The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[lazyboy97o]

Just curious- have you been to DCA 2.0? It's a pretty strong overall package. Much stronger the parks 3 and 4 in Florida.

He's referring more to the circumstance that led the BoD to approve it, not the quality of the final product itself.

I have been to Disney's California Adventure both before and after the extreme makeover. My critique was for both how the product came to be and the final experience. Buena Vista Street gets most of my ire because it falls apart with a moments thought and knowledge (I especially despise its opening with the insinuation that Walt was an intellectual property theif). Cars Land would have been open to far more possibilities had it remained Car Land.

 

[TP2000]

I actually think the extreme makeover of Disney's California Adventure is part of that creative rut. It is all amazing, but I am still convinced the size of the project was Disney overreacting to the city. Ed Grier, who is so often demonized for not doing phony photo-op visits, is one person I really wonder about. He's never discussed much but he did come from Japan where the upfront investment in the second gate paid off. I also think the two signature lands could have been far stronger experiences without their "necessary" franchises.

Hmm... Good points there. I'll have to stew over that for a bit.

And Ed Grier. The guy we all forgot. The Millard Fillmore of DLR Presidents. Thanks for reminding us the part he played circa 2006-09.

His LinkedIn now has him as the Dean of School of Business at Virginia Commonwealth University. I lived in Tidewater Virginia for a few years, and remember VCU more for its bar scene in Shockoe Bottom than its academics or prestige. But I'm sure it's a nice state school. Those Richmond summers though. Brutal!

Interestingly, Ed Grier had an extremely unusual stratospheric career rise at Disney in the 2000's. He went from General Manager to site President in under three years, with a brief pause at the Vice President level for just two years as Disney's man in Tokyo for the OLC agreement.

General Manager, Walt Disney World, 1997-2004
Vice President/Company Rep, Tokyo Disneyland Resort, 2004-2006
President, Disneyland Resort, 2006-2009

Then he left Disney and got into higher education 3,000 miles away. As a guy with only a Bachelors in accounting from Duquesne, class of '77. Very interesting, and very, very unique to rise so quickly out of the obscurity of Disney's huge lower-executive ranks.

 

[spacemt354]

Larger objects are also read as closer, so it should be the opposite if the size of the castle impacted the perception of the street's length.

That would be if the large object did not manipulate its architecture to create the illusion of greater depth. Greater depth contributes to a visual cue that the castle further away and thus seemingly taller than it actually is. If the castle window sizes and floor to ceiling heights were kept constant, then the object would appear closer and smaller. The same forced perspective was used in DL but its effect is more neutralized because the trees beyond and surrounding its castle are quite large. Since there is no forced perspective on the surrounding trees, the effect of it on the castle isn't as strong. WDW's lack of greenery and surrounding landscape makes the optical illusion of the castle more pronounced, at least in my perspective.

 

[DisUniversal]

Had an interesting conversation with a friend tonight, one who still frequents the DISBoards I abandoned years ago because it had become pixie dust central. Apparently even the owner over there has soured on WDW, taking them to task for the Villains Party debacle and the upcharge event at MNSSHP. That's huge. It feels like a sea change this year; they've found the breaking point where all but the fans they have on the payroll have said, "whoa, you've gone too far."

Found a quote from his FB on the Soirée: "Well, that was painful. MNSSHP awesome as always. If you're booked for the Villains Soirée - cancel."

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Forced perspective making Main Street, USA appear longer is another myth. Larger objects are also read as closer, so it should be the opposite if the size of the castle impacted the perception of the street's length.

Yes, but while larger objects are read as closer, objects made to appear larger are in turn read to be further away than they are. (Which then in turn works to negate the effect of their appearing larger because of being read as distant)

 

[lazyboy97o]

And Ed Grier. The guy we all forgot. The Millard Fillmore of DLR Presidents. Thanks for reminding us the part he played circa 2006-09.

I think a lot of that has to do with Lutz's power and influence. He never seemed to like the guy, mostly harping on not being overly visible, and then crediting Kalogridis and Nevins with the changes to Disney's California Adventure that started before them. That last part is not so unusual as it can be seen all the time with politicians.

That would be if the large object did not manipulate its architecture to create the illusion of greater depth. Greater depth contributes to a visual cue that the castle is taller and further away than it actually is. If the castle window sizes and floor to ceiling heights were kept constant, then the object would appear closer and smaller. The same forced perspective was used in DL but its effect is more neutralized because the trees beyond and surrounding its castle are quite large. Since there is no forced perspective on the surrounding trees, the effect of it on the castle isn't as strong. WDW's lack of greenery and surrounding landscape makes the optical illusion of the castle more pronounced, at least in my perspective.

The problem with your explanation is that the ground level is not out of proportion to the rest of the ground level. We know buildings go up so that perceived distance is read as vertical distance (height) and not horizontal distance.

 

[spacemt354]

The problem with your explanation is that the ground level is not out of proportion to the rest of the ground level. We know buildings go up so that perceived distance is read as vertical distance (height) and not horizontal distance.

But Cinderella's Castle is not on ground level. Its entrance is raised above Main Street so what is perceived to be on ground level, really isn't. And as said before by EmpressLilly, objects made to appear larger through forced perspective are in turn perceived to be further away.

And that's also where the tree element comes into play. Trees make an area feel more dense and enclosed. In the central hub of WDW Main Street, there are no trees. It's barren, which from a first person visual perspective on the ground compared to DL, makes it feel like the street goes much further than its West coast counterpart.

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

.

And that's also where the tree element comes into play. Trees make an area feel more dense and enclosed. In the central hub of WDW Main Street, there are no trees. It's barren, which from a first person visual perspective on the ground compared to DL, makes it feel like the street goes much further than its West coast counterpart.

This.

Plus, the idea is you're walking down the middle Main Street, USA. Most real streets have trees...flowers, bushes, if not benches, trash receptacles, telephone poles, ....with posters on them... While strolling past stores with pretty window displays on either side.

To eliminate the trees (and much needed shade, but that's another topic), hanging flower baskets, bushes, benches, they have essentially gutted the small town feeling and turned it instead into a strip mall. Think of it next time you're in your local mall and there are stores on either side of you (nevermind the fact that malls at least have planters and sometimes trees but ignore that, ok?) with pretty window displays and lovely smells tempting you to go in.

I think part of what makes MK MSUSA feel wider and bigger is the lack of greenery, coupled with the giant castle with it's endless expanse of concrete in front of it.

 

[spacemt354]

This.

Plus, the idea is you're walking down the middle Main Street, USA. Most real streets have trees...flowers, bushes, if not benches, trash receptacles, telephone poles, ....with posters on them... While strolling past stores with pretty window displays on either side.

To eliminate the trees (and much needed shade, but that's another topic), hanging flower baskets, bushes, benches, they have essentially gutted the small town feeling and turned it instead into a strip mall. Think of it next time you're in your local mall and there are stores on either side of you (nevermind the fact that malls at least have planters and sometimes trees but ignore that, ok?) with pretty window displays and lovely smells tempting you to go in.

I think part of what makes MK MSUSA feel wider and bigger is the lack of greenery, coupled with the giant castle with it's endless expanse of concrete in front of it.

What used to be....*sigh*

 

[Bolna]

I have been to Disney's California Adventure both before and after the extreme makeover. My critique was for both how the product came to be and the final experience. Buena Vista Street gets most of my ire because it falls apart with a moments thought and knowledge (I especially despise its opening with the insinuation that Walt was an intellectual property theif).

Would you mind explaing this?

Cars Land would have been open to far more possibilities had it remained Car Land.

I do agree - that's the problem with lands based on existing franchises, you do have a closed narrative that puts limits on what you can do. But it appears that this is the way forward with themed entertainment. As much as I love WWoHP because I am a big Harry Potter fan, I think with its success and the success of Cars Land we will mainly see attractions/lands based on existing IP in the future.

 

[marni1971]

Forced perspective making Main Street, USA appear longer is another myth. Larger objects are also read as closer, so it should be the opposite if the size of the castle impacted the perception of the street's length.

Not quite. The building design (WDW more than DL) makes the street look longer from TS to the hub, building anticipation. Looking from the hub to the train station the street looks shorter. Purposely designed to make those who are tired after a long day not feel like they had far to walk to the exit.

 

[Goofyernmost]

For all of those lamenting the loss of trees on MSUSA, make sure you transfer some of that upset on the Castle Projection Shows. That is the main reason why they disappeared. People couldn't see the projections through the trees. It also blocked some view of the Fireworks show and people complained (don't they always) even though the majority of that is way up in the air.

Maybe they need to look into retractable trees.

 

[PhotoDave219]

For all of those lamenting the loss of trees on MSUSA, make sure you transfer some of that upset on the Castle Projection Shows. That is the main reason why they disappeared. People couldn't see the projections through the trees. It also blocked some view of the Fireworks show and people complained (don't they always) even though the majority of that is way up in the air.

Maybe they need to look into retractable trees.

Nope. It was Wishes. Trees came down in late 03/early 04.

 

[PhotoDave219]

What used to be....*sigh*

Suddenly I'm like Vito Corleone and yelling "look at how they massacred my boy!"

 

[CDavid]

Maybe they need to look into retractable trees.

Or they could just politely suggest that those wanting to see the fireworks not stand behind trees.

 

[Mike S]

Or they could just politely suggest that those wanting to see the fireworks not stand behind trees.

No, the answer is clearly stadium style seating so people can view the fireworks over the trees. You thought the BAH was an eyesore? Just wait

 

[PhotoDave219]

Or they could just politely suggest that those wanting to see the fireworks not stand behind trees.

They tried that. They tried to get people to view the fireworks from elsewhere in the park. Didn't work; the best view was from MSUSA and everyone still crowds into one spot for them

 

[michmousefan]

Wouldn't Tesla be a fun sponsor for the speedway.

Tesla would be a fun sponsor for Universe of Energy... but I bet someone at GM would not be happy about that.

 

[lazyboy97o]

They tried that. They tried to get people to view the fireworks from elsewhere in the park. Didn't work; the best view was from MSUSA and everyone still crowds into one spot for them

Main Street, USA is the best place for viewing because that is how the fireworks shows were designed.

 

[marni1971]

Main Street, USA is the best place for viewing because that is how the fireworks shows were designed.

Funny that.

Despite official guidance saying excellent fireworks viewing locations are available in Tomorrowland.

But what do we know?