yellowstone7123
Member
So much to do, where to start? Tommorowland..... 60% should be ripped out and redone.
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The Spirited Sixth Sense ...
- Thread starter WDW1974
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So much to do, where to start? Tommorowland..... 60% should be ripped out and redone.
Funmeister
Well-Known Member
WDW's current trends are going to last a while. WDW is years away from reaching a tipping point unless Universal goes for the jugular or economic conditions worsen. U.S. car manufacturers would still be making gas-guzzling clunkers if not for external market forces. It was those market forces that forced Detroit to produce a better product, not any internal soul-searching.
That's what made Walt Disney so special. He drove himself to make a better product. Today's WDW is leeching off the reputation of a man who has been dead for nearly 50 years.
Burbank is going to keep insisting that WDW make its numbers and, after the MyMagic+ debacle, is going to be hesitant to invest heavily again in WDW.
This means:
- Continued higher prices
- Continued quality cuts
- Continued park stagnation
- A growing number of families unable to afford WDW
In other words, no end in sight.
"Best in class" has been replaced with "good enough".
We'll get Star Wars Land eventually but it will be painfully slow, like New Fantasyland and Pandora.
To fully restore WDW to its former grandeur will take billions, something that's not going to happen with Disney's current executive management.
We'll still have those defending WDW, writing "it's worth every penny", "I don't let the little stuff bother me", "WDW doesn't need new rides, it needs a Frozen overlay on Maelstrom and another meet & greet", and their favorite "if you don't like it (or can't afford it), don't go".
We'll get those saying it's OK for four theme parks to go years between additions. At the current pace, WDW's next attraction will be in 2030.
Unless we get a Hall of the Frozen Presidents before then.
It's going to get worse before it gets better. If it gets better.
That's the part that saddens me the most.
I think it would take $4 to $5 billion to get the quality to a level that compliments the current marketing. DHS and Epcot both need a $1b investment on the scale of DCA. The biggest need is transportation infrastructure. Disney service stinks mainly because of the lack of service when it comes to getting around the resort.
As I always say...if you are sitting on a bench waiting for a bus you are not in the parks spending money. Too much wasted time for someone being on 'vacation.'
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
IF we were concurrently getting a DHS overhaul (Star Wars WITH Pixar place or at least major place-making in lieu) I'd give WDW a passing grade for the decade. At least it would be two steps forward (DHS + AK), one treading water (MK/Disney Springs minus Worsening prices/Transportation issues) and one step back (EPCOT).
Right now we are headed for one step forward, two steps backwards realm of things.
Of course they could also improve EPCOT too... but that's asking too much.
Lee
Adventurer
No, it's legit.
He has...issues. Acknowledged ones.
For those who don't know, he has/had multiple accounts here. Countrybearfan for one.
Funmeister
Well-Known Member
Yeah Epcot needs a lot of work. No less than three FW pavilions need major work not to mention WS could use something...not restaurants. Hell E[cot coulf use $1.5b or $2b. But as long as Food & Wine #1 and Food & Wine #2 keep selling overpriced food samples and alcohol then it will never happen.
Sad but true.
SSE unfinished
Energy 20 years
(Lack of) Life
No Imagination
Circle of 94
Seas n cheap
Tombstones
Canopies
Innoventions West (we extended it and now can't fill it)
Odd-y-ou-can't-see-inside
Impressions of 1982
RoE sinking ship(s)
And please.... make the AmAd digital. The sprocket issue is beyond funny now.
SSE unfinished
Energy 20 years
(Lack of) Life
No Imagination
Circle of 94
Seas n cheap
Tombstones
Canopies
Innoventions West (we extended it and now can't fill it)
Odd-y-ou-can't-see-inside
Impressions of 1982
RoE sinking ship(s)
And please.... make the AmAd digital. The sprocket issue is beyond funny now.
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TP2000
Well-Known Member
When you put it like that, it's downright depressing.
It almost seems like here in the 2010's that Epcot needs a DCA-style remake and relaunch.
SirNim
Well-Known Member
And it would be 10 years overdue. It's like the foundations are all there, in solid concrete, but the buildings themselves are crumbling (metaphorically). Much like 11th Century Jerusalem, Epcot is in need of a Crusade. (No offense to 11th century inhabitants of the eastern Mediterranean.)When you put it like that, it's downright depressing.
It almost seems like here in the 2010's that Epcot needs a DCA-style remake and relaunch.
Next Big Thing
Well-Known Member
It's needed a DCA style redo for awhile now.When you put it like that, it's downright depressing.
It almost seems like here in the 2010's that Epcot needs a DCA-style remake and relaunch.
FrankLapidus
Well-Known Member
alphac2005
Well-Known Member
That's because the US media is consumed with the latest gaffe or taking something out of context to play to their partisan crowd and to fill 24 hours of talking heads blabbering about the same garbage instead of real news. I swear I wanted to throw something at the TV when on the new season of 'House of Cards' supposed US journalists are acting and "interviewing" these characters. What joke and it made me all the more irritated to see people from the political spectrum that I agree with do their little acting nonsense. I might live in the US, but I barely get "news" from any US outlets because I'd be borderline brain dead if I did.
ford91exploder
Resident Curmudgeon
Agree as a kid used to listen to VoA, BBC and 'Radio Moscow' on the SW set, You got your real news from VoA and BBC and listened to Radio Moscow for laughs,
Now VoA is history, you can still get real news from BBC and Radio Moscow has joined the trustworthy news services.
It's the US press which is spreading propaganda these days with ABC, CBS NBC & NPR+PBS being the propaganda arm of the DNC and Fox the RNC however unlike the big 4 they do allow dissenting voices.
In my wildest dreams I never thought I would be reading Pravda and watching 'Russia Today' for hard news while the US media blathers on how dreamy the first couple is and the meaningless doings of the denizens of Hollywood (or was that Hollyweird).
It's the old Roman 'Bread and Circuses' routine to distract the majority of the population from the grim reality of what is happening in DC.
FutureWorld1982
Well-Known Member
When you put it like that, it's downright depressing.
It almost seems like here in the 2010's that Epcot needs a DCA-style remake and relaunch.
Almost, but at least half of the park is decent (despite the lack of attractions, World Showcase if great-looking). DCA was a complete mess. Still, Epcot needs really a lot of help.
wishiwere@wdw
Well-Known Member
I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. While many times depressing, you do a great job driving home the point and keeping it realYou have to think of hotel rooms as production capacity.
You don't increase capacity in order to have even more spare capacity. You increase it because you need to use it.
I don't double production capacity only to have half of that added capacity go unused. That's a poor use of company resources; highly wasteful.
No one can ever accuse WDW of not wanting to optimize production. To the contrary, they've become so obsessed with optimizing production that their leadership has lost site that their guests are not raw material; they are people.
WDW's room additions reflect what they thought they needed or, more to the point, what they thought they could sell.
AOA increased "production" capacity by 724K room nights per year yet "units sold" went up by only 362K, 50%.
For nearly any vacation hotel, 50% is pretty bad. Given that WDW hotels used to traditionally run at 90% occupancy, it's a disaster. Remember, during WDW's post-9/11 crisis when they were closing buildings and laying off Cast Members, occupancy was 76%.
As recently as 2008, Disney's occupancy was 89%.
In the 21st Century, WDW's occupancy rate has been propped up by DVC. WDW has tripled the number of DVC units since 2000.
As a timeshare, once sold, it becomes the member's problem to make sure that the room is filled.
I'm a DVC member. If I'm not using my DVC points then I better be sure that I am renting them to someone or giving them away to a family member. (Don't you wish you were my relative?
However, even if I use my DVC points, that doesn't mean I'm going to show up at the theme parks. I'm like any consumer, I'm going to WDW's theme parks if I think it's worth it.
I really enjoy WDW's water parks. I'm there!
WDW's theme parks are another matter. I've been skipping those and heading elsewhere when I'm in Orlando, mostly Universal. I'm not the only DVC member doing that. Remember, we're timeshare owners; we have to go every year. That means we get bored with the same old same old faster than most.
My DVC points are being used but I'm not spending money at the theme parks. I'm paying less that $100/night most nights for a Deluxe Resort Studio, less than $300/night for a Deluxe Resort 2-bedroom villa which consists of 3 rooms. (For example, I paid $294/night for a Boardwalk View 2-bedroom villa at the Boardwalk Villas for Thanksgiving.) Compare that to what non-DVC members are paying and what they are getting for their money.
And I'm sure not spending money at WDW's overpriced restaurants (I've got a kitchen in my villa) or on their overpriced merchandise. It's not like the old days when the only place I could find something was at WDW. "One Disney" has sucked the fun out of shopping at WDW.
WDW is making money off me. But they are missing so many opportunities to make even more. They keep grabbing at my pennies and missing my dollars.
The point is, WDW's timeshares help boost the hotel occupancy rates but they don't necessarily translate into park dollars.
Since it's glory days when WDW hotels ran at 90% occupancy, WDW has mostly built timeshares and Value Resorts.
Both opened up new markets to WDW. Both should have improved WDW's occupancy rate even more. The added DVCs and the first 4 Value Resorts did exactly that.
Yet WDW's overall occupancy rate has declined. Imagine what's been happening at WDW's original hotel base, its Deluxe and Moderate Resorts, hotel categories that used to run at over 90%.
Trends at WDW's hotels are bad, really bad.
. Don't feel you have to answer but I was really curious about something.... As I'm also a parent of 4, we were more or less left with little choice but to join DVC as a way to visit WDW and stay onsite. Not only were 2 connected hotel rooms too tight of quarters but also obscenely expensive. I was curious if you initially looked at DVC for the same reason as there really was no other onsite option at the time. I bring this up because besides the ridiculous high prices at AOA causing low occupancy, it's feasible that a large group of potential guests did the same thing we did and went with DVC back in the 90's and early 00's and therefore are not interested in a over glorified, already connected suite. If AOA had existed back when #4, or even #3 for that matter were on the way and was priced right, I doubt we would be DVC members today. Although I'm glad we bought when we did now
. It's worth pointing out that even with our AP's (premium at that this past year), we found ourselves using DVC as more of a home base while visiting other central FL destinations... Or the water parks!
I've thought about EPCOT more than any other Disney park over the years. Mostly because it used to be my favorite theme park on the planet and now it is far from that. Here's part of what I think happened. There are several posters on here (@lazyboy97o comes to mind) who seem to be quite adept at analyzing large societal trends and then inferring how it impacts theme parks. I'm not. However, I grew up near WDW and probably went to EPCOT 87 gazillion times between opening in 1982 and 2000. I still go, but now I live far away. Anyway, when the park opened, a LOT of people didn't like it. That view of EPCOT persisted for several decades. I think the suits decided to add some Disney style thrill rides (M:S, TT, Soarin') and a few things for the younger set (Entirety of the Seas overlay, infusion of characters throughout the park). They also added an officially sanctioned massive party (Food and Wine) which had the impact of creating a whole subculture (drinking around the World). Now, the big question is this - Is EPCOT more appealing to the general public? I think it is, but not a whole lot. It is a LOT LESS appealing to the original fan base though. They really underestimated the popularity of the two big subtractions (Horizons, WoM) and miscalculated the impact of the bastardization of Imagination. Here is where I think they really missed the boat. A lot of the high school kids who LOVED the 80's/90's EPCOT have grown up to be computer geeks, scientists, accountants, engineers, M.D.'s, mathematicians, etc. We've got cash and if they hadn't diluted the park so much it would be spent. Now, what would've happened if they had added without subtracting? We'll never know.
Skibum1970
Well-Known Member
We just returned from a trip to WDW (driven by cold temp's and snow). We went through the parks and began noticing that something was missing. My lovely missus (who likes WDW but isn't a nut about it) made the comment that it seemed as if the magic was missing. She thought that NFE area looked nice but that something was off. I don't know if it is the staleness or that the new stuff (ie Tangled bathrooms, NFE) is just a little underwhelming. Our favorite part was staying at the Wilderness Lodge.
Funmeister
Well-Known Member
It has become a "dinner and a show" (Illuminations) park. The attractions have taken the backseat. Universe of Energy does not generate any money. Spice Road and Taco Bell Deluxe make money. I hate that they are taking viewing areas away to build more restaurants in order to now "sell" viewing spaces.
What next? Lagoon-side hibachi grill? It will be a shame when they tear out the Itsukushima Shrine for more seating. (Nothing to support this rumor) Actually countries are prime for lagoon-side dining except American Adventure, France and UK. Canada would be my next guess.