englanddg
One Little Spark...
He quit and came back as someone else.
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The Spirited Sixth Sense ...
- Thread starter WDW1974
- Start date
The Empress Lilly
Well-Known Member
And there I was thinking you'd be happy to see me and my numbers! Guess that was a roll of menthos in your pocket then after all...
I'll answer your questions: a price roughly somewhat above market cap; roughly market cap and a number above or below it based on strategic positions; the 30 executive.
Let me ask you a simple question in return applying roughly the same rhetorical devices: If Iger performs eight times better than Eisner do you not agree that any sane shareholder should prefer Iger over Eisner? A simple yes or no will suffice.
At stake however is none of that, but that the numbers presented in your anonymous mail draw a nearly pointless comparison based on market cap numbers to compare Eisner with Iger. And related, that if one does compare in such a manner, that it is Iger who emerges triumphantly.
Here's more fun with numbers, sorry, always had a thing for facts. (And since when is an education something suspect?)
There's pesky inflation. Cumulative inflation between 1983 and 2005 stands at 100%. This swipes off half of the stock price increase profits. In Iger's decade, cumulative inlation has been only twenty percent, swiping off a rather more modest chunk.
Even more impactful, in 1983, DIS stock collapsed. From hovering around $2 the stock crashed to half that, below $1. Stock prices rebounced to $2 pretty much immediately when the take-over and leadership issues had been resolved. That, I'm afraid, swipes off half of that 'Eisner increased stock times 30' mythology. Half of it can be attributed simply to the crashed stock price rebounce before Eisner had even been introduced to his personal assistant.
So unless one happened to have bought DIS exactly at the low point, Eisner merely oversaw a fifteenfold stock increase. If that sounds a lot, the average stock increased twelvefold in this same period. A blindfolded gorilla would barely have fared worse by throwing darts to decide which stock to buy than the Disney investor. And he'd be safer too, except for risk capital one would prefer a spread over the total Dow for 1200% return than to put it all in a risky single basket for 1500%.
Iger, for his part, oversaw a near tripling of DIS stock price during a very sluggish decade, drastically outperforming the general stock index. The answer to the question 'who is the better CEO based on market cap realisation?' to the investor is clearly Iger. He outperforms the Dow much more than Eisner. Although, again, I do think using market cap without context and interpretation in this manner is mostly meaningless. A case can be made for Eisner, but this one is not it, I'm afraid.
Ooh, so many rhetorical devices and logical fallacies deployed! Delicious!
I'm sure a lot of people would fall for those too, but then, those are your audience more than mine. (Oh, and an Authority Argument too? Really? 
)But Rasulo!? Please say it isn't so!
englanddg
One Little Spark...
With more marketable "assets" (as this was the phase where Disney Animation decided to Jessica Rabbit every heroin, something they dropped by Mulan...but we got Pocahontas and Hunchback...)
CDavid
Well-Known Member
I fully agree, and unfortunately I am guilty as well. Too easy to get sucked into the nonsense sometimes.
englanddg
One Little Spark...
Lets talk MM+.
1) Infrastructure
This is expensive, and anyone who is net based or cellular based to make their living (as I am, I can't be disconnected for very long, and I'm becoming more and more the norm) will say, the infrastructure at WDW was lacking...severely lacking. I can relate stories where I've had terrible internet (wireless) at CBR or Pop even as recently as 2012. Not to mention cellular coverage being spotty both at the parks and the hotels (one year, at CBR, I only had cellular coverage just outside my room door, and since I had a conference call with a vendor, had to keep running outside to talk to them, then back inside to do something on the computer, then back outside to talk to them some more).
I can happily report, with two resorts (CR and POFQ) that in 2013, this was not an issue. And, this upgrade is expensive, but frankly and urban level infrastructure upgrade which needed to be done.
Of the rumored 2 billion (I don't fault the number), I wonder how much of it was that...and...yes, this needed to be done. Period.
2) Magicbands
Ok, they are gimmicky. Their marketed "value", which is ease, is vastly overrated (the old KTTW system did pretty much everything the MB system does, the best new feature is Photopass integration, really). However, they also are quite convenient (except on some hotel room doors where it physically hurts to put your arm in the right position for "mickey to mickey"...as a side note, it would be better to mount the readers mid-door...maybe an upgrade for the future).
Many kids won't want to wear them all day, just like many kids didn't wear their lanyards all day, and that's an annoyance for parents. It's not as simple as a card to slip into a wallet as the KTTW was. But, overall, it's not a bad concept.
Some of the promises made for it's RFID features are a bit sky high once you break them down to operations, and senior management (like Staggs, who probably thinks SEO is a solid investment because his retarded business buddies think so as well) shouldn't have marketed them as a plus...but, that being said, traffic shaping and other data collected from the bluetooth section of the bands is extremely useful to improve park operations (not sales/revenue...operations).
However, if you look at it from their perspective, while improving operations efficiency is massively important for the bottom line, it's also not sexy to investors (unless you plan to outsource, that is sexy). Especially if it involves significant initial investment. So, rather, you sell it as something else.
3) FP+, MDE, Magicbands
MDE and FP+ gets lumped in with Magicbands more then it should. They are separate systems that integrate. Yes, Disney is trying to get you to stay on site, but also Disney is trying to pull a Progressive/Geico move (I use that analogy because I work in Insurance, and it's apt). They want to cut out the middle man.
Hence, MDE...
Sites like this, and more importantly, tons of travel agents, not only in the US but overseas, make a mint (not saying forum sites make a mint, just using it as a point) off of Disney...planning peoples vacations, people asking for advice...etc...etc...etc...
This means there is a medium, a rather large one (this isn't the only, nor the largest, WDW site out there) which Disney does not control.
Heck, there are people ON THIS FORUM who have paid for touring plans, apps for their phones and travel services. Nothing wrong with any of that, but again, look at it from Disney's standpoint.
They want you to use them and WDTC, that's it. And, if you were in their shoes, you would feel the same.
By creating tools to make it easier for people to plan their trips (such as MDE), and added "benefits", like FP+...they not only target those who may plan to leave the property (they really don't care, chips all out, if you go to Uni for a day, as long as you stay in one of their resorts...they really don't...think about it, you pay an inflated hotel rate, but stress their resources less...they don't care. Heck, they'd love for you to stay at PORS for 3 days but only visit Uni. Talk about profits! Sure, they'd rather you stay on property and spend money with them, but they already made their cash off you...the rest is gravy.)
But, back on track, they not only target those who may plan to leave property, they help those who are unsure of their visit plan out their days to STAY on property. There is a LOT to do at WDW, and with MDE, Disney has decided to toss that out in the open for every guest to see, and think about, before coming.
No more being overwhelmed before a trip and turning to forums for advice or creating spreadsheets. No need to go to allears or here or something to get restaurant hours and menus. Instead, you can get all you need from MDE.
And, I think that is a VERY smart move on their part. And very forward thinking. They can control the content, they can control the message...
But, back to FP+...there's nothing wrong with the system. It's neat and it works well. It's far more likely to be taken advantage of by people who know the parks (for example, regulars at MK are FAR more likely to get a Peter Pan FP+ then those who think that the teacups are a terrible wait...)
But, it is what it is. I enjoyed it. I don't see it as a bad thing for those who are staying on site. Criticisms that it hurts guests who stay offsite are valid, and frankly...I don't care. Disney doesn't have capacity issues with the parks, and it shouldn't manage as if it did.
Those who say it's unfair, I'd point out that staying at a "deluxe" (since there are about to be two levels) Universal hotel grants you UNLIMITED FASTPASS...and yes, you can buy it if you stay offsite, but if you do, you may as well pay to stay onsite. Disney is using the same exact tactic (without marketing it to you every 20 feet, like they do with Express Pass at Uni).
4) Customer Facing and Back Office Systems redesign and integration
This is what I think is largely missed. Ever visited disneyland.com or disneycruise.com recently? They are integrating all their sites (and back end systems) into one. They are starting to look and operate very similar to the WDW site. This is a MASSIVE expense, but carries with it the potential for future operations.
For example, planning a split visit (WDW -> DCL -> WDW) trip this past year carried with it some hassles...however, with integrated systems, this would not be the case.
And THIS, is what the 2b is really for, I suspect. Getting them all on the same operating platform...eventually worldwide. And this is a good thing.
Summary
Is it a massive financial failure? As marketed to the general public (that it would drive per guest spending up)...probably, actually, it's hard to say it wasn't a failure.
But, is it a failure as a whole? I would say no. I think, in this case, the executives are quite aware of these issues, and this is the trojan horse they used to sell it to the outside world (namely investors).
But, that's my opinion. And, for the record, I largely am not a fan of MM+...and I've voiced that several times. However...
Like it, or hate it...MM+ is, as has been mentioned, "too big to fail"...but it's a lot more than plastic bracelets and phone apps.
1) Infrastructure
This is expensive, and anyone who is net based or cellular based to make their living (as I am, I can't be disconnected for very long, and I'm becoming more and more the norm) will say, the infrastructure at WDW was lacking...severely lacking. I can relate stories where I've had terrible internet (wireless) at CBR or Pop even as recently as 2012. Not to mention cellular coverage being spotty both at the parks and the hotels (one year, at CBR, I only had cellular coverage just outside my room door, and since I had a conference call with a vendor, had to keep running outside to talk to them, then back inside to do something on the computer, then back outside to talk to them some more).
I can happily report, with two resorts (CR and POFQ) that in 2013, this was not an issue. And, this upgrade is expensive, but frankly and urban level infrastructure upgrade which needed to be done.
Of the rumored 2 billion (I don't fault the number), I wonder how much of it was that...and...yes, this needed to be done. Period.
2) Magicbands
Ok, they are gimmicky. Their marketed "value", which is ease, is vastly overrated (the old KTTW system did pretty much everything the MB system does, the best new feature is Photopass integration, really). However, they also are quite convenient (except on some hotel room doors where it physically hurts to put your arm in the right position for "mickey to mickey"...as a side note, it would be better to mount the readers mid-door...maybe an upgrade for the future).
Many kids won't want to wear them all day, just like many kids didn't wear their lanyards all day, and that's an annoyance for parents. It's not as simple as a card to slip into a wallet as the KTTW was. But, overall, it's not a bad concept.
Some of the promises made for it's RFID features are a bit sky high once you break them down to operations, and senior management (like Staggs, who probably thinks SEO is a solid investment because his retarded business buddies think so as well) shouldn't have marketed them as a plus...but, that being said, traffic shaping and other data collected from the bluetooth section of the bands is extremely useful to improve park operations (not sales/revenue...operations).
However, if you look at it from their perspective, while improving operations efficiency is massively important for the bottom line, it's also not sexy to investors (unless you plan to outsource, that is sexy). Especially if it involves significant initial investment. So, rather, you sell it as something else.
3) FP+, MDE, Magicbands
MDE and FP+ gets lumped in with Magicbands more then it should. They are separate systems that integrate. Yes, Disney is trying to get you to stay on site, but also Disney is trying to pull a Progressive/Geico move (I use that analogy because I work in Insurance, and it's apt). They want to cut out the middle man.
Hence, MDE...
Sites like this, and more importantly, tons of travel agents, not only in the US but overseas, make a mint (not saying forum sites make a mint, just using it as a point) off of Disney...planning peoples vacations, people asking for advice...etc...etc...etc...
This means there is a medium, a rather large one (this isn't the only, nor the largest, WDW site out there) which Disney does not control.
Heck, there are people ON THIS FORUM who have paid for touring plans, apps for their phones and travel services. Nothing wrong with any of that, but again, look at it from Disney's standpoint.
They want you to use them and WDTC, that's it. And, if you were in their shoes, you would feel the same.
By creating tools to make it easier for people to plan their trips (such as MDE), and added "benefits", like FP+...they not only target those who may plan to leave the property (they really don't care, chips all out, if you go to Uni for a day, as long as you stay in one of their resorts...they really don't...think about it, you pay an inflated hotel rate, but stress their resources less...they don't care. Heck, they'd love for you to stay at PORS for 3 days but only visit Uni. Talk about profits! Sure, they'd rather you stay on property and spend money with them, but they already made their cash off you...the rest is gravy.)
But, back on track, they not only target those who may plan to leave property, they help those who are unsure of their visit plan out their days to STAY on property. There is a LOT to do at WDW, and with MDE, Disney has decided to toss that out in the open for every guest to see, and think about, before coming.
No more being overwhelmed before a trip and turning to forums for advice or creating spreadsheets. No need to go to allears or here or something to get restaurant hours and menus. Instead, you can get all you need from MDE.
And, I think that is a VERY smart move on their part. And very forward thinking. They can control the content, they can control the message...
But, back to FP+...there's nothing wrong with the system. It's neat and it works well. It's far more likely to be taken advantage of by people who know the parks (for example, regulars at MK are FAR more likely to get a Peter Pan FP+ then those who think that the teacups are a terrible wait...)
But, it is what it is. I enjoyed it. I don't see it as a bad thing for those who are staying on site. Criticisms that it hurts guests who stay offsite are valid, and frankly...I don't care. Disney doesn't have capacity issues with the parks, and it shouldn't manage as if it did.
Those who say it's unfair, I'd point out that staying at a "deluxe" (since there are about to be two levels) Universal hotel grants you UNLIMITED FASTPASS...and yes, you can buy it if you stay offsite, but if you do, you may as well pay to stay onsite. Disney is using the same exact tactic (without marketing it to you every 20 feet, like they do with Express Pass at Uni).
4) Customer Facing and Back Office Systems redesign and integration
This is what I think is largely missed. Ever visited disneyland.com or disneycruise.com recently? They are integrating all their sites (and back end systems) into one. They are starting to look and operate very similar to the WDW site. This is a MASSIVE expense, but carries with it the potential for future operations.
For example, planning a split visit (WDW -> DCL -> WDW) trip this past year carried with it some hassles...however, with integrated systems, this would not be the case.
And THIS, is what the 2b is really for, I suspect. Getting them all on the same operating platform...eventually worldwide. And this is a good thing.
Summary
Is it a massive financial failure? As marketed to the general public (that it would drive per guest spending up)...probably, actually, it's hard to say it wasn't a failure.
But, is it a failure as a whole? I would say no. I think, in this case, the executives are quite aware of these issues, and this is the trojan horse they used to sell it to the outside world (namely investors).
But, that's my opinion. And, for the record, I largely am not a fan of MM+...and I've voiced that several times. However...
Like it, or hate it...MM+ is, as has been mentioned, "too big to fail"...but it's a lot more than plastic bracelets and phone apps.
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PeterAlt
Well-Known Member
Ah, when Avatar is completed, all will be forgiven!
WDWDad13
Well-Known Member
I agree... and there are plenty of things being worked on behind the scenes and just not announced (assuming some of them will be anyways down the road - who knows). I think Disney is doing a better job these days too keeping things under wraps (ex. Avatar, Disney Springs, new parade). Some things in these projects (and sometimes the entire project) were surprises
People forget Uni was "stale" for a pretty long time so they have to go with expansion and refreshing their park commando style... Disney is taking a more paced approach....because...well....they can... and while all of us would prefer lots of new things opening tomorrow (including me!) we just have to realize that's just not going to happen.
...but like you said, some of the more recent indications of things going on certainly seem to be on a more positive trend towards the right direction. Maybe the Uni changes are helping...and either way competition is a good things for us all
Hardly.
JimboJones123
Well-Known Member
Ah yes.... the lost flock of Disney's rally call.PeterAlt said:
WDWDad13
Well-Known Member
your opinion - and none of us have seen Pandora yet so....
WDWDad13
Well-Known Member
glad I could be of assistance
... and I am very serious by the way about questioning why real Disney fans are ALL about rides? There is so much to do and see...maybe people should stop and take in their surrounding more from time to time instead of running to ride A, B, C, etc. I'm not saying rides aren't important...and yes they may even be the most important things to some degree, but "rides" aren't what makes Disney World solely what it is...it's a part of it....and with those who focus just on "rides"...well I can see why so many of then drool over Uni and need a wet nap.
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
I'll be honest here, although initially the topics are informative and interesting, by the time everyone adds their advanced knowledge to it, it become boring and tedious. Occasionally these threads require a renegade to jump in and wake people out of their drooling stupor.With all due respect, Goof ... that BS. One poster came in here on a Sunday when the mods were off or busy and pushed the thread into insanity. I will worry about things like that when I well understand the purpose.
EDIT: And I didn't mean that to sound as nasty as it may have. I am a bit peeved at the poster who had 12 hours to kill and was allowed to take this off the rails. I put a lot of effort into posting on this site and giving honest opinions mixed with first-hand knowledge of Disney, UNI and the entertainment industry for which I am not compensated. All of those 'hits' you reference, only go to help WDWMAGIC.com's bottom line, not mine. I haven't ever sought to monetize this reality of mine. Apparently, I'm a whale in the fan community ... and I'll never fit into my bathing suit for spring break!!!
Start shooting out numbers and comparisons based on those numbers and my mind wanders off to days of my youth. I was an accountant, (for awhile before I regained my sanity) and numbers are useless. They only paint a picture to just a few. Throw them out to a group that probably has trouble keeping their checkbook balanced and it might just as well be in code.
These threads are meant for discussion, but there has never been a discussion in my life that either a) didn't wander off in many directions or b) were held in a board room of a giant company. (OK, even then (a) applied)
I know you do not profit directly, cash wise, no matter what the "hit" count is, but, be honest now, you know that your heart speeds up just a little when you look at the count. I know this because you have said so in the past. Nothing wrong with that... just saying!
I don't and I doubt that most people mature enough to have lived in this world and understand the realities of life either find it amusing or useful. Talk about topics, talk about the weather, if you want, but when the talk gets to the point of degrading others just to sound cool and build up one's own ego, sorry but that's just not cool.
Alien Encounter was a good attraction. It was the external pressure from the Mommy's, who apparently were unable to read warning signs, to protect their tender little snowflakes from being scared, that pushed that along, and you're correct englanddg, it was more a case of being in the wrong park. The logic with that placement, as well as Stitch, was the Tomorrowland future Alien presence which for all we know, could happen. So to me that's a grey area.
That said, Stitch isn't really that bad either, but, it did get to be another "cool" stance to hate it. That lead to negative discussions and the general put down of the attraction. Nothing will make the hair stand up on the back of my head faster then to hear alleged GROWN UPS talk about how the "burp" smell makes them nauseous. I sure wouldn't want to rely on any of them to come through in a crisis, how weak have we become as a species anyway?
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GiveMeTheMusic
Well-Known Member
I learn the most FASCINATING things from the Disney Parks Blog. Did you know that The Lion King was released in 1996? Me neither!
http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/bl...ember-the-magic-parade-at-magic-kingdom-park/
EDIT: The post was updated to remove the error.
http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/bl...ember-the-magic-parade-at-magic-kingdom-park/
EDIT: The post was updated to remove the error.
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GLaDOS
Well-Known Member
New Universal is about much, much more than just rides. This summer will prove that on both coasts.
The times, they are-a changin'.
WDWDad13
Well-Known Member
for Uni yes... times are-a changin'....and that's a good thing. They need it...and I like the aggressiveness... hopefully competition will be a good thing and we all can benefit wherever we like to go
Scuttle
Well-Known Member
I think he meant more about how WDW has been left to die the past 5 years and is literally falling apart and show issues are still just as bad as they were a few years back. A new land isn't going erase a memory of the fall of park maintenance.
GLaDOS
Well-Known Member
WDW's glacial pace isn't going to change anytime soon, sadly. And the sickness is spreading out west.
GLaDOS
Well-Known Member
Or the entertainment cuts. Or the fact that DHS and EPCOT will have gone a decade without additions by the time Pandora opens.