needs to be more careful in Europe - e.g. better food quality or the poor service in DLH.