The Spirited Sixth Sense ...

Funmeister

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but by staying did Disney make enough off them for that extra time (past 3am) to offset the higher costs?
Did they buy 1 day tickets or were they APs, CMs, etc. In short: Did Disney actually gain anything from them staying vs going home at 3am?

It's a novel concept that you can use and write off the cost... but once it loses it's novelty (by running it all the time) the crowds (and revenue) also fall off.

They kill the golden goose.

No I would say not. They said they got to the point where they were literally just sitting around. They said it was busier than expected but in the wee hours waits were minimal if non-existent.

After they left they went to IHOP in LBV for breakfast. Whoops!
 

CDavid

Well-Known Member
I do not ever remember hearing of anyone being prohibited from bringing their own food. I have done so many times over the years. In my case not so much for the price but for the poor quality of QSR. Disney security will only confiscate alcohol and glass containers for safety they tell me. So paper, plastic, aluminum is allowed. I also take soda in cans as I dislike fountain drinks, plastic bottles for soda, and most coke products. They will stop you from dragging a giant cooler through the parks as it is a tripping hazard so I take some small cooler bags for snacks. If I want a bit of adequately prepared hot food I will find some at one of the Epcot joints. Yes at ridiculous prices for the meal but at least better than QSR. I see people often with obvious carried in food sitting in the QSR restaurants like Cosmic and whatever the current name for the "Noodle Kitchen" is these days.

Indeed, people have long sneaked in outside food, and more recently they don't have to be so covert about it. Again, that is what I am surprised about - that Disney would not try to clamp down in order to sell more overpriced fast-food. If they are so worried over losing pennies to drink refills that they install a needlessly complex, certainly costly solution, you would think they would want avoid losing maybe forty dollars at Liberty Inn to ham & cheese sandwiches in a bag. Not that I'm complaining - of course - I'm just surprised.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
No I would say not. They said they got to the point where they were literally just sitting around. They said it was busier than expected but in the wee hours waits were minimal if non-existent.

After they left they went to IHOP in LBV for breakfast. Whoops!

imagine if they shifted some of their locations to a 'Dennys' like menu for late night dining, etc.

Food has always been my big complaint about late night EMH - I imagine the problem just multiplying for these overnight events.

if you got real crazy... imagine converting some space into 'sleep centers' where you could pay to dose off for a bit. Imagine how many disney nerds would pay to sleep in the kingdom...
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
So @ParentsOf4 If it is a bad trend for Disney, wouldn't they be adjusting their room rates? Or instead of running commericials offering discounts for a 6 week - 8 week period, they would run them again for 4-5 months? From a business perspective their strategy seems to be working. Whether or not it can objectively be seen as a good deal.

I've never been able to quite pinpoint your exact concern. Are you unhappy that they can get away with their strategy? Or do you think it is a bad business move and that they would get more net profit if they lowered the pricepoint and therefore have a bad strategy from a business perspective?
Our concern should be this:

MHI.jpg


A few die-hard fans aside, WDW most definitely is not a 1%’er vacation.

It’s a vacation targeted at the North American upper-middle-to-working classes.

Everyone loves to discuss WDW’s International guests but 80% of WDW’s business still comes from the U.S.A. with the next largest chunk coming from Canada.

Focus on the middle 80% of the income of that market and those people’s pay have not kept pace with WDW prices.

What does this mean?

The history of many businesses that have gone sour is that they start to raise prices, start to cut back on quality, start to stagnate in order to keep revenue flowing in.

It’s a strategy that can work well for the short-term to produce obscene profits but it’s not a sustainable long-term business model.

As it becomes increasingly difficult for their core customer base to keep up with those prices or as those customers simply become turned off by the perceived decline in the brand, those consumers begin to shop elsewhere. (Hello Universal.)

As that happens, those companies accelerate the policies that got them into trouble in the first place. Cut quality even more, reduce investments even more, raise prices even more.

Sound familiar?

It becomes a vicious cycle that eventually leads to collapse, all because corporate leadership lacked the vision to examine their own roots and analyze what made them successful in the first place.

Some really famous companies reported really impressive results for years right before they started to decline, right before the house of cards collapsed.

Detroit’s problems did not happen all at once. Their problems were years in the making, caused by an entrenched management who refused to evolve before the situation spun out of control, collecting massive stock options and bonuses right up to the very end. Detroit was reporting some really good financials right before it started to go sour.

If it continues down its current path, WDW might very well be heading towards a decline that is unrecoverable. Not today, not next year, but if left unchecked, within our lifetimes.

WDW simply cannot keep increasing prices the way it has without providing its customers with some added value. WDW cannot keep pricing itself out of its own core market segment.

Today’s WDW is living off its past reputation and brand marketing.

At one time, GM was considered the maker of some of the best mass-produced cars in the world.

I’ve been visiting WDW for over 30 years. I plan one day to take my grandchildren to WDW.

I want to be able to do so with my head held high. I want them to be blown away with the WDW experience the way that I was for over 25 years.

That’s not just my concern.

That should be all of our concerns.
 
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Rasvar

Well-Known Member
No I would say not. They said they got to the point where they were literally just sitting around. They said it was busier than expected but in the wee hours waits were minimal if non-existent.

After they left they went to IHOP in LBV for breakfast. Whoops!
The park was insanely busy after 10:00PM. I actually left at 11 with some friends to the Poly to have some drinks and something to eat until 1:00am. The beach at Poly was a nice place to relax (and get a quick nap) from the crowd.
 

Rasvar

Well-Known Member
imagine if they shifted some of their locations to a 'Dennys' like menu for late night dining, etc.

Food has always been my big complaint about late night EMH - I imagine the problem just multiplying for these overnight events.

if you got real crazy... imagine converting some space into 'sleep centers' where you could pay to dose off for a bit. Imagine how many disney nerds would pay to sleep in the kingdom...

Heck, I would sleep in the Magic Kingdom all the time. It was called The Hall of Presidents.
 

alissafalco

Well-Known Member
imagine if they shifted some of their locations to a 'Dennys' like menu for late night dining, etc.

Food has always been my big complaint about late night EMH - I imagine the problem just multiplying for these overnight events.

if you got real crazy... imagine converting some space into 'sleep centers' where you could pay to dose off for a bit. Imagine how many disney nerds would pay to sleep in the kingdom...
oh please, don't give them any ideas...(I'm talking about the bed thing)
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
What I don't understand, is how a brand can have a 5 star product like the Cruise Line, DisneyLand, Tokyo Disney Sea, Tokyo Disneyland, Shanghai ... and look at the state of the union at WDW and think it's acceptable by comparison.
Not my theory--LazyBoy maybe?--but best explanation I've heard is that cruising, or traveling overseas, is an "acceptable" vacation to the corporate higher-ups. But Orlando theme parks? Those are for the rubes.
Yes, that was my theory. And it is not specifically the Orlando parks that are looked down upon, but theme parks in general. What makes Walt Disney World unique among the other theme park resorts is the lack of external actors able to influence decision making.

Al Lutz used to remark quite a bit about how the designer of the Harbor Blvd entrance to the Disneyland Resort loved to brag about how she had never stepped foot in any theme park. Much of Disney's California Adventure was influenced by this sentiment and the sort of "Yes, it is all fake" attitude. But the deaths at Disneyland and the fears that Disney had given up on the Disneyland Resort in the mid-2000s meant that both the state and city pressured Disney to change. There is also the more visible fan base and a media that does report a bit more aggressively on such issues.

As most know, Tokyo Disney Resort is wholly owned and operated by the Oriental Land Company. As part of the licensing contracts only Walt Disney Imagineering can be hired for design work and the parks must be operated to late-1970s Disney standards, which themselves were immediately surpassed due to Japanese culture. The Walt Disney Company only earns a few fees so large, expensive attractions are a great way for the Company to generate revenue from the Resort. For years Disney would pressure the Oriental Land Company to do more and bigger which would result in Walt Disney Imagineering charging handsomely for research and development on top of design. You'll notice that the last few years have seen clones go to Tokyo because the con game of the Japanese paying for new ideas and concepts has grown tiresome for the Resort's owners.

Euro Disney SCA is controlled by The Walt Disney Company but still a distinct entity. Like with the Oriental Land Company and Tokyo Disney Resort, they too must hire Walt Disney Imagineering. The Walt Disney Company is also now Euro Disney SCA's sole lender. New attractions have to be financed so not only is the Company earning from the licensing agreement that was better structured than the Tokyo deal, but also from payments to Walt Disney Imagineering and interest on the massive loans.

Hong Kong Disneyland and Shanghai Disneyland are both majority owned by the local government. The small opening day size of Hong Kong Disneyland followed by the park's underperformance greatly angered the Government of Hong Kong who demanded the problem be solved. The add a little bit strategy (Autopia and "it's a small world") that was also tried at Disney's California Adventure also failed in Hong Kong. The result was the Government wanting a bigger, more aggressive expansion (the three new lands) all paid completely by Disney. Given how Chinese politics works, it can rather safely be assumed that officials in Shanghai have watched what happened in Hong Kong and will not allow it to happen to them
 

HenryMystic

Well-Known Member
A Spirited Quickee:

A kind source has told me that we should plan on these 24-hour 'events' to kick off Memorial Day Weekend/Summer annually now.

The only difference may be substance (not that I find much with this event, but I do recognize that many adults will immediately book an airline ticket and hotel for the opportunity to 'meet' a teen wearing a foamhead costume! ... And Disney does do, hence all the free press they get for these 'events'.) as they meld with either the current Parks Promotion or even the summer's movie releases etc ...

But these 24-hour days to start summer are here to stay. While they could 'possibly' be held at non-castle parks that isn't something that has been given a whole lot of thought yet.
As long as it remains an annual event and not more frequent, I don't see a problem with it. Just the opposite in fact. A nice little perk (or whatever) and it benefits Disney also. It's a win/win.
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
Yes, that was my theory. And it is not specifically the Orlando parks that are looked down upon, but theme parks in general. What makes Walt Disney World unique among the other theme park resorts is the lack of external actors able to influence decision making.

Al Lutz used to remark quite a bit about how the designer of the Harbor Blvd entrance to the Disneyland Resort loved to brag about how she had never stepped foot in any theme park. Much of Disney's California Adventure was influenced by this sentiment and the sort of "Yes, it is all fake" attitude. But the deaths at Disneyland and the fears that Disney had given up on the Disneyland Resort in the mid-2000s meant that both the state and city pressured Disney to change. There is also the more visible fan base and a media that does report a bit more aggressively on such issues.

As most know, Tokyo Disney Resort is wholly owned and operated by the Oriental Land Company. As part of the licensing contracts only Walt Disney Imagineering can be hired for design work and the parks must be operated to late-1970s Disney standards, which themselves were immediately surpassed due to Japanese culture. The Walt Disney Company only earns a few fees so large, expensive attractions are a great way for the Company to generate revenue from the Resort. For years Disney would pressure the Oriental Land Company to do more and bigger which would result in Walt Disney Imagineering charging handsomely for research and development on top of design. You'll notice that the last few years have seen clones go to Tokyo because the con game of the Japanese paying for new ideas and concepts has grown tiresome for the Resort's owners.

Euro Disney SCA is controlled by The Walt Disney Company but still a distinct entity. Like with the Oriental Land Company and Tokyo Disney Resort, they too must hire Walt Disney Imagineering. The Walt Disney Company is also now Euro Disney SCA's sole lender. New attractions have to be financed so not only is the Company earning from the licensing agreement that was better structured than the Tokyo deal, but also from payments to Walt Disney Imagineering and interest on the massive loans.

Hong Kong Disneyland and Shanghai Disneyland are both majority owned by the local government. The small opening day size of Hong Kong Disneyland followed by the park's underperformance greatly angered the Government of Hong Kong who demanded the problem be solved. The add a little bit strategy (Autopia and "it's a small world") that was also tried at Disney's California Adventure also failed in Hong Kong. The result was the Government wanting a bigger, more aggressive expansion (the three new lands) all paid completely by Disney. Given how Chinese politics works, it can rather safely be assumed that officials in Shanghai have watched what happened in Hong Kong and will not allow it to happen to them
I have a strong feeling Shanghai we'll see substantive additions every other year and perhaps they may announce a new attraction when SDL is opened.
 
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ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
A thought strikes me though.. (odd occurrence) wouldn't one have to also know how many new units have been made available and compare it with the number that are empty to really get the picture. Simply saying that onsite room occupancy has declined by 10% only show one part of the picture. What percentage has the number of units increased over that time. If it's less then 10% then the numbers are declining, if it's over 10% then not only have the kept the onsite occupancy as it was, but have increased it (in actual numbers of units occupied) by adding those units.

I don't know if I'm making my thought clear or not so let's do it in simple numbers. Let's say that you have 1000 room available for occupancy and in 2008 they were 89% filled or 890 rooms. If all things remained the same since then in 2013 there were only at 79% filled or 790 rooms. Net 100 room difference.

Since I don't know the amount of rooms added since 2008, I'm just speculating here. But, If they added 20% more rooms then 2008's 89% would amount to 890 rooms filled. If 2013 the number available would now be 1200 rooms available and 2013's 79% would now equal 948 rooms filled. That's actually an increase in numbers. I'm guessing that they have added that many rooms, I do not know, but, in order to tell the complete story, both factors have to be considered. It is a gain of 58 actual rooms sold over 2008. So it's a decline in percentage of available rooms but if factoring in the increased number of rooms available over that time period, it represents and actual increase in physical occupancy, increasing cash flow, etc. I'm sure it's not what Disney wants to see, but, as a thinking person I have to wonder why, if you only have 89% of the rooms you have available rented, what would be the need to put more in there other then anticipated growth in actual numbers, if not percentages.
You have to think of hotel rooms as production capacity.

You don't increase capacity in order to have even more spare capacity. You increase it because you intend to use it.

I don't double production capacity only to have half of that added capacity go unused. That's a poor use of company resources; highly wasteful.

No one can ever accuse WDW of not wanting to optimize production. To the contrary, they've become so obsessed with optimizing production that their leadership has lost site that their guests are not raw material; they are people.

WDW's room additions reflect what they thought they needed or, more to the point, what they thought they could sell.

AOA increased "production" capacity by 724K room nights per year yet "units sold" went up by only 362K, 50%.

For nearly any vacation hotel, 50% is pretty bad. Given that WDW hotels used to traditionally run at 90% occupancy, it's a disaster. Remember, during WDW's post-9/11 crisis when they were closing buildings and laying off Cast Members, occupancy was 76%.

As recently as 2008, Disney's occupancy was 89%.

In the 21st Century, WDW's occupancy rate has been propped up by DVC. WDW has tripled the number of DVC units since 2000.

As a timeshare, once sold, it becomes the member's problem to make sure that the room is filled.

I'm a DVC member. If I'm not using my DVC points then I better be sure that I am renting them to someone or giving them away to a family member. (Don't you wish you were my relative? ;))

However, even if I use my DVC points, that doesn't mean I'm going to show up at the theme parks. I'm like any consumer, I'm going to WDW's theme parks if I think it's worth it.

I really enjoy WDW's water parks. I'm there! :D

WDW's theme parks are another matter. I've been skipping those and heading elsewhere when I'm in Orlando, mostly Universal. I'm not the only DVC member doing that. Remember, we're timeshare owners; we have to go every year. That means we get bored with the same old same old faster than most.

My DVC points are being used but I'm not spending money at the theme parks. I'm paying less that $100/night most nights for a Deluxe Resort Studio, less than $300/night for a Deluxe Resort 2-bedroom villa which consists of 3 rooms. (For example, I paid $294/night for a Boardwalk View 2-bedroom villa at the Boardwalk Villas for Thanksgiving.) Compare that to what non-DVC members are paying and what they are getting for their money.

And I'm sure not spending money at WDW's overpriced restaurants (I've got a kitchen in my villa) or on their overpriced merchandise. It's not like the old days when the only place I could find something was at WDW. "One Disney" has sucked the fun out of shopping at WDW.

WDW is making money off me. But they are missing so many opportunities to make even more. They keep grabbing at my pennies and missing my dollars.

The point is, WDW's timeshares help boost the hotel occupancy rates but they don't necessarily translate into park dollars.

Since it's glory days when WDW hotels ran at 90% occupancy, WDW has mostly built timeshares and Value Resorts.

Both opened up new markets to WDW. Both should have improved WDW's occupancy rate even more. The added DVCs and the first 4 Value Resorts did exactly that.

Yet WDW's overall occupancy rate has declined. Imagine what's been happening at WDW's original hotel base, its Deluxe and Moderate Resorts, hotel categories that used to run at over 90%.

Trends at WDW's hotels are bad, really bad.
 
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Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Indeed, people have long sneaked in outside food, and more recently they don't have to be so covert about it. Again, that is what I am surprised about - that Disney would not try to clamp down in order to sell more overpriced fast-food. If they are so worried over losing pennies to drink refills that they install a needlessly complex, certainly costly solution, you would think they would want avoid losing maybe forty dollars at Liberty Inn to ham & cheese sandwiches in a bag. Not that I'm complaining - of course - I'm just surprised.
It's simple really. There is a massive difference between charging for a forced situation and a voluntary one. If Disney didn't allow people to bring in there own stuff they could easily break the back of the day visit, especially Florida residents. I remember one time sitting near a group of locals. It was obvious that they were not rolling in money but wanted to take the family to WDW. It was a large group and when someone asked to borrow some money to buy a drink (soda) it took a collective effort of at least 6 of the group to come up with enough money to buy one drink. If Disney had required that they buy food from them exclusively they would have lost the admission price from what I figured to be at least 10 or more people. Why, force that issue.

I think the lunch prices are outrageous and don't even get me started on the sit down locations. Yet, I still do the counter service (refuse to be robbed at pen point at the sit down locations) simply because I don't want the hassle of carrying stuff around with me for half a day or more. I pay it, I'm sure I have a pained expression on my face at the time, but, I know, as small as that seems that would definitely make me alter my experience if it were forced on me. I think it would most people. Even if, like myself, one has no intention of bringing in food, there is still that nagging thought that I would be being forced to pay a high price with no option other then going without. Not a smart option in a theme park.

They overlooked it for years, and now have set policy that it is OK, so they know what type of hardship that would put on a lot of people both physically and emotionally.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Yes, that was my theory. And it is not specifically the Orlando parks that are looked down upon, but theme parks in general. What makes Walt Disney World unique among the other theme park resorts is the lack of external actors able to influence decision making.

Brilliant assessment! I think you've summed it up, nicely.

From my very unscientific observations wandering through both Orlando and Anaheim properties in recent years, the Anaheim property attracts a much larger crowd of "trend setters" and "decision makers", in the Madison Avenue language. It's very stylish to go to a SoCal dinner party in a hipster neighborhood and find a beautifully framed 1960 Attraction Poster from Disneyland hung in the dining room or family room or rumpus rooms. Disneyland is seen as upscale hipster heaven west of the Rockies, and sophisticated people flaunt it here. I'm not talking about the crazy super-fans with rooms full of collectible crap (which exist for WDW too), just the average upper-middle class family showing their hip credentials at a dinner party.

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The crowds in Orlando seem to just consider "Disney" (in their words) a typical family vacation. Disney World kitsch has not been tapped by the same hipster market in big East Coast cities, nor is it considered nearly as valuable as Disneyland kitsch. It's just a very different world in Orlando with demographics and attitude. And that plays into many of the executive decisions on what to do, and what not to do, with the Orlando theme parks. That doesn't seem to help Orlando, either.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Not my theory--LazyBoy maybe?--but best explanation I've heard is that cruising, or traveling overseas, is an "acceptable" vacation to the corporate higher-ups. But Orlando theme parks? Those are for the rubes.
Can I like this 10 times?

Among a certain country club set, admitting that you've taken the family to WDW more than once is like admitting that you have no taste. Sort of like admitting that you swim at the local public pool.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I think room type is important. Disney has cannibalized a lot of mid level occupancy with the moderate resorts, IMO. It gets difficult to justify the price difference between the two. The seem to have to force sales for the moderate resorts more than others lately. Only reason I stayed at Coronado Springs the last time I went was the price was only a few dollars more than the value. Place was practically empty when i was there but the value are always packed.
Yep. That's the thing that makes looking at the numbers more difficult. They actually increased overall capacity of rooms in the last 5 years and at the same time the overall number of room nights went down. The new rooms added are 90% value resorts (even though some AoA rooms are priced more like a moderate). Did AoA just cannibalize the older value resorts or did it take away some guests who may have stayed at a moderate? I'm sure the plan was to get some additional off property guests to stay, but who knows if that really worked. Since Disney doesn't disclose individual hotel occupency rates we can really only speculate, but logically it makes sense that adding more value resorts would have negatively impacted the moderates and even some deluxes.
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
I like what @ParentsOf4 said, it's a question of sustainability. Sure the parks have been doing good numbers. Can it last though? Many people are paying higher ticket prices, but cutting costs everywhere else such as bringing their or own food and staying offsite.

People still want to.visit WDW and will, but they are Wal-Marting their vacation as much as Disney is Wal-Marting the parks.

We used to stay deluxe club level. Not anymore. We used to eat at TS spots, now we do QS. We used to spend hundreds in merch each trip, last trip we spent about $80.

I make more money now than I used to but more income did not make me more foolish. We just hit a breaking point in what we are willing to pay, and while the price has gone up, the service has gone way down. Our last stay at club level (may 2013), I asked the concierge at club level desk to check for a reservation at Ohana. (I know that's a slim chance). Before the CM made one single key stroke, she asked, "did you try making it online yet"? And she wasn't asking in the "are u having no luck on your own" sense. It was more, "you could do this on your own" attitude.

WDW reminds me of the movie Secret of My Success. Theyre the company that's trying to slash budgets across the board to increase profits and you've got little old Brantley (the die hard fan in our case) telling them to push forward and get back to being what you once were to become strong again! But old Uncle Prescott doesn't want to hear it. Where is our Brantley! We need him very badly!
 
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ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I like what @ParentsOf4 said, it's a question of sustainability. Sure the parks have been doing good numbers. Can it last though? Many people are paying higher ticket prices, but cutting costs everywhere else such as bringing their or own food and staying offsite.

People still want to.visit WDW and will, but they are Wal-Marting their vacation as much as Disney is Wal-Marting the parks.

We used to stay deluxe club level. Not anymore. We used to eat at TS spots, now we do QS. We used to spend hundreds in merch each trip, last trip we spent about $80.

I make more money now than I used to but more income did not make me more foolish. We just hit a breaking point in what we are willing to pay, and while the price has gone up, the service has gone way down. Our last stay at club level (may 2014), I asked the concierge at club level desk to check for a reservation at Ohana. (I know that's a slim chance). Before the CM made one single key stroke, she asked, "did you try making it online yet"? And she wasn't asking in the "are u having no luck on your own" sense. It was more, "you could do this on your own" attitude.

WDW reminds me of the movie Secret of My Success. Theyre the company that's trying to slash budgets across the board to increase profits and you've got little old Brantley (the die hard fan in our case) telling them to push forward and get back to being what you once were to become strong again! But old Uncle Prescott doesn't want to hear it. Where is our Brantley! We need him very badly!

Exactly

As quality has declined I spend less, We used to spend hundreds on merch on a 10 day trip, Last trip I think we spent about 80 bucks for 4 of us. There was simply nothing we wanted to buy. 'Disney Parks' merchandise is an immediate turnoff for me. I went to WDW or DL not 'Six Flags'
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
Exactly

As quality has declined I spend less, We used to spend hundreds on merch on a 10 day trip, Last trip I think we spent about 80 bucks for 4 of us. There was simply nothing we wanted to buy. 'Disney Parks' merchandise is an immediate turnoff for me. I went to WDW or DL not 'Six Flags'
I haven't purchased anything in a few years now. I don't understand how they've managed to screw up merch, but they have.
 

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