The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[xstech25]

and i love WDW as much as the next poster on this site, but "by far the best place in the world to visit." good god, man. you need to get out more. although you do have a future of disney PR if you want it, because you're hitting talking points like mike trout crushes hanging sliders.

I've been to Europe 3x, Africa once, all the major theme parks in America (Disney, Universal, Six Flags, Cedar Fair, Herschend, and the independent/family ones), as well as most of the famous national parks in the country. In terms of tourist destinations I still think Disney by far "ran the best" out of all of them. To be honest I even loved going to the Disneyland in Paris because even though it is clearly not as well ran as the American parks, the place is still much cleaner/friendlier/better operated than anywhere else I went in France.

 

[TalkingHead]

I've been to Europe 3x, Africa once, all the major theme parks in America (Disney, Universal, Six Flags, Cedar Fair, Herschend, and the independent/family ones), as well as most of the famous national parks in the country. In terms of tourist destinations I still think Disney by far "ran the best" out of all of them. To be honest I even loved going to the Disneyland in Paris because even though it is clearly not as well ran as the American parks, the place is still much cleaner/friendlier/better operated than anywhere else I went in France.

You'd think a college professor would know how to use verb tenses properly.

 

[TalkingHead]

It's the "by far the best place in the world to visit" type of quote that makes me thing this is a Disney employee posting. I enjoy WDW as well but I'd rather visit Disneyland...which isn't even in my top 10 of places in the world to visit. This is a classic symptom of someone that has ingested far too much pixie dust.

WDW might make a top-20 list of places to visit in the US -- if you only considered a once-in-a-lifetime trip.

But to say it's the best place to visit in the world and, presumably, spend $1000s to visit dozens of times in order to experience the same, stale Disney magic over and over again?

Now that's a classic pixie dust symptom.

 

[GoofGoof]

I'm in a suburb of Atlanta that is the typical non-reality zone of America, where the vast majority of people think that the rest of the country is just like here, which is wayyyyyy far from reality. I see it here and I've heard it. Whether it's being a WDW Annual Passholder and having a decal on the car to being a DVC person with the license plate or wearing the clothing, the asinine bragging thing is real. It's quite pathetic if you ask me. Zillions of people that don't even have running water in the world and these types are trying to impress you with their Disney stuff. Ugh.

Isn't this true of most non-essential things in life. Cars, houses, clothing, jewelry, hobies, dining out, electronics, etc... Did I really need an iphone? I could have gotten an old school flip phone for free and donated the cash to a charity. Do I need a 50 inch TV? I could have gotten a 30 inch and donated the rest to charity. Do I really need a BMW? I could have bought a used Kia and given the difference to the poor. Do you really need season tickets to a sports team when the games are on TV for free? The list goes on. People brag about all kinds of things.

I see where you are coming from and I struggle with some of these questions myself. Do I really need these things? Should I be doing more for other people that need help? I try to do things for other people who are less fortunate than me when I can, but I haven't taken a vow of poverty so I don't necessarily feel guilty when I spend money on luxury items that I don't necessarily need, but just want. I don't spend a lot of money on clothing and jewelry and cars and electronics (other than my iphone which is going on 4 years old now). What I like to spend my extra money on is vacations. I think it's insane that my co-worker spent $1,500 on a purse when you can get one at Target for $20. She thinks its insane that I go to WDW and spend $5,000 on a vacation at an amusement park when you can go to Six Flaggs down the road and get discounted park tickets if you have a Coke can.

 

[GrammieBee]

We are now on page 88 and I have read all of the posts. I'm retired and can make the time. So, anyway, here are some random thoughts.

There is a difference between being a Disney fan and being a Disney fanatic. You can like something without being obsessive about it.

I frankly dont know how the average family can cough up the large chunk of cash required to buy into Disney's time shares which are about the most expensive out there. They must make a heck of a lot more than we ever earned. By the time the average family pays for their mortgage, probable car loan, retirement savings, credit card balance and just plain living expenses there is usually not much left over. If they finance at 15+% for ten years,that's just plain scary. I'm not saying that some don't find a way to make it work for them especially if they are savvy enough to buy a resale.

If there are rules and dress codes that are not enforced, they are not rules at all and everyone is free to ignore them. However, in our experience we have found that if you set standards and enforce them, people will rise to the standard. If there are no standards being enforced the level of behavior and/or dress will continue to sink to the lowest common demoniator. My husband and I call it the slobbing of America. We understand that businesses are reluctant to turn away paying customers, but they may lose other customers in the process. Also, there are many who feel it is not "politically correct" to criticize anyone for whatever they are wearing or doing. You might hurt their feelings and it is not your business.

We booked a standard room at the Boardwalk Inn for $404.00 a night for Nov.,2015. That was rack rate, not 25% off as stated in another post.. If I can't get 25% to 30% off when the rooms go on sale, we will cancel and stay somewhere else.

Finally, Cedar Fair is not an amusement park. It is the corporate entity which runs several well known amusement parks includung Cedar Point.

 

[ChrisM]

Remember it's $8,500 for 5 people, i.e. $1,700 pr. person. That's still a lot of money, but not outrageous, IMO, when you consider it includes lodging, activities (i.e. park entries) and dining.

So yeah, I'm blowing roughly 6,5% of an average american's salary for that week, but then again, wasn't your point earlier that Deluxe resorts shouldn't really be for the average joe's?

$1,700 for person for lodging, activities and dining really isn't that crazy in the vacation world. We've done cheaper, yes, but there's far more outrageous vacation offers out there. Higher quality as well? Sure, but while I have yet to experience this upcoming week at WDW, my expecations are aligned with the price. Let's follow up on that when I'm back, shall we?

I'd argue that it's still outrageous, but I completely respect that you're going in which your eyes wide open and understand what you're getting for your money.

That said, I'm about two months away from a 6 person trip, staying at a 2 bedroom BLT villa with a cash reservation. The price is so absurd (with, of course, no discounts available whatsoever) that I can only chuckle when thinking about it - but given several factors (that I only visit every 3-5 years, my children are young and proximity to the MK is highly valued, and my wife isn't comfortable with the idea of renting points), the price is the price - and I'm paying it with the clear understanding of why I'm paying that additional amount and that the perks are valuable enough to me to be worth it. Of course, I am a complete , so I'll say upfront that the other denizens of my resort will almost universally skeeve me out the entire time I'm there but, again, it is what it is.

I'll probably make another Orlando visit 3-4 years from now when my kids are old enough to enjoy Universal, Discovery Cove, and a trip to Cape Canaveral. Maybe a stop by a Disney park or two if the wee ones demand it/to check out Pandora. But if I'm going to pay extortionate prices, I'm going to be doing so with a very clear eye as to what I'm getting out of the deal: either a true luxury hotel or some other perks I find valuable. Which means I'll probably do whatever the nicest US resort is (for included ExpressPass privileges) for a few days and then the Waldorf or Four Seasons.

 

[ABQ]

However, in our experience we have found that if you set standards and enforce them, people will rise to the standard. If there are no standards being enforced the level of behavior and/or dress will continue to sink to the lowest common denominator. My husband and I call it the slobbing of America. We understand that businesses are reluctant to turn away paying customers, but they may lose other customers in the process. Also, there are many who feel it is not "politically correct" to criticize anyone for whatever they are wearing or doing. You might hurt their feelings and it is not your business.

That's the part that irks me most. The sharp pencil wielding folks at Disney just must have never run the stats or they did run them and they speak to the current business model of not enforcing code. I cannot imagine that they'd lost too many if they spoke up about certain standards and they very well may gain new customers or draw more cash from existing ones if they did.

 

[ParentsOf4]

We booked a standard room at the Boardwalk Inn for $404.00 a night for Nov.,2015. That was rack rate, not 25% off as stated in another post.. If I can't get 25% to 30% off when the rooms go on sale, we will cancel and stay somewhere else.

WDW has complex hotel pricing; rack rates vary greatly throughout WDW's many 'seasons', as do discounts.

The $404/night you mention should be the November 2015 rack rate (without tax) for BWI's lowest priced room. In November 2014, this is $399/night. These translate to $455/night and $449/night with tax.

With discount, the lowest priced BWI room is $405/night (including tax) for October 2014. (BTW, this rate might no longer be available; BWI is an incredibly popular hotel for F&WF.) For November 2014 (excluding Thanksgiving), WDW currently is offering $337/night (including tax), a discount of 25%.

There's a pretty good chance you'll get a discount in November 2015.

To the point of this thread, that increase of only $5/night (1.3%) shows the kind of pricing pressure WDW Deluxe Resort hotels currently are under. It shows why Disney should convert Deluxe Resort rooms to DVC. Converting existing hotel rooms reduces inventory, which should help ease pricing pressure. (Think supply and demand. )

 

[xstech25]

WDW might make a top-20 list of places to visit in the US -- if you only considered a once-in-a-lifetime trip.

But to say it's the best place to visit in the world and, presumably, spend $1000s to visit dozens of times in order to experience the same, stale Disney magic over and over again?

Now that's a classic pixie dust symptom.

I live less than 20 minutes away from Disneyland.
A lot of my neighbors kids worked at Disneyland.
Almost everyone in my neighborhood cares about Disney.
I go to Disneyland around 10x a year whereas I go to WDW for a few days once every 2 years or so. I like both.
I've always been a big travel and theme park junkie and standby my statements.
I've seen this company that I grew up with get run into the gutter by Walts son in law. In 1984 I decided that it would be worth investing $5,000 in Disney because I had an attachment to the company and was glad to see it under new management. It's fair to say that Mickey Mouse has made me a lot of money.

Pixie-dusted...maybe. I still visit the parks quite often and believe my viewpoint should be considered.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Fair enough. Are the 15% vs 26% in relation to division revenue or operating income?

It's definitely sad to hear that they have reduced their annual investments from 25-30% to 15%, and that's definitely not something I see as a sound business decision, since people in that business should know that you need a good portion of continuous re-investment to ensure the success of vacation and entertainment properties.

I don't think you can just conclude that their operating income margin is down because of this, though. As far as I understand, park attendance has more or less only gone up and resort occupancy hasn't diminished that much since Iger took over, right? If so, I fairly to see how reduced re-investment since Iger took over has resulted in less operating income margin.

I'm pretty sure that is in one of their postings within the past month or two. If you do a search for posts by user, you will find a lot of the financial dissertations they've posted. Pretty sure the answers to your questions are in there.

Long and the short of it, parents of four is doing better diligence on Disney's theme park performance and investments then Wall Street is…

 

[flynnibus]

I just wonder if they can boost occupancy rates by raising prices at POR & POFQ and limiting the discounts to CSR & CBR will they give up any idea of DVC at the moderates?

Certainly pricing will help steer the needle

IMO I can't fathom them doing DVC at moderates in the current form anyway. The pricing justification works out by comparing Deluxe pricing.. not mods really. They would have to create a whole new tier of DVC exchange I think to make building at the moderates work.

 

[BernardandBianca]

"$8,500 for a week in Orlando isn't outrageous?!?! I could travel the world in Faux Top One Percent style for MONTHS on that amount. "

I'd love to hear how you can do that (truly, I'm jealous). We just got back last autumn from a three week cruise through the Indian Ocean, and dropped a whole heck of a lot more than that (each). Talk about living in Faux Top One Percent style! Course, everything was included from the time we stepped foot in the airport here to when we returned to that airport.

 

[GrammieBee]

WDW has complex hotel pricing; rack rates vary greatly throughout WDW's many 'seasons', as do discounts.

The $404/night you mention should be the November 2015 rack rate (without tax) for BWI's lowest priced room. In November 2014, this is $399/night. These translate to $455/night and $449/night with tax.

With discount, the lowest priced BWI room is $405/night (including tax) for October 2014. (BTW, this rate might no longer be available; BWI is an incredibly popular hotel for F&WF.) For November 2014 (excluding Thanksgiving), WDW currently is offering $337/night (including tax), a discount of 25%.

There's a pretty good chance you'll get a discount in November 2015.

To the point of this thread, that increase of only $5/night (1.3%) shows the kind of pricing pressure WDW Deluxe Resort hotels currently are under. It shows why Disney should convert Deluxe Resort rooms to DVC. Converting existing hotel rooms reduces inventory, which should help ease pricing pressure. (Think supply and demand. )

You are correct. I did not figure in the tax. It is a handicapped accessible room, so I can only hope it will be discounted.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

Certainly pricing will help steer the needle

IMO I can't fathom them doing DVC at moderates in the current form anyway. The pricing justification works out by comparing Deluxe pricing.. not mods really. They would have to create a whole new tier of DVC exchange I think to make building at the moderates work.

Yeah they definitely would... Moderates are getting pricey though.

A preferred room at CBR in September 2015 is $250 a night.... wasn't that long ago I pulled AKL for $280 a night in September 2012...
I can't imagine what kind of DVC package they would offer. But I have heard quite a few people say they would buy DVC if there were a cheaper option allowing them to stay at moderate resorts.
74 was also talking about DVC possibly coming to CBR.

 

[Stevek]

Yeah they definitely would... Moderates are getting pricey though.

A preferred room at CBR in September 2015 is $250 a night.... wasn't that long ago I pulled AKL for $280 a night in September 2012...
I can't imagine what kind of DVC package they would offer. But I have heard quite a few people say they would buy DVC if there were a cheaper option allowing them to stay at moderate resorts.
74 was also talking about DVC possibly coming to CBR.

I wish I could remember how much our AKL Savannah View was back in 2006. Seemed to be right around $200/night which is slightly more than we paid for our CBR room in March but night and day from an experience/quality standpoint.

 

[Cesar R M]

Topicality. This website is called WDWMagic. . . not DisneyDiversifiedHoldings.com. You have not yet spoken of Disney's management of WDW speficially. There are alot of smart people on these boards who have patiently explained the details of those financials, from every angle. Yes, Disney as a whole may be increasing profits and looking at long term investments, but that does not mean WDW itself is sharing in that investment or optimism.

If anything, these moves you're describing may divert even more attention away from the theme parks in Florida.

The bubble was arrested moments later.

 

[hokielutz]

So for WDW's first 30 years of operation WDW ran at over 90% occupancy but now 80% is suddenly acceptable?

Sorry, but I saw your post and Wdw1971's post and I had to do a little bit of research to confirm my thoughts.

I believed, as probably a number of you are thinging as well... Disney's bean counters may have over-estimated the number of rooms they needed / could fill on property. Here is a list of the years of major gate openings and resort openings with room counts in ().

Major Park openings (ticketed):

1971: Magic Kingdom

1975: Buena Vista Shopping Village (now DTD)

1976: River Country

1982 Epcot

1989: Disney- MGM Studios

Typhoon Lagoon

Pleasure Island

1997: Disney’s Wide World of Sports

DTD West Side

1998: Animal Kingdom

Blizzard Beach

2000: Disney Quest





Major Resort Openings:

1971: Polynesian (850)

Contemporary (655)

Fort Wilderness Resort and Campground

1973: Golf Hotel / Shades of Green

1988: Grand Floridian Beach Resort (900) – Start of 10 year hotel expansion.

Caribbean Beach Resort (2,112)

1990: Disney’s Yacht Club Resort (630)

Disney’s Beach Club Resort (580)

WDW Dolphin Resort (1,509)

WDW Swan Resort (756)

1991: Port Orleans Resort (3,000)

1992: Disney’s Old Key West Resort - DVC Phase 1 (760)

1994: All Star Sports (1,900)

All Star Music resorts (1,604)

Wilderness Lodge (730)

Polynesian Expansion with Concierge Building

1996: Boardwalk Inns and Villas

1997: Coronado Springs Resort (1,900 Rooms)



LAST MAJOR GATE ADDED to WDW - 1998


1999: All Star Movies resort (1,600)

2000: The Villas at WL

2001: Animal Kingdom Lodge (1,300 rooms)

2002: DVC Beach Club Villas

2003: Pop Century Resort (2,800 Rooms)

2004: DVC – Saratoga Springs Resort (1,300)

2007: DVC – Animal Kingdom Villas

2009: DVC – BLT

2012: Art of Animation Resort (1,120)



Ultimately... the 10 year expansion under Eisner for resorts and parks.... should have been the end of resort building (with exception of AKL). But they kept adding value resorts and diluting their occupancy base. Also the 'outside the gate' influences of cheaper hotels and villas, but within close driving distance has not allowed Disney to see similar occupancy rates of the 1990's.

Thoughts??

 

[Cesar R M]

"$8,500 for a week in Orlando isn't outrageous?!?! I could travel the world in Faux Top One Percent style for MONTHS on that amount. "

I'd love to hear how you can do that (truly, I'm jealous). We just got back last autumn from a three week cruise through the Indian Ocean, and dropped a whole heck of a lot more than that (each). Talk about living in Faux Top One Percent style! Course, everything was included from the time we stepped foot in the airport here to when we returned to that airport.

you cant really compare a THREE WEEK CRUISE vs a single week in a park area.

 

[Jennifer66]

I've been to Europe 3x, Africa once, all the major theme parks in America (Disney, Universal, Six Flags, Cedar Fair, Herschend, and the independent/family ones), as well as most of the famous national parks in the country. In terms of tourist destinations I still think Disney by far "ran the best" out of all of them. To be honest I even loved going to the Disneyland in Paris because even though it is clearly not as well ran as the American parks, the place is still much cleaner/friendlier/better operated than anywhere else I went in France.

While everyone is certainly entitled to his/her own opinion, I find it sad beyond belief that you liked DLP better than "anywhere else" in France. France is not my favorite country, but I still loved strolling the streets in Paris, visiting the beautiful chateaus in the countryside, hanging on the beach at Cannes, etc. not to even mention the incredible museums, food, wine, etcetera. I understand not everyone can afford international travel (we are middle class), but I believe everyone that frequents Disney regularly and stays on property could fairly easily. Unless of course you enjoy Epcot more than the real thing...

 

[zweltar]

I'm sorry sir, but you just can't argue with the market.

Yeah, what he said. The market is never wrong. Forget all the Americans out there who lost jobs and houses because the market is based on a bunch of complete $@;&$-). Those poor schmucks just didn't know what they were doing with their money.