The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[TalkingHead]

The horrible capacity they're running right now is also a huge factor in wait times. It's two fold.

They were queuing people behind MIB at 8:00. Early entry for resort guests, but point stands.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

Please don't post twitter feeds, hot links to other websites, etc. I don't like it when I'm talked about elsewhere (although before you post online/twitter/podcast you should consider the consequences) so please don't do it here. It's OK to discuss things happening on other sites (but no hot links, please - and we do have an informal agreement with certain sites that we will not discuss each other after some past unpleasantness) but please keep personalities out of it. Thank you.

The mods have stated more than once in this thread (and their previous incarnations) that tweets aren't to be posted like that. Doesn't matter if you knew about Tom or not.

I have never seen that said anywhere or else I wouldn't have posted in that style. But it is fine with me, I won't screenshot or share that way anymore.

 

[Goofyernmost]

That is what I thought too until I read Rasulo's comments. Now I feel that it was put into place to simply create revenue. To trick guest into believing that it is a benefit to them when it is not.
I like FP+, it works well for my vacation style. But I can't help but feel like the goal was to have me spend less time riding and more time spending money.
I can't tell you how many times while waiting for our FP+ time slot, we ended up buying a drink or snack. Or wondering into a gift shop.

I don't think that it is true to imply that there are NO benefits for the Guests. They aren't huge, but, I did find FP+, short of eliminating FP altogether, was a major help to me and I didn't even stay onsite. However, I think that Rasulo was speaking to the shareholders (Wall Street) when he said what he said.

If you look at it as being something that reaches out and takes money out of your pocket as you walk by, then it will look negative. If you look at it as a upgrade to an antiquated infrastructure that becomes a major management tool, then in the long run it may very well benefit the Guest by providing more of what the demand is. The data that is accumulated is not instantaneous in its implementation. Time and numbers will create the system that can easily help control the numbers of CM's needed, the amount of food that needs to be there and the type of purchasable items are in demand. As a guest we don't see that in operation, but, it is grinding away in the background and in many ways is beneficial.

You are correct that you bought "snacks" while waiting for your FP Window, but except for the time when they honored FP at anytime you wanted to show up, that is the way it always worked. Would you have purchased those snacks if you either were not hungry or thirsty? That didn't force you to do it, it just continued, as before, to give you time to do it.

 

[seascape]

Sure you do.

I charge everything. Even my newspapers at 7-11. I don't care if you believe me or not. But look at your bills and see what 3 triple play packages cost and utility bills for 3 homes as a starter. Then add insurance for cars and homes. It's easy to spend a fortune. Credit cards are great if you know how to use them. I have the amtrack card for the 2 round trips a year, car and bedroom, and United Airlines card for my anniversary trip. Disney card for use at Disney. Discover for 5% off at six flags. I can go on....

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

I don't think that it is true to imply that there are NO benefits for the Guests. They aren't huge, but, I did find FP+, short of eliminating FP altogether, was a major help to me and I didn't even stay onsite. However, I think that Rasulo was speaking to the shareholders (Wall Street) when he said what he said.

If you look at it as being something that reaches out and takes money out of your pocket as you walk by, then it will look negative. If you look at it as a upgrade to an antiquated infrastructure that becomes a major management tool, then in the long run it may very well benefit the Guest by providing more of what the demand is. The data that is accumulated is not instantaneous in its implementation. Time and numbers will create the system that can easily help control the numbers of CM's needed, the amount of food that needs to be there and the type of purchasable items are in demand. As a guest we don't see that in operation, but, it is grinding away in the background and in many ways is beneficial.

You are correct that you bought "snacks" while waiting for your FP Window, but except for the time when they honored FP at anytime you wanted to show up, that is the way it always worked. Would you have purchased those snacks if you either were not hungry or thirsty? That didn't force you to do it, it just continued, as before, to give you time to do it.

I'm not saying that it has no benefits.
I actually like fp+, I am very much a sleeping in kind of person. So it helps that I can secure a fp for popular rides without rope drop. I also enjoy that I got to go bag-less for the first time on my vacation to WDW.
I'm absolutely sure that this will help with the things we don't always see. When we were there in May, we had a CM at the POR bus stop telling us when exactly a bus would be there, I have never seen that before. So, I can see the improvements.
The last part, I should have clarified. We used to waste time before our fp on walk on rides like Peoplemover, Pirates, Spaceship earth, etc but this time we found it hard to do that because those rides are no longer walk on attractions. I think my jaw dropped when I saw pirates had a 45 minute wait. They didn't force us to buy anything. We had so much more free time this trip, thanks to fp+, that we were wandering shops just to have something to do. Which is almost exactly what Rasulo was saying they wanted to happen.

 

[seascape]

I not saying that it has no benefits.
I actually like fp+, I am very much a sleeping in kind of person. So it helps that I can secure a fp for popular rides without rope drop. I also enjoy that I got to go bag-less for the first time on my vacation to WDW.
I'm absolutely sure that this will help with the things we don't see. When we were there in May, we had a CM at the POR bus stop telling us when exactly a bus would be there, I have never seen that before. So, I can see the improvements.
The last part, I should have clarified. We used to waste time before our fp on walk on rides like Peoplemover, Pirates, Spaceship earth, etc but this time we found it hard to do that because those rides are no longer walk on attractions. I think my jaw dropped when I saw pirates had a 45 minute wait. They didn't force us to buy anything. We had some much more free time this trip, thanks to fp+, that we were wondering shops just to have something to do. Which is almost exactly what Rasulo was saying they wanted to happen.

You are one of the most fair posters on this site. I know you see the benefits of next gen. Others only look at it and how it no longer gives them the advantage they had under the old system. Anyway besides being fair and enjoyable to the vast majority which is reason enough to have it I think it's profitable.

 

[fosse76]

Okay your so smart tell me what protection I lose? As far as I can tell every charge still has to be proven by Disney to be mine. I can still dispute the charge if part of its wrong. I have given up nothing. Now if you tell me I can't dispute a charge just because it's not a separate transaction that will prove you know nothing about the law.

I would like to point out that whenever you dispute something, either with Disney, Marriott, a credit card Company, etc. the burden is on you YOU to prove the dispute. Neither Disney nor the credit card company have to prove you made the charge, but rather you have to prove you didn't. Whether or not they actually make you jump through those hoops is another matter entirely.

 

[seascape]

I would like to point out that whenever you dispute something, either with Disney, Marriott, a credit card Company, etc. the burden is on you YOU to prove the dispute. Neither Disney nor the credit card company have to prove you made the charge, but rather you have to prove you didn't. Whether or not they actually make you jump through those hoops is another matter entirely.

Okay so you are saying people have no rights anyway and the reason I'm treated the way I am is because I charge as much as I do and that Chase makes a lot of money from me. Fine I have no problem with that. I love that Chase makes money from me. I love that Disney makes money from me. I love that Marriott makes money from me. Give me good service and I want you to make money.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

You are one of the most fair posters on this site. I know you see the benefits of next gen. Others only look at it and how it no longer gives them the advantage they had under the old system. Anyway besides being fair and enjoyable to the vast majority which is reason enough to have it I think it's profitable.

I can see both the good & bad in it. I definitely wasn't excited about next gen and even my first full experience with it this past May might be biased.
My experience with it has been spread out:
Sept 2012 was when we first used the rfid door locks at CSR.
Sept 2013 was when we first used our KTTW cards to pay at TS locations
and finally May 2014 was when we got to use refillable mugs, fp+, and magic bands.
We came down only a few days after the 4th fp was allowed. It was clear that many people didn't know about it because we were snagging 4 fp+ for all the headliners except TSMM. So I had/have no complaints about fp+, as of now.
I have seen countless reports of disappearing fp+, magic bands not working, or other issues with the system that disturb me. I'm lucky that I haven't had any problems.
Overall, as of right now, I'm still leaning towards keeping the old system and spending money on building rides.
Because the old system was less convenient but okay with me. Clearly we can't turn back now.
I could really care less about whether Disney makes money off the new system, if they don't start investing in attractions. Even if they weren't building new rides, at least fix the rides that have broken features.

 

[AEfx]

Just out of curiosity - who credited your account? The credit card company, or Marriot? When something similar happened to me, the hotel did the total charge back as a good will gesture. The credit card company did not force them to make any correction - they did it on their own.

Precisely.

What was done in that case was a courtesy, no matter who did it (hotel, credit card company, etc). It's not entirely uncommon. However, it was not anyone's right for that to happen, nor either companies legal responsibility to do so...

Sounds like you committed the fraud

...and that's why they are often referred to as "one-time courtesies" in the card industry. The folks that get something like that generally won't get it more than once, because it's a courtesy, and they are under no obligation to do so again (and are going to be far, far, FAR less inclined to be granted subsequent times).

3 years to the day to build.

Development of what we know began about '77 for two years.

EPCOT Center - 36 months

Diagon Alley / London / Gringotts / HE - 30 months.

Big Thundermountain - 22 months.

Splash Mountain - 22 months.

Transformers - 13 months.

Dwarf Coaster - 33 months.

And, even though it is ancient history at this point - how long did it take them to build the entirety of Disneyland?

 

[AEfx]

Overall, as of right now, I'm still leaning towards keeping the old system and spending money on building rides.
Because the old system was less convenient but okay with me. Clearly we can't turn back now.
I could really care less about whether Disney makes money off the new system, if they don't start investing in attractions. Even if they weren't building new rides, at least fix the rides that have broken features.

You, and most folks who are aware of all the facts. If you stopped the average park guest and asked them, "Would you rather have this new, more complex system that you now have to plan your entire day around, or would you rather have a new E-ticket Potter-level attraction in every park?" I am more than sure the vast majority would agree with you, even those that like the new system. It's a value proposition.

In any case, Disney has also changed the tide and while some guests may be more satisfied, a lot more are not going to be who don't have the same access as other folks once people start realizing what is going on. The old system was completely "fair", in terms of everyone who was a paid park guest got treated equally. The little cartoon characters explained it in 1-2-3 steps in every guide map for 15 years, until they started phasing it out last year. Any seven year-old could understand it, and if for some reason it escaped any especially slow guests, there are CM's at every FP kiosk and every FP entrance (which are right next to most regular entrances) that were more than happy to take the 30 seconds to explain it to you.

Everyone who came to the park that day had equal access; of course, the early birds had more flexibility and choice, but that's a given - just like folks who show up at 9AM opening get to see more rides than folks who show up at noon. But the system itself treated every paid guest the same. It was the definition of equal opportunity.

This new system does not do that. It has created a caste system. A very visible caste system with little blinged out multicolored bracelets. It has also made things several times more complex. It caters to folks who carry smartphones around. It gives supreme advantages to resort guests (if we forget the absurdity of scheduling a ride a few months in advance, LOL).

Now, I'm would not argue that it's "unfair" - it is what it is, Disney has changed the rules of the game, the benefits of staying on property have steadily diminished, can't blame them for trying to stop the slow bleed in occupancy due to overall stagnation because they refuse to invest in ways to attract folks (hence, the term "attraction"), but...in no galaxy known to intelligent life is it "more fair" than the old system, when everyone with a paid ticket could walk up and get a FP like any other person - be they a day-guest, or staying at the GF Presidential suite.

BTW - that reminds me of something oh a few hundred pages back - did we ever actually FIND anyone who paid full price for a high tier GF room? LOL.

 

[Lee]

And, even though it is ancient history at this point - how long did it take them to build the entirety of Disneyland?

One year and one day from start to opening.
Kinda impressive...

 

[fosse76]

Okay so you are saying people have no rights anyway and the reason I'm treated the way I am is because I charge as much as I do and that Chase makes a lot of money from me. Fine I have no problem with that. I love that Chase makes money from me. I love that Disney makes money from me. I love that Marriott makes money from me. Give me good service and I want you to make money.

That's NOT what I said. When you make a dispute, It is YOUR burden to prove the veracity of the claim. Why should these companies just take your word for it? You aren't losing any rights.

 

[lazyboy97o]

One year and one day from start to opening.
Kinda impressive...

It also probably wasn't quite ready and plenty of hiccups at opening, but over came them and continues to endure.

 

[The Mom]

I have had several cases of CC fraud - but I'm old. In a few there was no question that someone had stolen my credit card number because of the time, location, and nature of the charges.

In others I had to prove that I had not made the charges, or that I had been double charged when a merchant refused to correct the error when both the CC company and I contacted him about it. In the latter case, I could not prove that I hadn't purchased two of the same item on the same day with two transactions, so I had to pay the charge. In a couple of instances the CC company took care of it on the spot. In another, I had to fill out a lot of paperwork with an affidavit.

 

[71jason]

I know I may become the object of scorn and ridicule here...but I didn't like the Kungaloosh (either version) at all when I tried them at Trader Sam's. <ducks to hide from deluge of verbal stones about to be thrown>

I can tolerate the original (later rechristened the "Hoopla")--the second, frozen version is waaaayyyy too sweet. Especially if you leave out the 151 (never included in published recipes). But lately that's a trend among all WDW signature drinks--cf. Magical Star cocktail.

The Club's Cruzan-based signature drinks from the mid-00s were much better, IMO.

 

[Chemnitz]

That was a plan.

Minus the spinner.

We live in hope.

That is so depressing. Anything less than a fully immersive land with a "top-five attractions in the world" E-ticket and at least two other rides would be insulting to fans.

 

[The Mom]

Precisely.

What was done in that case was a courtesy, no matter who did it (hotel, credit card company, etc). It's not entirely uncommon. However, it was not anyone's right for that to happen, nor either companies legal responsibility to do so...



...and that's why they are often referred to as "one-time courtesies" in the card industry. The folks that get something like that generally won't get it more than once, because it's a courtesy, and they are under no obligation to do so again (and are going to be far, far, FAR less inclined to be granted subsequent times).

Their legal responsibility is to cover any fraudulent/unauthorized charges. As I mentioned above, sometimes the fraud is so obvious that they just go ahead and do it (and being a "good" long time customer doesn't hurt any) or the amount is so negligible that it isn't worth the cost to investigate - unless, as you said, it happens more than once - but most times it is up to the customer to provide the proof that he/she (or any other authorized user) did not make the charge.

 

[Lord_Vader]

Everyone who came to the park that day had equal access; of course, the early birds had more flexibility and choice, but that's a given - just like folks who show up at 9AM opening get to see more rides than folks who show up at noon. But the system itself treated every paid guest the same. It was the definition of equal opportunity.

This new system does not do that. It has created a caste system. A very visible caste system with little blinged out multicolored bracelets. It has also made things several times more complex. It caters to folks who carry smartphones around. It gives supreme advantages to resort guests (if we forget the absurdity of scheduling a ride a few months in advance, LOL).

The new system is complex? Actually IMO the app (and MDE website) has made for a much clearer step-by-step planning guide than ever before. FP+ is laid out very well as a whole and provides guests reminders via email for ADRs and FP+ dates which help guests that are new, it helps eliminate some of the confusion. Heck, just not having to run around a park collecting FP slips is a major step forward for us. As for the caste system, what is the problem with it? Guests who pay more for the privilege should get what they pay for, I personally feel that TDO does themselves a disservice by NOT pushing the Deluxe resorts by offering more FP+ to onsite guests as other area parks do.

Now, I'm would not argue that it's "unfair" - it is what it is, Disney has changed the rules of the game, the benefits of staying on property have steadily diminished, can't blame them for trying to stop the slow bleed in occupancy due to overall stagnation because they refuse to invest in ways to attract folks (hence, the term "attraction"), but...in no galaxy known to intelligent life is it "more fair" than the old system, when everyone with a paid ticket could walk up and get a FP like any other person - be they a day-guest, or staying at the GF Presidential suite.

Really? I am willing to bet the average guest would wonder what an E-Ticket is. Of course most guests would want more rides, you do, I do and so do most others that go to the parks regularly. The first time guest... They are all new rides to them so they most likely don't care which is why Disney is not heavily investing in new attractions right now, not to mention they already have a significant capacity problem in MK that is being addressed slowly.

BTW - that reminds me of something oh a few hundred pages back - did we ever actually FIND anyone who paid full price for a high tier GF room? LOL.

This is a common practice at all hotels, just look at the room rates posted on the back of room doors. The Hyatt in downtown NO charged $170 a night, heavily discounted for a conference I was at but the room retailed for $390. The purpose of the bait and switch is to make guests feel good that they got a good deal and is widely done throughout the US by all major chains.

 

[The Mom]

This is a common practice at all hotels, just look at the room rates posted on the back of room doors. The Hyatt in downtown NO charged $170 a night, heavily discounted for a conference I was at but the room retailed for $390. The purpose of the bait and switch is to make guests feel good that they got a good deal and is widely done throughout the US by all major chains.

I think it is so they can't be accused of price gouging. The DC hotels have incredible prices listed on the door, but I suspect that they can get some people to pay them for Inauguration.