The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[Disneyhead'71]

New Fantasyland- $425 Million
Diagon Alley- $265 Million

 

[flyerjab]

I don't think they feel it's maxed out or they wouldn't have added FLE or Avatar or be considering anything for DHS or EPCOT. They are just investing at a slow and deliberate pace. I have more of an issue with the cutbacks to the current offerings and slipping maintenance than the lack of new investments.

I guess that beyond Avatar, I am not seeing what I would consider major additions. To me, the FL expansion was more due to increasing overall park capacity as opposed to, "hey, let's create a brand new land on the expansion pad in back of/adjacent to FL (sorry, I don't know where all of the expansion pads are - I am such a rookie). Also, the addition of the TLM ride is not a mind bending attraction to me. Don't get me wrong, I really like NFL, especially the 7DMT - the animatronic dwarves in the first show area are simply amazing to me. Also, I think that from an immersive experience, the area that now comprises the finished 7DMT, TLM, BATB is incredible from an aesthetics point-of-view. I love walking around there, especially at night. And the views from the 7DMT are incredible - I also like doing standby, just so I can walk through and enjoy the theming. However, when I talk expansion or addition, I guess I have been spoiled by DA over at UNI. I have not been there as of yet. However, the pictures - have you seen Nocturne Alley? - elicit jaw-dropping level responses.

My hope as a true WDW fan is that the completed Avatar expansion - a true expansion in every sense of the word, meaning no attractions are being replaced with other attractions - has a big impact on DAK in terms of management seeing major return on investment. That addition, along with the nighttime show and safari, to me is what expanding a park's experiences is all about. For my money, DAK is headed in the right direction in terms of expanding and improving upon one of the half day parks (I actually can spend an entire day at DAK as I view the animal trails as major level attractions in terms of cost, theming and time spent exploring). The huge Avatar addition, the expanded Harambe with new Lion King Theater, added walkway with possible new QS area, the Harambe Nights up charge event (that seems to be hugely popular), the new Macaw experience, as well as the upcoming Rivers of Light with Tree of Life lighting upgrades (I think) - this is a park that is moving in a significantly better direction in terms of expansion. For me, I am a FL fan, but DAK follows 2nd in terms of my favorite WDW parks. After what is coming the next few years, DAK might be my favorite park in Orlando.

 

[GoofGoof]

I think you pointed out one of the main problems people have with Disney. "Love it or hate it FLE was a half billion dollar investment." You realize Disney's Animal Kingdom cost $800 million to build? They spent the same amount they could have spent to build an entire new park on a land expansion that is considerably lacking.

Is the "New" Fantasyland pretty to look at? Sure. It lacks in substance though. There is a lot they could have done to offer more attractions and still save money at the same time.

Yep. The choice of investments is what comes into question. I am in the minority group that likes FLE, but the cost seems insane. Unfortunately, I think that seems to be the trend in theme parks. Universal built a whole new Potter Land with only 1 ride plus the train to connect to the other Potter Land. The original WWOHP had 1 new ride. Carsland has 1 main ride and 2 minor ones. AvatarLand is rumored to be 1 E-ticket and maybe a second ride. The difference between FLE and the others I've listed is each of the others had a major E-ticket. That's probably where FLE missed the boat. All of these additions are heavy on shops and restaurants which make ancillary profits for the company.

 

[GoofGoof]

New Fantasyland- $425 Million
Diagon Alley- $265 Million

That is just mind boggling. Does $265M include HE or just DA?

 

[asianway]

Thanks for the reply @marni1971. I guess to people like myself that are not classically educated in the business world, all I can see is more money on top of more money. They can definitely take the passive approach which is what they seem to be doing at present and they still make gobs of money. However, they could build onto their captive audience with new entertainment and ultimately make even more money. I would probably be a horrible CEO, as I would want to do nothing but constantly spend money. I watch youtube clips of the rides/themed environments of TDL/TDS and HKDL and know that I would simply blow through money if I could run an entertainment company that could churn out quality experiences like that. The video I saw of Pooh's Hunny Hunt was simply amazing. Comparing that to WDWs Pooh ride is almost unfair as they are not even close to being in the same league.

I am more curious if TWDC thinks that WDW has maxed out in terms of the parks. Clearly they don't feel that way when it comes to DVC in that location. I have wondered if that is why, instead of expanding in Florida, they have added to DL with DCA, and are expanding like crazy in the Pacific Rim countries. Hell, it wouldn't even surprise me if the DCL expanded to that part of the world as I think that TWDC sees Asia as a cash cow that is also willing to pump money into the parks.

Do a forum search on "blue ocean strategy" you will find it enlightening

 

[Funmeister]

Yep. The choice of investments is what comes into question. I am in the minority group that likes FLE, but the cost seems insane. Unfortunately, I think that seems to be the trend in theme parks. Universal built a whole new Potter Land with only 1 ride plus the train to connect to the other Potter Land. The original WWOHP had 1 new ride. Carsland has 1 main ride and 2 minor ones. AvatarLand is rumored to be 1 E-ticket and maybe a second ride. The difference between FLE and the others I've listed is each of the others had a major E-ticket. That's probably where FLE missed the boat. All of these additions are heavy on shops and restaurants which make ancillary profits for the company.

To be fair I did not say I did not like it. The sad thing is they forgot about the rest of the land. Start at Liberty Square and count the different styles (that do not match or flow) as you walk to the teacups. No continuity.

 

[RSoxNo1]

That's true. Although at the time Maelstrom could have been argued an E for 1988 standards. As could The Living Seas pavilion in 86. Horizons was the true last single E in October 1983, but with the mushroomed budget of EPCOT Center still pulling the company down plus the takeover threat and change of top brass it wasn't exactly the best time for the company, a company with very little free cash.

Credit to Eisner and Wells, a few months after they began they instigated the DMGM project and the long dormant Grand Floridian. As if a third gate wasn't enough, the additions to the MK and EPCOT Center that were started plus a whole other new multiple resort area on undeveloped land began an unprecedented period of growth from 1985-1990. 6 resorts under design and construction, infrastructure, two lakes and connecting canal system plus a third gate, 4 EPCOT Center pavilions, MK upgrades, Pleasure Island and a new Waterpark all under development virtually at once. Looking back it was stunning. Quite the opposite of Stagnant. Especially at a time the company was trying to rebuild its severely hit cash reserve. Unlike today.

We can call something like The Seas Pavilion as an E-Ticket, even though no single component fits that description. However, to be fair you would also have to count New Fantasyland for the same reasons.

We're arguing semantics at this point, and the greater issue is that the parks are stale and need new rides.

 

[GoofGoof]

I guess that beyond Avatar, I am not seeing what I would consider major additions.

That's where we have to wait to see how things unfold. If a DHS project is announced and opened in say 2019 or 2020 then the decade between 2010 and 2020 will have FLE, AK makeover including Avatarland and DHS makeover including SW Land plus possibly new Soarin video in EPCOT and some other changes there (Frozen Maelstrom? Rat ride? Something with Imagination?) It will go down as a pretty solid decade. Certainly a vast improvement over the 2000 to 2010 decade, but nothing like the Disney decade. If nothing happens in DHS or EPCOT it will go down as another lean decade for WDW.

 

[NearTheEars]

now it's slapped together summer promotions that replace the previous summer promotion that was so meaningless that no one could even describe it in a sentence. "Show Your Disney Side"... what the heck does that mean?

Search #disneyside on twitter, Instagram, Facebook etc. there are thousands of photos and posts that should help you out with a definition.

Isit an added bonus promotion? Heck no. It is an advertising campaign that encouraged visitors and Disney fans to get involved. And its working pretty well for what it is intended to do.

I'm not sure why it gets compared to the previous celebrations and giveaways and such. That's not what it is.

 

[RSoxNo1]

How often must it be said... The parks do not live on e-tickets alone.

You are also comparing 'newborn' periods where a product that is successful will rapidly expand to periods after they stabilize. The period in question is one of the most active periods in the sense of how much was under way. No it didn't open until x years later but that's because we are talking about entire parks!

Contrast that with the trickle model in use today.. That is not sufficent for the size of the property today

3 new attractions in say 1985 went a lot further then.. In two parks and a smaller resort... Than 3 attractions does now refreshing a much larger, older property

I agree, and when 1982 and 1983 overloaded Epcot with ETickets, that wasn't what was needed.

I would argue that DHS doesn't really need E tickets, it has a top heavy attraction lineup that needs to be rounded out. But the IPs that are being considered are going to be dominated with a large E ticket and hopefully the C tickets to round out the land(s).

 

[flynnibus]

We can call something like The Seas Pavilion as an E-Ticket, even though no single component fits that description. However, to be fair you would also have to count New Fantasyland for the same reasons.

Yes, because a fake castle, rocks, and decorations is on par with the ambition of opening the WORLDS LARGEST AQUARIUM and attempting to convince people they are being transported to an undersea base. Totally on the same level...

I totally get some people can't look back and realize what the scale of things were back then.. because they are spoiled by today... but can you at least try to put yourself in the time perspective when judging things?

 

[GoofGoof]

To be fair I did not say I did not like it. The sad thing is they forgot about the rest of the land. Start at Liberty Square and count the different styles (that do not match or flow) as you walk to the teacups. No continuity.

Agreed. If they took the extra step to redo original fantasyland to better match the look and quality of New Fantasyland it would go a long way towards completing the land. Unfortunately, I don't think they see enough of an ROI to do it. The masses don't notice the theming anyway, their faces are buried in their iPhones making their next FP+ reservation

 

[marni1971]

We can call something like The Seas Pavilion as an E-Ticket, even though no single component fits that description. However, to be fair you would also have to count New Fantasyland for the same reasons.

We're arguing semantics at this point, and the greater issue is that the parks are stale and need new rides.

Oh absolutely. NFL as an area is an E. Shame it doesn't have an E ticket.

Its cost is an absolute disgrace given the final product.

The stale parks is the more worrying thing. A billion each for Epcot and DHS would make both parks world class again if they were run by another company. Given the way TWDC works I fear it wouldn't nearly be enough.

 

[GoofGoof]

Oh absolutely. NFL as an area is an E. Shame it doesn't have an E ticket.

Its cost is an absolute disgrace given the final product.

The stale parks is the more worrying thing. A billion each for Epcot and DHS would make both parks world class again if they were run by another company. Given the way TWDC works I fear it wouldn't nearly be enough.

They probably need a billion just to fix what's there before even adding anything new.

 

[NearTheEars]

How often must it be said... The parks do not live on e-tickets alone.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. That sentence goes against the thousands of posts here saying WDW is stale because they haven't built an e ticket since EE.

 

[71jason]

I hope universal never does this because I'm afraid disney just discovered that cardboard and plywood are literally all they have to give their main demographics, and succeed.

Clearly my friend you've never experienced Grinchmas.

 

[flynnibus]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. That sentence goes against the thousands of posts here saying WDW is stale because they haven't built an e ticket since EE.

Words out of context... are just drivel.

 

[NearTheEars]

Yes, because a fake castle, rocks, and decorations is on par with the ambition of opening the WORLDS LARGEST AQUARIUM and attempting to convince people they are being transported to an undersea base. Totally on the same level...

I totally get some people can't look back and realize what the scale of things were back then.. because they are spoiled by today... but can you at least try to put yourself in the time perspective when judging things?

I wish I would have gotten to experience this. I've heard people call it underwhelming, but it had to have been better than NEMO is now, right? It sounds cool.

 

[NearTheEars]

Words out of context... are just drivel.

This whole thread is the context. I'd just argue that many folks here would think that's a crazy statement. Not a personal attack on you. Just basing that on what I see here every day. Just check out the FLE section.

 

[71jason]

@berlioz70 saying in the other thread A&E are equity. Maybe I'll give a lifestyler a YouTube click...Steve doesn't have it yet right?

Avoiding spoilers (had a positive experience doing that with Diagon), but if they talk/sing, they have to be Equity, right? And I can't image they stand there mutely. Let's be honest, the number of Equity actresses Disney has "on retainer" who could pass for teen girls is pretty limited, I imagine they'll be recognizable to hard-core fans. Almost certainly pulled from Disney Rocks.