and the 40 dollars I save in not having to pay for breakfast every morning more than makes up for the 6$ I paid for parking. Also the Florida resident rate for ASMU is 99$ this week, so rates will vary. The same hotel I am staying at now is 74$ in 3 weeks, with breakfast included.
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The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)
- Thread starter WDW1974
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and the 40 dollars I save in not having to pay for breakfast every morning more than makes up for the 6$ I paid for parking. Also the Florida resident rate for ASMU is 99$ this week, so rates will vary. The same hotel I am staying at now is 74$ in 3 weeks, with breakfast included.
Disneyhead'71
Well-Known Member
Everything is AWESOME!
Disneyhead'71
Well-Known Member
What about $2300 for a month in a 4 bedroom, 3 bath, screened pool and hot tub, full kitchen (granite, stainless) home in Windermere?
PrincessNelly_NJ
Well-Known Member
We're paying $250 for a river view at POFQ with free dining and that's with 3 adults in October.
I still can't stomach that in 2015, a preferred room for the us 3 would cost $298 at CBR in September
.... on a weekday! 
Over $300 for a week night.The refurb looks nice though.
Mammymouse
Well-Known Member
I don't think you are using the right apples to apples analogy. The DVC $67 a night room is a limited (very few) rooms in the total DVC group and $67 is only available at the least preferred location, in the lowest season (time period) of all. I would guess that 1 and 2 bedroom units are the vast majority of the accomodations at BWV, with the Grand Villa coming in 3rd (because of lock out/in suites), and cost much more than the studios do, especially in the more preferred location and time periods. And originally the DVC started out as a stand alone resort, ie. Old Key West. Then Boardwalk Villas - next built, was built as a separate unit from the hotel, so I fail to see how the DVC's are ruining the hotel experience?
rael ramone
Well-Known Member
In my time away, I've been thinking about 'Disney's Best Kept Secret' that isn't a secret to us anymore....
When you are a hotel/timeshare business that has theme parks as an ancilliary aspect, the biggest failure (from a $$$ perspective) is an empty deluxe room. There are three different ways to fix that problem. One was to decrease the room price to match the amenities provided. The second was to increase the amenities to match the rack rates. They chose door #3.
There's a type of guest that is perhaps not thought of as much: The guest who sees the resort AS a resort, and wants to experience it as such. He/she sees the hotels & the parks are like peanut butter & jelly - no interest in one without the other. But I suspect not all of these would also qualify as 'pixie dusters'. They enjoy a resort vacation. But they also know about hotel pricepoints and what amenities one would expect to see at those points (their job in the real world may involve lots of business travel). They are aware of a decrease in quality that coincides with an increase in prices (which is why these guests would never sign the dotted line for DVC). They may have a higher 'pain threshhold', but what happens when that threshhold is past?
If they lose interest in the accomodations, they may lose interest in the parks as well. The only $$$ the Mouse gets from these people then are from their ESPN carriage fees. If they want an resort experience and WDW fails them, they go to Atlantis or another inclusive resort...
When you are a hotel/timeshare business that has theme parks as an ancilliary aspect, the biggest failure (from a $$$ perspective) is an empty deluxe room. There are three different ways to fix that problem. One was to decrease the room price to match the amenities provided. The second was to increase the amenities to match the rack rates. They chose door #3.
There's a type of guest that is perhaps not thought of as much: The guest who sees the resort AS a resort, and wants to experience it as such. He/she sees the hotels & the parks are like peanut butter & jelly - no interest in one without the other. But I suspect not all of these would also qualify as 'pixie dusters'. They enjoy a resort vacation. But they also know about hotel pricepoints and what amenities one would expect to see at those points (their job in the real world may involve lots of business travel). They are aware of a decrease in quality that coincides with an increase in prices (which is why these guests would never sign the dotted line for DVC). They may have a higher 'pain threshhold', but what happens when that threshhold is past?
If they lose interest in the accomodations, they may lose interest in the parks as well. The only $$$ the Mouse gets from these people then are from their ESPN carriage fees. If they want an resort experience and WDW fails them, they go to Atlantis or another inclusive resort...
ParentsOf4
Well-Known Member
I compared similar BWI and BWV rooms with comparable square footage & views for the exact same dates.
It’s unclear to me why you want to compare individual BWI hotel rooms with significantly larger 1-bedroom, 2-bedroom, or Grand Villa BWV rooms. If anyone is comparing apples-to-oranges, it seems to be you.
BWI has a total of 372 rooms of several different room configurations and views. The BWI’s Garden Cottages are particularly lovely, and those of us who are DVC members wish we could book those using DVC points.
BWV has no dedicated 2-bedroom villas. By the numbers, BWV has 97 Studios, 130 one-bedrooms, 149 lock-offs, and 7 Grand Villas, a total of 532 rooms (if booked individually) or 383 (if all the lock-offs are booked as 2-bedroom villas).
As most DVC members know, the first rooms to get booked at BWV are the Standard View Studios, making it difficult to book a Standard View room in a 2-bedroom configuration. Most Standard View rooms end up getting booked as Studios or 1-bedrooms.
At the other end of the spectrum, cash guests can rent Grand Villas either at BWI or BWV. The Grand Villas are quite grand, over 2,000 sq ft. Usually, these run at over $2000/night for cash guests whereas DVC members staying on points typically pay around $600/night or less for these. Comparing these two seem like a fair apples-to-apples comparison to me.
Similarly, cash guests also can purchase stays at 1- or 2-bedroom villas, similar to DVC members. The ratio in cost between cash guest and DVC member remains fairly constant across most room types.
It’s unclear to me why you think comparing a single BWI room to a BWV 1-bedroom villa (which has twice the square footage) is somehow a fair comparison, when cash guests can purchase the exact same room as DVC members, if they are willing to spend more.
It’s unclear to me why you are bringing OKW into the discussion. IMHO, OKW and SSR both feel more like Moderate Resorts. There’s a reason these two DVC resorts nearly always have rooms available even when every other DVC resort is booked solid.
Not exactly correct here. OKW was first, then VB & HHI. BWV then followed. Both BWI and BWV were opened on the same day in 1996. The two share all common areas. For all intents and purposes, BWI and BWV are simply two wings of the exact same hotel.
I suggest you go back and reread my earlier post regarding how DVC lessens the Deluxe Resort experience. Instead of looking at it from what appears to be an emotional perspective, I respectfully suggest you look at the problem from a cash flow perspective.
As I previously mentioned, the least-expensive standard view BWI room for October 2014 is $405/night (with tax), even with the current 25% discount.
A large 2-bedroom Boardwalk View BWV villa (which sleeps up to 9) costs $234/night for those same nights using DVC points.
I suppose you would consider these two to be an apples-to-apples comparison.
Why, I cannot fathom.
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The Incredible Schmulk
Well-Known Member
Those were the good ol' days for Disney discounts. That year, we (my wife and I) stayed in October on a 35% room-only discount for French Quarter, and then went back for my birthday in early January on a bounceback offer for 45% off a deluxe villa. We managed to get a studio at the Boardwalk in a the low season for a cost similar to what it would be to rent points. Haven't seen anything that good since, and I doubt I ever will. I'm currently hoping that the AP discount this year for our October stay will get as high as 25%, which makes a moderate just barely worth the cost for us.Let's talk real numbers. These are dated... but it was the last time I dumped all this on a forum. This was a value stay at WDW. If someone was throwing around $8500.. I'd do a 7 day cruise. It's a lot cheaper
But for WDW... here's an old post of mine (June 2009)
The True Cost of a WDW Vacation
Since we just got back from a few days at the kingdom, it was a good time to review our true costs of the trip. Traveling to XYZ vs ABC park is a common discussion topic so I figured sharing our expenses with you will give you all a peek into the true costs of going.
For us it was a family of 5, visiting for 5 days. We were trying to keep it on the cheap side, but not necessarily stripped down. So we booked a few table services, and didn't shy away from spending when necessary.. but didn't go crazy
Airfare:
This segment will always vary for everyone, so it's not as interesting. But in our case, I used miles for 3 of the tickets, mine was paid for because of business, and so we only had to buy one ticket outright.
That ticket for IAD to MCO was $233.20. If we paid for them all, it would have been $1166. It also cost us $60 to park at the airport.
Rental Car:
Because of the 5 people, we needed at least a full sized car. Hotwire car for 5 days = $189.02. Gas for rental car = $18.35
Tickets:
We paid for 5 day park hoppers, at military discount.
3 adults @ 267 each
2 kids @ 232.50 each
Total = $1266
Hotel:
This area will vary greatly as well.. and as noted we were trying to stay cheap this time. So we stayed at the All-Star Sports. However, because we had 5 people, we needed 2 rooms.
Disney was running summer specials, so the rooms were $89 or $99 a night. The next closest prices were either $100 or $300 more. Our total for 2 rooms, for Fri-Wed was $1050.90
So our total 'hard' costs that are outside discretionary spending were:
$ 233.20 Airfare
$ 60.00 Parking
$ 189.02 Car
$ 18.35 Gas
$1266.00 Tickets
$1050.90 Hotel
---------------
$2817.47 Total
Discretionary Spending
Food:
Normally people pick apart food prices. For me, to enjoy my vacation I just need to shut that part of my brain off during vacation to avoid the stress or frustration.
We had 4 table service reservations during the trip, 3 dinners, and 1 breakfast. I'll also break out 'concessions' purchases as normally people look at those buys differently. However, given it was completely oppressive heat while we where there, there was 'no holds barred' kind of buying on drinks. If we need one, we got one. Especially the frozen drinks. On table service, usually I wouldn't get an entree, so these prices are not quite 5 people eating..
Table Service Meals
$ 88.00 Sci-Fi Dine-In
$121.13 Tusker House Character Breakfast
$108.14 Whispering Canyon
$ 73.55 San Angel
Counter Service Meals
$ 35.09 Food Court
$ 7.45 Food Court
$ 19.24 Food Court
$ 28.61 Backlot Express
$ 13.90 Food Court
$ 29.26 Food Court
$ 10.79 Food Court
$ 28.06 Caseys Corner
$ 13.29 Cosmic Rays
$ 17.64 Cosmic Rays
Cart Sales$ 6.16 MK
$ 7.01 DHS
$ 7.55 DHS
$ 5.00 MK
$ 7.01 DHS
$10.09 DHS
$ 6.53 DHS
$10.75 DAK
$ 4.04 DAK
$13.50 EPC
$11.25 DHS
$ 7.01 DHS
$ 5.10 DHS
$ 4.57 MK
$ 7.01 MK
Total Food Spending
$ 390.94 Table Service
$ 203.33 Counter Service
$ 112.58 Cart Sales
---------------------
$ 706.85 Total
Merchandise
We only really make two buys.. some shirts and some small things.
$ 17.00
$ 61.67
$ 51.60
--------
$ 130.27 Total
Grand Totals
$2817.47 Transportation, Lodging, Tickets
$ 706.85 Food
$ 130.27 Merchandise
-------------
$3654.59 Total
So there you have it.. $3600 for 5 people for 5 days.
I think in 2014 prices, you can probably bump that $3600 up by at least $500, maybe quite a lot more when you factor in the ever-rising cost of airfare.
Cesar R M
Well-Known Member
did you really answered to yourself???
UpAllNight
Well-Known Member
Booked a 16 night holiday to Florida from the UK last month for next June. I looked with an open mind at all options, including Disney, Universal Etc. The prices for Disney are absolutely extortionate and despite obvious advantages of staying on site, we didn't think that the costs warranted the cost vs advantages. Weirdly, Universal was appealing, even the more pricey hotels although we eventually settled on international drive due to the hotel offering free transport to ALL parks. I think the problem for me regarding Disney, is I plan on doing maybe 4 or 5 days at the universal parks, a day in seaworld, maybe Busch Gardens, maybe discovery Cove and Aquatica. When I last visited (my first visit, 11 years ago) we spent the majority of our time at Disney...maybe because it was new to us. We loved it, although since my last visit Disney don't seem to have added enough new attractions to appeal to us. As a result of that, it's not 1 or 2 days Disney will lose from me to their rivals, but maybe a week. Fundamentally, it's the lack of new attractions that I think has swayed us, and the appeal of other entertainment options in Florida. If you're going to charge a premium price, at least work for my money.
NeXuS1000
Well-Known Member
So basically, our approach is to split it up into two weeks and two different hotels; one week on I-drive, going to Universal, SeaWorld etc., and one week in Disney, staying on-site.
I think that will be a good, fun mix.
GoofGoof
Premium Member
As usual I agree with your math. It makes a lot of sense and I can see where Disney loses out long term. In your example I look at $67 as basically what it costs to run the resort on a per room, per night basis. The DVC payment is enough to pretty much break even with a small management fee that is profit. The $407 room essentially has $330 of profit and maybe $77 to cover costs (assuming that the cash rooms cost a little more to operate because of daily housekeeping). Assuming a 70% occupancy rate that’s roughly $75,000 a year per room in profit. If you take the 45 years of “profit” that the room would have generated during the DVC contract and calculate the 1996 present value of those cash flows I’m guessing the number may be somewhere close to the original profit from selling DVC, but probably not as high. From a total return on the project DVC makes a lot of sense. You are making less profit, but your gain is locked in upfront. Where it hurts is in future year cash flows.
Where I will disagree to some extent is the impact on the resort of having DVC. I still don’t see how having DVC somehow lessens the experience for the cash guest. I see why it hurts Disney. I guess I don’t think Disney is or would pump resort profits back into the resorts if they were all cash rooms. I don’t see DVC as resulting in reduced services or experience. The level of service and the amenities is set before the points are sold and the maintenance fees are set to cover those services. The only issue you could have is in potentially adding amenities down the line. If you look at a resort that is all cash rooms and determine that adding a larger water slide and a hot tub at the pool will allow you to charge $10 more per night and that the return of that investment is worth it you can green light it. With DVC there is little economic incentive to add something new like that if it isn’t budgeted and you would need to pass the cost on to owners in the form of an increase in maintenance fees which may or may not go over well. With DVC all future improvements or refurbs are planned and scheduled from the start. If the hard goods look warn or dated you have to wait until close to the scheduled date to do a refurb. I guess what I’m saying is that adding DVC won’t necessarily reduce the cash guest’s current experience but it could limit future additional enhancements.
OK I don't need a lecture on how the economy works. Companies make money by making products or services that people want to buy, Disney obviously makes products and services that people want to buy (otherwise people wouldn't be buying them). I don't see anyone walking into Disney World with a gun to their head or being glued to their chair being forced to watch ESPN.
PS my nephew is a broker and makes about the same as a good plumber.
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ParentsOf4
Well-Known Member
Let's look at the problem using some different numbers to simplify the math.
Assume half all BWI/BWV guests are paying a hotel rate of $400/night. Assume the other half are paying a DVC rate of $100/night. The average rate is $250/night.
Now, running the hotel, there will be a margin expected. For the sake of discussion, let's assume it's 100%. In other words, of that $250/night average, $125/night go into costs; $125/night is profit.
Based on the average per night rate of income, Disney is spending $125/night to keep its guests happy.
A DVC member paying $100/night comes out ahead. The pricing structure is great for them.
A cash guest comes out behind; way behind.
Now, imagine what Disney would do if DVC was not there.
There are two basic scenarios to consider.
Scenario 1: To get more guests to cough up the extra $300/night in order to fill up all those rooms, Disney would have to provide better service. Those who were willing to pay $400/night today would benefit because Disney would need to improve the hotel to get the equivalent of another half (i.e. the missing DVC members) to pay $400/night to fill those rooms.
Scenario 2: Disney would have to lower rates so that rather than asking $400/night, they ask (for example) $300/night. Again, those who were willing to pay $400/night benefit.
What DVC causes is either reduced service (i.e. those paying $400/night are not receiving the true benefits of a hotel that charges all its customers $400/night) or higher hotel rates (i.e. those paying $400/night really should have been paying only $300/night).
Now, we can debate each step along the way but, ultimately, having DVC at a WDW resort benefits DVC members to the detriment of cash guests.
Stevek
Well-Known Member
Nope, but that doesn't mean that many of us can't comment that the product isn't as good as it once was or should be. Just because people are willing to pay, doesn't mean it's the same quality or a value it once was (and I do believe there is still some great quality there). And therein lies the big problem. Disney has no incentive to make significant upgrades/changes as long as folks keep coming whereas in previous decades is was about creating new, exciting experiences to excite guests when they get there. I'm just as guilty as the next guy...at least I was until my last trip in March. I won't be back anytime soon unless there is something new to get me to fly all the way across country. Now you could argue the New Fantasyland or an update to Test Track are new experiences but there are other quite a few other things that have either been taken away or lessened in quality that tilt the balance sheet in the wrong direction...in my (and many others) opinions.
At the end of the day, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion but many others here will disagree with you. And it's not because we hate Disney, many of us love it or else we wouldn't be here. I even think that old sourpuss
@WDW1974 actually loves the parks...which is why he is so vocal about the direction they have gone. However, we want portions of Disney i.e. the Parks to be what they once were. A heavy investment in Magic Bands/MM+ is not what many who have experienced it feel is a worthy investment. While I did enjoy booking by FP+ and the flexibility associated with it, I really had no improvement in my overall visit and would argue that certain aspects of it were not as enjoyable as my previous 2 visits i.e. longer standby lines, having to plan everything advance. One really needs to look no further than Disneyland, my home park, to see what is being done right (for the most part).
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GoofGoof
Premium Member
Not likely that they go with scenario 1. They had been going with scenario 3 which is keep the price high and leave half the resort empty. Scenario 2 would be the likely longer term plan without DVC.
I fully acknowledge that cash guests will have a harder time booking rooms certain times of the year and will likely pay more than they would have if DVC wasn't added to these resorts. When I said I didn't see how DVC would lessen the experience for cash guests I meant once they checked in. The experience at the resort wouldn't change other than maybe larger crowds since the occupancy rate will be up.
Cesar R M
Well-Known Member
I still feel like Disney is kinda ripping the clients off.
I mean.. they introduce DVC as a "cheaper alternative".
But, you're still locked for years and are forced to use those points.
Also, you get the announced "cheaper price" with the reduction of quality (less housekeeping..etc..).
You kinda get "a moderate feel" for still higher price.. with the tag of "A Deluxe feel for less!"
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GoofGoof
Premium Member
With the money saved you could pay for housekeeping each day and still come out ahead
. I think it's a pretty steep cost ($30 a day for a full cleaning) but if you are only paying the equivalent of $67 for your room it would still be under $100. The lack of daily housekeeping is typical of a timeshare. It's definitely a different vibe than a standard deluxe hotel. More like renting a condo or house at the beach for a week. I think Disney had a seperate category for DVC resorts in the past (not sure if they still do). They weren't listed as deluxe, but rather home away from home. Although you don't get housekeeping daily they do have additional activities including a daily pool party as well as camp fires with s'mores and movies under the stars at night. Some offer additional activities at a community hall. Mostly games or crafts and stuff for kids, but they did have complimentary beer tasting at BLT the last time I was there
. They also advertised fishing excursions (those were an additional charge).
Nubs70
Well-Known Member
Let's take 1 room cash at $400 and 1 room DVC at $67. Combined the cash inflow is $467 for the night. If both rooms get the same "experience". They each receive $233.50 of "experience".
Cash room pays $400 and receives $233.50 in "experience"
DVC pays $67 and receives $233.50 in "experience".
*numbers were kept simple for purpose of illustration.
Remember it's $8,500 for 5 people, i.e. $1,700 pr. person. That's still a lot of money, but not outrageous, IMO, when you consider it includes lodging, activities (i.e. park entries) and dining.
So yeah, I'm blowing roughly 6,5% of an average american's salary for that week, but then again, wasn't your point earlier that Deluxe resorts shouldn't really be for the average joe's?
$1,700 for person for lodging, activities and dining really isn't that crazy in the vacation world. We've done cheaper, yes, but there's far more outrageous vacation offers out there. Higher quality as well? Sure, but while I have yet to experience this upcoming week at WDW, my expecations are aligned with the price. Let's follow up on that when I'm back, shall we?
I'm a fairly savvy traveler. And compared to the average American (sadly), a quite worldly one. I think $8,500 for a week at WDW is an obscene sum of money for five people. And I am guessing that doesn't include the airfare across the Atlantic, yes?
I am sure we'll all enjoy hearing about your WDW experiences when you get back.
Disney, ultimately, loves DVC ... is addicted to DVC like crystal meth ... I mean Pixie Dust ... because they get the big bang upfront. Sure, locking people in generally means that at least a large percentage will return for a while (and, presumably, spent while here).
But getting that $20,000 upfront (or close as you can only finance for a short period, no 30-year mortgage-like loans) or more depending on points purchased is a quick hit. And like meth, it quickly gives that high (in this case to the bottom line). But it also has diminishing returns ...
And sometimes they stop working because lousy leadership breaks something (see: New Coke) and decides to drastically change the way business has been run.
Disney has in essence been running WDW in a post/9/11 mindset for 13 years now. It's time to "Let It Go'' and not have a constant sky is falling mentality, especially as you bathe in record profits year after year.
You brought it up in a snarky way. At least I can now say that Danes can be just as snarky as Americans. Congrats!