The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[DisUniversal]

Some good observations, but on this point...all that stuff (aside from the entertainment, which is a separate issue, one which I agree on) is still there though. So when folks talk about this "loss" I don't see it because all that stuff can still be had. They should be raging about the Entertainment loss, because that actually WAS direct cultural content. But it got very little attention

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/epcot-entertainment-cuts.889264/

 

[spacemt354]

When is the last time you saw a significant wait for Mission Space? Typically every time I've gone it's been in the 10, maybe 15 minute range...which was about the same for Horizons which like Spaceship Earth was a continuous load. Test Track seems to have a long wait in large part because it's a poorly designed, unreliable attraction with an inefficient load cycle. 3 across seating doesn't help either...at least not outside of the single riders line.

That's why I said "to an extent"...

Before Mission: SPACE developed its orange and green teams (which essentially split the attraction into two attractions) wait times were higher. Couple that with FP+ and the fact that some people don't ride because it had gotten a bad reputation, and the lines are shorter.

When I was there this past August the lines for Orange team were about 30-40 minutes. Green Team 10-20 minutes.

If you were going to ask the typical theme park guest which they would rather ride, Test Track or WoM, I would bet most would say Test Track. So regardless of its load cycle, it is the more "popular" attraction. That doesn't mean I agree with them (I don't) but perspectives like those are what drive Disney to make such attraction decisions. They think it's what the "typical" guest nowadays wants.

 

[TalkingHead]

The pavilions themselves. The aesthetic features of the buildings, the architecture, the cast members, the food, the entertainment (now lacking) all contribute to incorporating education into the featured entertainment.

Sure, some guests might treat World Showcase as a pub crawl. But others appreciate the detail and story behind each one of the nations. There are films to depict the history of the countries, restaurants with food native to the lands served by people from the nations. The American Adventure is still one of my favorite shows at any Disney theme park. One of the best examples of how you can be educated by entertainment.

When people go to World Showcase to eat, drink, or shop, there is still a cultural aspect to the location that allows for some type of learning to take place. Every time I travel through the nations I find out something new, by either reading certain stories myself or talking with cast members.

Was Maelstrom the most educational ride? No. Nor was it the most enjoyable for me. One of the underlying reasons we would ride it was that it was one of the only things to ride in WS. If there was an attraction at every pavilion it wouldn't have been a "must-do" each trip because there would be more to do. That doesn't mean it has to be overtaken by Frozen though.

And nostalgia is a tricky thing. Obviously World of Motion, and Horizons to an extent were replaced by attractions that are much more popular (in terms of wait times). In 10-15 years, it will be curious if Maelstrom is put on the same pedestal as extinct "nostalgic" Epcot attractions such as WoM, Horizons, 20K, etc

Personally I wouldn't put it on that high regard. I would grade it a bit lower than "nostalgic" but not so low that it isn't memorable.

It's funny to me how a lot of the Epcot fans like to say that Frozen is being served up in World Showcase because the dumbed-down, Walmarted crowds wouldn't appreciate coherent theming if it slapped them in the face.

Yet the "education" of Epcot was the most oversimplified, stereotypical, Walmarted kind of education you could ever hope to find. You know, the kind of history that avoids nuance, resorts to cultural stereotypes, etc.

 

[GoofGoof]

A delightful boat ride through the FROZEN landscape sounds fu......wait. Boat ride....frozen??? How's this gonna work again?

I still think there's a chance it's not a boat ride anymore.

 

[spacemt354]

I still think there's a chance it's not a boat ride anymore.

I agree. Even with Disney's elongated construction timelines, 18 months is a long time. 2016 is far away. And the infrastructure is already there.

I find it very hard to believe there isn't going to be some major overhaul inside the attraction, and I'm with you, I think there's a chance it won't be a boat ride.

 

[Smiddimizer]

I have no problem with certain Disney characters doing M&Gs in WS. Mulan, Snow White and Cinderella have direct ties to the folklore of their respective countries. Frozen was based on a story written by a Dane, based on a Russian folk tale. Only the Disney bastardization of the story has even a hint of Scandinavian culture. But none the less isn't Norwegian. Period.

Then again, Radiator Springs isn't in California, and Persian flying carpets and camels aren't indigenous to French Polynesia.

To be fair, and I'm just nitpicking because I'm bored, Adventureland already was sort of a mishmash of influences. British Africa...French Polynesia...Spanish Caribbean..treehouse..

 

[GoofGoof]

I agree. Even with Disney's elongated construction timelines, 18 months is a long time. 2016 is far away. And the infrastructure is already there.

I find it very hard to believe there isn't going to be some major overhaul inside the attraction, and I'm with you, I think there's a chance it won't be a boat ride.

I posted a question about it in the other Frozen thread, but it got buried in pages of people calling each other names. Since there is some more productive conversation going on here I'll try again.

I'm no expert, but I think a boat ride would have higher maintenance and operating costs than an omini-mover plus it would have much lower capacity. There is no reason the ride has to be a boat ride. It actually makes less sense for a Frozen ride. My question is would it be feasible to empty the water and rip out the boat track and replace it with a simple omni-mover track? You keep the show building itself but replace the track and ride vehicles (sleds maybe). I have no clue if that's possible or how much it would cost. They would need to redo the load and unload area and some of the show scenes. Assuming its possible and not overly expensive it would make a lot of sense to have an omnimover with a much higher capacity and a lower cost going forward. I think based on feedback from the other thread it would be possible to do in 18 months.

If they did this, maybe they could also expand the show building to the right (towards Mexico) and make the ride longer too.

 

[spacemt354]

I posted a question about it in the other Frozen thread, but it got buried in pages of people calling each other names. Since there is some more productive conversation going on here I'll try again.

I'm no expert, but I think a boat ride would have higher maintenance and operating costs than an omini-mover plus it would have much lower capacity. There is no reason the ride has to be a boat ride. It actually makes less sense for a Frozen ride. My question is would it be feasible to empty the water and rip out the boat track and replace it with a simple omni-mover track? You keep the show building itself but replace the track and ride vehicles (sleds maybe). I have no clue if that's possible or how much it would cost. They would need to redo the load and unload area and some of the show scenes. Assuming its possible and not overly expensive it would make a lot of sense to have an omnimover with a much higher capacity and a lower cost going forward. I think based on feedback from the other thread it would be possible to do in 18 months.

If they did this, maybe they could also expand the show building to the right (towards Mexico) and make the ride longer too.

I can definitely agree with this. I'm not an expert either but I can see how that would help capacity issues, and since in Frozen, rivers and streams are, well, frozen...it wouldn't make sense to be able to ride a boat through scenes in the film. An omnimover type sled would be better both thematically and capacity wise.

That being said, I remembered reading this a while back about a patent Disney had made for a boat-omnimover type system. It seemed like it was for Shanghai Disneyland. Not sure on the chance we see this in Norway...but I think it's further indication that it's possible to switch from boat to omnimover.

http://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/201302/3370/

 

[raymusiccity]

I agree. Even with Disney's elongated construction timelines, 18 months is a long time. 2016 is far away. And the infrastructure is already there.

I find it very hard to believe there isn't going to be some major overhaul inside the attraction, and I'm with you, I think there's a chance it won't be a boat ride.

Don't know much about the underlying mechanics of the ride itself. It might not be much of a stretch to convert it to an 'Omni-mover' type of load system. The 'track' is already there to guide the boats and move them through the different levels. They'll definitely need some upgrades to handle the increased demand.

 

[Goofyernmost]

If you were going to ask the typical theme park guest which they would rather ride, Test Track or WoM, I would bet most would say Test Track. So regardless of its load cycle, it is the more "popular" attraction. That doesn't mean I agree with them (I don't) but perspectives like those are what drive Disney to make such attraction decisions. They think it's what the "typical" guest nowadays wants.

And they probably have the stats to back that thought up. Ask today what they would prefer and you will get TT. Why? Because they have seen it and ridden it and prefer it to a slow moving Omni Ride. If you would have asked back in the hay day of EPCOT, the answer would have probably been WoM. Why? Because we all liked it, just like most still would if it had remained, but, it didn't/doesn't have the thrill power that TT does and would probably lose in a head to head competition for popularity.

WoM had another trick to keep the line moving so the numbers that rode threw may even be more then they currently have on TT. They had ride vehicles that were specially made for those needing wheelchair boarding. They didn't even stop the ride. If you needed to board with a wheel chair, you boarded at the unload station. The back panel of the vehicle could be pulled down to form a ramp and a CM would push you on it and the wheelchair wheels would drop into groves in the floor thus securing it for the duration of the ride. The reverse procedure happened when unloading. The ride just kept moving and never stopped. The problem was that people traded in regular wheelchairs for electric, adjustable, wide motorized wheelchairs and ECV's. That rendered the ride vehicle useless. They even had a seat built into that ride vehicle for a companion to ride as well. Great setup in it's time. But, like everything else, time changes both attitudes and technology. With the change in technology, things that could be done in a simple way, have passed out of possibility. On top of all that the wheelchair vehicles were spaced in a way that automatically insured that the number of people that might require assistance in the event of an emergency was manageable and therefore became safe. Safety went out the window with ADA regulations.

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

A delightful boat ride through the FROZEN landscape sounds fu......wait. Boat ride....frozen??? How's this gonna work again?

LOVE WILL MELT THE FROZEN WATER.

 

[Nubs70]

A delightful boat ride through the FROZEN landscape sounds fu......wait. Boat ride....frozen??? How's this gonna work again?

It is sea water if not just brackish, the higher the dissolved ion content, the lower the freezing point.

 

[tirian]

It's funny to me how a lot of the Epcot fans like to say that Frozen is being served up in World Showcase because the dumbed-down, Walmarted crowds wouldn't appreciate coherent theming if it slapped them in the face.

Yet the "education" of Epcot was the most oversimplified, stereotypical, Walmarted kind of education you could ever hope to find. You know, the kind of history that avoids nuance, resorts to cultural stereotypes, etc.

That's only partly true.

In FW, the rides themselves were at a general level of education (say, to a sixth-grade level) but were followed by post-shows that featured in-depth knowledge if someone were interested.

WS never pretended to be the actual countries represented; it was always an idealized celebration of each nation's heritage in hope that guests would want to visit the real thing. That requires a level of stereotyping, especially since today's world is more common (and maybe less interesting?) than ever before.

Ironically, the Norwegian government joined Epcot primarily because it could spur tourism—and it did.

 

[TalkingHead]

That's only partly true.

In FW, the rides themselves were at a general level of education (say, to a sixth-grade level) but were followed by post-shows that featured in-depth knowledge if someone were interested.

WS never pretended to be the actual countries represented; it was always an idealized celebration of each nation's heritage in hope that guests would want to visit the real thing. That requires a level of stereotyping, especially since today's world is more common (and maybe less interesting?) than ever before.

Ironically, the Norwegian government joined Epcot primarily because it could spur tourism—and it did.

FW had a general level of education? I suppose, although I suspect it was still comparable to the Cliffs Notes of a sixth-grade level. I won't quibble too much on that point. The rides were ambitious to varying degrees (and successful to varying degrees, too). I'm not sure if corporate-sponsored lessons on communication, energy, and transportation are necessarily the most balanced in terms of "educational" content, either. But, then again, corporations are our overlords today, so maybe Epcot really was ahead of its time in that regard.

As for WS, I was largely basing my comments on the American Adventure, which is a thoroughly Walmarted-version of American history, complete with fist-pumping patriotism at the end.

I absolutely agree with your point that with globalization, the cultural differences of the various nations have been minimized to an extent. The version of World Showcase in the Epcot of 1982 (and the version that the Epcot fans want to clutch) really does represent a romantic, outdated version when measured against the contemporary international landscape.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

To be fair, and I'm just nitpicking because I'm bored, Adventureland already was sort of a mishmash of influences. British Africa...French Polynesia...Spanish Caribbean..treehouse..

Yes, but where they dropped the Carpets is or was 100% French Polynesia. Just like Caribbean Plaza. It's, well, Caribbean.

Here is the deal. I loathe Maelstrom. I really enjoyed Frozen. This decision makes me want to .

 

[lazyboy97o]

Oh FFS.... its a **** theme park.

If Epcot was curing cancer, I might care more about this. Instead its a 2nd rate dark ride that is in dire need of repair as it is. Its short, has no story and a grand total of four scenes.

Righteous indignation aside, I'm done caring. People are selfish. They only want the parks in their own image.

And fwiw World Showcase Players, one of the original shows at Epcot, closes on Thursday 9/25.

And because you do not care we are not supposed to care?

 

[Disneyhead'71]

I care, but I don't care. I think it is because of a rather lengthy list of decisions like this that I don't really care. Then again, I don't go any more either. So there we are.

 

[cheezbat]

I still think there's a chance it's not a boat ride anymore.

I'm a big boat ride fan. If we lose a boat ride for yet another omnimover, can we please get another boat ride elsewhere in Epcot?

Seriously...Epcot already has Spaceship Earth and Nemo. We don't need another omnimover in the park. (That'd be what, 6 omnimovers at the WDW resort?)
You want another omnimover? Build one at DHS....or DAK. Those parks need those kinds of rides.

 

[Gabe1]

Oh FFS.... its a **** theme park.

If Epcot was curing cancer, I might care more about this. Instead its a 2nd rate dark ride that is in dire need of repair as it is. Its short, has no story and a grand total of four scenes.

Righteous indignation aside, I'm done caring. People are selfish. They only want the parks in their own image.

And fwiw World Showcase Players, one of the original shows at Epcot, closes on Thursday 9/25.

Color me curious...there has to be more of a back story here with you and these particular entertainers that has you so bent out of shape? They were not as you put it curing cancer, they are/were entertainers in a theme park. Other entertainers have come and gone and you have never lost it like this. You are not the type of person that generally goes down this road with Disney decisions, actually you are normally the one that blasts others for doing the same wig out. Over the last few weeks you just keep re-directing the thread back to these players. I have not been here since Friday and it is now Monday and you're at the same point you were on Friday. Connect the dots 'cause there is pieces of this puzzle that are missing.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Color me curious...there has to be more of a back story here with you and these particular entertainers that has you so bent out of shape? They were not as you put it curing cancer, they are/were entertainers in a theme park. Other entertainers have come and gone and you have never lost it like this. You are not the type of person that generally goes down this road with Disney decisions, actually you are normally the one that blasts others for doing the same wig out. Over the last few weeks you just keep re-directing the thread back to these players. I have not been here since Friday and it is now Monday and you're at the same point you were on Friday. Connect the dots 'cause there is pieces of this puzzle that are missing.

I just like the improv comedy. Its the one thing that can watch at Epcot that will always make me laugh.

Beyond that, it would take a lot of beer to explain the thought processes. Mostly the abhorant hypocrisy of the epcot fanboiz that are bemoaning this change but are perfectly fine with cutting original entertainment that have been here since Day 1. (WSP & Fife/Drum)

What irritates me is that it seems like everyone is cranky because the changes Disney is proposing doesnt fit their vision of what this theme park should be. People rally around the cries of original Future World attractions like Horizons, WOM, Imag part 1, and scream ad nauseum about cutting original things but when it comes to Entertainment, they have no problem with it. There appears to be a giant double standard with that part of the fanbase and it just irritates the hell out of me.