The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[PhotoDave219]

That's why I am actually surprised he replied to folks. Actually, this is a day full of "I hate to say it but I'd be lying if I didn't..." - because I actually am kind of impressed he is replying at all, even if folks don't like what he is saying - and considering the numbers that Frozen is doing all over the map - from the demand for merchandise, record home video sales, increase in attendance at DHS due to some characters on a stick - what he has said is really true - there certainly is a lot of demand. I mean, even the TV special - when was the last time we had a prime time network Disney TV special, period, let alone one for a film that has been on home video for six months already).

Pretty sure it was his PR people.

 

[AEfx]

It remains, a knee-jerk reaction to a franchise that doesn't make sense in Epcot (I won't even call it center). Anyone who cares about traditional theme park values should give a ****. Not to mention....a major new area/attraction in 2018 demonstrates that they're not afraid of it losing significance, so there's really no excuse. They're just being cheap.

They are being cheap, I agree - that's the Disney way these days - but on the other hand, if this were a few years ago that thrown-together stuff at DHS would be it. We've been begging for more C/D ticket dark rides based on animated films forever - and now we are getting one, and it's replacing what has been (up until today, apparently) a minor attraction that most discussion regarding has revolved around jokes on getting past the rickety film at the end and folks keeping tabs on if Disney leaves the exit door open or if you have to push it open yourself to get out.

I get that a lot of the ire is due to location, but I guess it helps that I never bought into the ethereal experience of World Showcase - it's always really been a glorified shopping mall to me. It has exquisite facades, and a few little nooks and crannies of interest, but really - Maelstrom has an esoteric at best connection to Norway, and it's not like they are demolishing the pavilion to build an ice castle - it really doesn't change the landscape of what is already there, and if anything more folks will get over there to see the nooks and crannies that are of import.

Basically, WS hasn't been touched since the 1980's aside from an updated film or two and the Restaurant-Merry-Go-Round game, and I'm realizing that a lot of folks were really clinging to that as a good thing - when, in reality, we are trading one lightly-associated with Norway ride for another lightly-associated Norway ride, and the rest of the place will be as stagnant as ever to please the shop/drink/eat audience that it attracts presently.

This is hardly the worst thing that could have happened, and I think the combination of Frozen backlash/overly romanticized nostalgia is making folks miss the very obvious positives this has, for quite a lot of guests.

And with that, I've ended my evening of saying things I would rather spit on my floor than have to say - Disney is as much as ever in the toilet when it comes to attractions/construction/development as it ever was, but while this isn't anywhere near a "perfect 10" it's certainly not a sub-zero failure/travesty, either.

 

[AEfx]

Pretty sure it was his PR people.

Thank you for saying that - I think I got a whiff of the pixie there for a moment - better now. I was almost afraid I was going to wake up tomorrow morning and start a podcast/blog about the "New WS experience" so I could get invited to the inevitable Lifestyler preview opening.

 

[Gabe1]

My only issue is that they're changing to frozen. Lord knows if it will still have any popularity coming to 2016.

But where was this righteous indignation when we announce the end of the world showcase players?

We had that discussion. I was part of it and there were different levels of righteous indignation to none. If memory serves me correctly you were leading the charge in support of the players cut loose with little warning.

Yes the players are a blow to their fans, their long term employment and I will miss them. If I separate my emotions from how I believe this will play out, new entertainment players will be brought online in due time. While not the same (and it won't help the unemployed if they can't find work) the new players will not change how the WS was imagineered. Changing a Pavilion that focused on culture and history to a Princess Land (credit @MOXOMUMD ) underminds the culture theme of the WS. Norway could likely become a mini Fantasyland in the World Showcase. Swapping out entertainment players is a sore spot with many of us but likely will not change the theme of the WS.

 

[PhotoDave219]

We had that discussion. I was part of it and there were different levels of righteous indignation to none. If memory serves me correctly you were leading the charge in support of the players cut loose with little warning.

Yes the players are a blow to their fans, their long term employment and I will miss them. If I separate my emotions from how I believe this will play out, new entertainment players will be brought online in due time. While not the same (and it won't help the unemployed if they can't find work) the new players will not change how the WS was imagineered. Changing a Pavilion that focused on culture and history to a Princess Land (credit @MOXOMUMD ) underminds the culture theme of the WS. Norway could likely become a mini Fantasyland in the World Showcase. Swapping out entertainment players is a sore spot with many of us but likely will not change the theme of the WS.

Yes, I was.


Now where are all the "Epcot is ruuuuiiiiinnnneeeeddddd" people when it comes to entertainment? Or is that strictly only rides? Because WSP & fife and drum were original shows....

 

[lazyboy97o]

Now where are all the "Epcot is ruuuuiiiiinnnneeeeddddd" people when it comes to entertainment? Or is that strictly only rides? Because WSP & fife and drum were original shows....

Again, what does being original to opening have to do with anything? And as @wm49rs already said, there has been plenty of displeasure voiced in regards to the World Showcase entertainment cuts.

 

[BrerJon]

Visually beautiful but the 2 rides featured in the bottom pic are basically Flik's Flyers and Francis' Lady Bug Boogie from DCA, correct? Still, leaps and bounds a better themed area than Bug's Land.

Yup, but there's also a Jellyfish ride, a restaurant, and a Festival of the Lion King quality theatrical show in there.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Friendly reminder: The Magic Kingdom hasn't opened a new E-Ticket in 22 years!

 

[PhotoDave219]

Friendly reminder: The Magic Kingdom hasn't opened a new E-Ticket in 22 years!

Friendly reminder: the most heavily attended theme park on the planet doesn't need to.

 

[CDavid]

Theme parks are fun to visit. I've been to WDW dozens of times, worked there as a CM for a short time, etc. Admittedly, I haven't set foot in the parks since 2011. So I've spent my fair share of time in the parks over the years. This isn't directed at anyone in particular.

That said, I just don't get the outcry of the fan community. I wouldn't shed a tear if any attraction in any park was closed. You could replace Spaceship Earth with a hot dog stand, and I wouldn't protest it.

A letter-writing campaign to protest the closure of Maelstrom? My honest response to that wouldn't get past the filter here. I think of the news this week -- a presidential speech on yet more U.S. military involvement in the Middle East, the anniversary of 9/11, etc. -- and I just shake my head at the theme park fan community.

This fan community is an honest-to-God dissertation and publishable manuscript for some aspiring psychology graduate student somewhere.

All of the objections to Frozen/Maelstrom -- Frozen "breaks the theme" of World Showcase, Maelstrom is a "great ride" that we're losing, etc. -- it's just so over-the-top and petty. I can understand if you're in the design industry that you might have a strong opinion about this change. It's no different than anyone else having an opinion about their professional industry.

Most of the of the people in the fan community, however, aren't part of that industry. In the words of Oingo Boingo, they're "on the outside looking in." I can't imagine caring so much about the purity of Epcot's theme or the integrity of World Showcase that I would contact WDW to register my complaint that Maelstrom is going away. Anyone typing "the purity of Epcot's theme" should be harshly fined. (I'll include myself in that.)

I think this is the first time I've posted anything on Frozen/Maelstrom, but seeing all the breathless complaining today just makes me think.

Earlier this week, Spirit was talking about the final stages of a relative's illness. I saw someone today write that they wish Disney had given them more advance notice so that they could visit and "say goodbye to Maelstrom." Someday, you would hope, the fan community would realize all of these rides (and indeed, the parks, too!) will all eventually be shuttered... The people are what matter. And isn't that supposed to be the "theme" of Epcot?

I understand the gist of your major points, and I cannot argue against them with anywhere near the eloquence with which you make your case. In the larger scheme of things, at the end absolutely nothing matters aside from the people and loved ones in our lives, and where we and they will spend eternity after death. All of our wordly possessions and even life's accomplishments amount to little more than a hill of beans in comparison. That said, everyone needs a diversion - a hobby or something of specific personal interest which holds special meaning in our everyday, sometimes mundane lives.

Collecting stamps, golf, gardening, theme parks (travel), or a myriad of other activities aren't what ultimately matters, but they do serve to make our days far more pleasant, enjoyable, and often rewarding. Without question, people tend to be emotionally invested in a specific interest; Thus, we care about the Disney theme parks, it matters to us what happens to them, and we certainly have (often strongly, sincerely held) opinions on the matter. We don't need expert knowledge of design (or business, etc.) to make a valid (if laypersons) argument about theme parks. Indeed, after sometimes years of observing and following the industry, at least some degree of 'expert' knowledge can be demonstrated in posts by several members on these boards.

Disney may place remarkably little weight on the opinions, desires, and requests of its (long-time) customers, but in no way does that suggest we should not make our voices heard. We should never be so ambivalent or irresolute about anything in life; Actually, that is in large part what is wrong in this nation. If something bothers you, upsets you, or just isn't to your liking or satisfaction - then by all means say something. You don't just sit back and let things happen. There is nothing wrong with taking a stand, even if it is on a topic which, in the end, isn't what really matters in life. We must keep our priorities straight, to be certain, but we can enjoy the Disney theme parks (in a mentally healthy manner) as part of a richer, more fulfilled life.

Here's the problem. Those of us that are long time Disney visitors and fans have our eyes constantly on some non-definable "bar" that Disney no longer lives up too. So Stacy, in her over the top perkiness, to us, is a lying corporate mouthpiece that fails to tell the truth and does not mention the gloom and doom that we see.

To us, she should be dressed in black, with a constant frown. When showing off Mission: Space, for example, her lines should be "And here we have Mission: Space, a mediocre simulator ride that has killed a few people and replaced the forever loved "Horizon" Pavilion." A travesty really! Nothing will ever be as good as Horizon was.

Over here we have Expedition Everest. This highly touted ride is a total failure. Check closely and you will see a Yeti that hasn't moved since the last ice age and, in spite of it being a kinda fun ride, should be spat upon as nothing but fail, fail and more fail.

Oh, yea... let's not forget that other attraction that failed to live up to our wants and desired, the now famous for it's mediocrity, Seven Dwarfs Mine Train. It's too short, it doesn't give us enough AA's, nobody goes on it because the lines are too long. Etc., you get the drift of our disgust, I'm sure.

Many have the idea that truth in advertising means that you, as a company, hire spokesperson to tell the public all about your weak points and downplay the upside. Point out things that have little or no impact on how the general public enjoys what they experience, because, it doesn't live up to our 40 year old, real or imagined, standards and basically tell everyone that they shouldn't bother coming to the parks, because, it's nothing but junk. A Stacy sitting on the curb, wringing her hands in grief and sorrow. How can anyone be so upbeat anyway and still function in life.

Spoiler

Yes, the preceding was sarcasm, but sarcasm based on actual statements made by posters on this and other Boards.

Sarcasm and hyperbole aside, the "bar" by which we judge Disney in 2014 may well be difficult to define, but we can illustrate with sold, concrete evidence and examples a very real decline in Disney's own standards over the intervening years. It isn't just nostalgia or a longing for the past which clouds our judgement; The bar has literally been set lower than it once was.

It's interesting how we never really heard of Malestrom being "beloved" until the Frozen rumors began. People only seem to care because it's from "old" EPCOT, not because it's a quality attraction. Was easily one of the worst attractions in WDW, bested only by Stitch imo.

You seldom literally hear of Space Mountain being so 'beloved' either, but that is because Space Mountain isn't on the endangered species list. If a (reliable) rumor came to light about it being bulldozed, then you most certainly would, just as you do for Maelstrom or the Carousel of Progress.

There is also a valid point about what is replacing Maelstrom, and its thematic inappropriateness for World Showcase. You won't see the same concerns over removing Indy or LMA, partly due to the attractions themselves, but party due to what (presumably Star Wars) will take their place.

Considering the overuse of "it's a classic!!" I've seen today I'd say a good chunk of people are in it only for the nostalgia factor.

Whether we agree or not, arguing that something should be preserved purely for nostalgic reasons is a legitimate viewpoint. In the case of Maelstrom, however, there is far more to it than just nostalgia.

 

[BrerJon]

Anyone catch Staggs answering questions on that announcement? Someone showed concern that Norway would be lost in the pavilion and he basically said we thing this is what guests want..

I saw that, was expecting him to say 'Norway will very much be a part of the new attraction' or something, but no, just 'this is what guests want', basically confirming that Norway is dead as a dodo.

 

[Horizons1]

Friendly reminder: the most heavily attended theme park on the planet doesn't need to.

Hey look, someone from TDO is posting!

 

[PhotoDave219]

Hey look, someone from TDO is posting!

I've been here for 10 years. I think it's pretty well-established that I don't work for Disney. I also think it's been well-established that I could never work for Disney…

 

[Gabe1]

Yes, I was.


Now where are all the "Epcot is ruuuuiiiiinnnneeeeddddd" people when it comes to entertainment? Or is that strictly only rides? Because WSP & fife and drum were original shows....

We did that for you when that all came down. Most of us were not happy. I have empathy for your pain and that of others. We did have a wake and mourn their loss for Epcot, the fans and the players personally.

I don't believe the culture of the WS is changed by replacing entertainment with other entertainment will change the theming of the WS any more than if they replaced illuminations music for new music or changed up the fireworks.

Changing a mock church, or replacing cultural Vikings with princesses and turning Norway into a Princess Meet and Greet along with the restaurant, it is no longer about culture or Norway it is about a movie promotion. My wonder is behind the scene is what the real Norway is having to say about how Disney is representing their country with Princessland and Frozen. What the International Program native CMs from Norway think of their countries culture being depicted as Frozen. I do not find entertainment changes in any of the parks having the impact of the changing the imagineering of a themed area and wedging it into an area that is not themed for that. I find it a break in theming. I felt the same way when they found it fitting to change Countdown to Extinction to Dinosaurs. That too was a limited time grab and most children are unaware of that cartoon this decade.

And I do have empathy for your loss of these entertainers. They obviously meant a great deal to you, that is never easy to move on from. With any luck they will not be lost for good in the Orlando area, hopefully they will resurface in a different venue or in a competing park.

 

[TeriofTerror]

Today isn't the day Epcot died - that happened long ago, if one wants to look at it from that perspective.

... And now I have Don McLean's "American Pie" stuck in my head. Your earworm for the evening, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[cw1982]

... And now I have Don McLean's "American Pie" stuck in my head. Your earworm for the evening, ladies and gentlemen.

Nooo! I was just about to go to bed. Now I'll have a song stuck in my head! Thanks lol

 

[PhotoDave219]

We did that for you when that all came down. Most of us were not happy. I have empathy for your pain and that of others. We did have a wake and mourn their loss for Epcot, the fans and the players personally.

I don't believe the culture of the WS is changed by replacing entertainment with other entertainment will change the theming of the WS any more than if they replaced illuminations music for new music or changed up the fireworks.

Changing a mock church, or replacing cultural Vikings with princesses and turning Norway into a Princess Meet and Greet along with the restaurant, it is no longer about culture or Norway it is about a movie promotion. My wonder is behind the scene is what the real Norway is having to say about how Disney is representing their country with Princessland and Frozen. What the International Program native CMs from Norway think of their countries culture being depicted as Frozen. I do not find entertainment changes in any of the parks having the impact of the changing the imagineering of a themed area and wedging it into an area that is not themed for that. I find it a break in theming. I felt the same way when they found it fitting to change Countdown to Extinction to Dinosaurs. That too was a limited time grab and most children are unaware of that cartoon this decade.

And I do have empathy for your loss of these entertainers. They obviously meant a great deal to you, that is never easy to move on from. With any luck they will not be lost for good in the Orlando area, hopefully they will resurface in a different venue or in a competing park.

I see where you're coming from… But honestly, how many times did you read that attraction?

Personally, I went with a friend recently and we rode it more times in one day than I have in the past two years combined.

I get where you're coming from in that Epcot's original mission, circa 1982, was to be more of an education and entertainment venue. However the vast majority of Americans and guests as a whole have no interest in being educated. (And they reinforce this, daily. Generally by opening their mouth to reinforce their lack of education. )

They simply want to be entertained…

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

Today isn't the day Epcot died - that happened long ago, if one wants to look at it from that perspective.

Few people are claiming anything of the sort. It definitely died long ago, as spirit said when they began ravaging Future World during the mid 90's was when the death began in earnest. This unfortunate event is just another of many post-destruction insults to what little is left of its legacy. It's where the executives all take a big long on its grave while everyone cheers them on and pays them for it. It happens every now and then, and i'm sure this won't be the last we see of that sort of thing in the future either.

Even if you don't care about EPCOT or its ruination, fans of the movie should be insulted by this as well for it not getting the proper respect it deserves. As far as i'm concerned, this overlay is a complete fail all around. Look at 74's information regarding what has been pitched for Tokyo and see what could have been done to satisfy fans of the movie in regards to a new appropriately placed Fantasyland ride instead of a cheaply done overlay...

 

[PeterAlt]

Let me let you in on a misnomer here.

Orlando has no local control.

TDO is very misleading. Everything is Tom Skaggs. All the decisions start and end with him. George K & co are just driving the bus, so to speak.

So if you wanna yell, yell at the right people.

I did confirm that maelstrom had the worst guest satisfaction metric that they use.

How is it that TDA has local control?

 

[Mike S]

Friendly reminder: the most heavily attended theme park on the planet doesn't need to.

So when should Magic Kingdom finally get a new E Ticket, in your opinion?