The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[crispy]

Let's summarize reality:

• Disney is coasting on nostalgia without actually investing in WDW, beyond disappointing additions and necessary infrastructure upgrades. Those disappointments include FLE, with its bad forced perspective and lackluster rides; Pandora, which will be gorgeous but is based on a concept few people care about; and DVC villas, which would be great if Disney gave us a reason to return to the parks. A refreshed parade and hub expansion don't count for much when Epcot and DHS are shadows of their former glory.

• Epcot is stale, and shoehorning Frozen into an environment where it doesn't fit won't fix Future World or the open-air nightclub that was once called World Showcase. But look! A paint store puked all over Innoventions.

• The most obvious expansion still hasn't happened at DHS, and the park's centerpiece remains a plastic hat that sells pieces of tin.

• Disney Springs is coming. Hooray?

• TDO is trapped by its multi-billion dollar investment into MM+, a program specifically designed to rip money from you and move you around the theme parks without having to actually invest in new things to do.

• The resorts are grossly overpriced by any standard.

• The old mentality that WDW is a showcase for future technology and improving the world—indeed, the idea that Disney should do amazing things simply because it CAN—is dead. Look at the bus routes and broken monorails as examples.

• The WDC itself has become a collection of franchises that don't relate to one another and replace creativity with products.

• Artistic integrity, the joy of filmmaking, and the magic of theme parks are dead at the WDC.

• Despite the problems, the company makes money hand over fist. The Disney Channel is some of the worst tripe on TV, but it controls the tween market. "Frozen" was a moderately decent movie hailed as the Second Coming of Walt. Marvel movies are essentially mechanized products with a known sex offender directing the most glossy productions. ABC is an albatross that nevertheless makes money.

• It all makes money.

• Lots of money.

• Iger is named Best CEO and our complaints on a message board don't matter.

• Our opinions are, nevertheless, right.

Only quoting because I couldn't like it more than once and this just needs to be read. Well said!

 

[PeterAlt]

On one hand, I really don't want Disney to Goof (get it... Goof... As in Goofy... Nevermind) like this and let the competition catch up. On the other hand, maybe the competition has to catch up in order to scare the jarjarbinks out of them and take action. If it's the later, a I just hope it won't be too late at that point to do anything...

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

Yes, but you're still going to WDW aren't you? Until that stops, WDW will still be the big wheel on the block.


I don't think that the teens and young adults have ever been what was drawing folks to WDW. When you have a family, you go where the demand is. The younger ones will outweigh the influence of the older ones, especially if the older ones have already been there. The idea that MK is for kids is, of course, still a concern, but, it always has been. Once many people, myself included, brought my kids to WDW, I was hooked as well because then I knew it wasn't just for kids. Universal may very well be exactly what is needed for the adults or adult couples with no children that haven't ever experienced WDW, but that is the way it has been since Uni was first built and especially after IOA was built.

I think that there is a real possibility that one can way underestimate the power and hold of the "Brand Loyalty". This is especially true of a Disney Park. It promises many things and, whether we care to admit it or not, still delivers on many, many of those promises.

Remember I have been a visitor to WDW regularly since 1983. My children have long since grown up and have children of their own. I am still drawn back to the place and my eyes have not gotten completely filled in with pixie dust. They are wide open and I do see the REAL differences between then and now and it isn't what people seem to think it is. I'm also getting older and may or may not be able to go many more times, but, I still do, just like I did when Uni first opened up, share my vacation time between Disney and Uni, as well as Seaworld and a multitude of other places in central Florida. I have no interest in HP at all other then the fact that I would like to see it so I can have a real opinion. I also have 3 grandchildren between the ages of 12 and 14 and absolutely none of them have any interest at all in HP. HP isn't going away, but, like everything else, new things show up and people look in different directions. Uni seems to have a strong edge right now, but, will it stay that way? If history means anything, not to the degree it is right now.

BTW, in the event that people are scratching their heads and wondering exactly what this has to do with DVC's, it is exactly why they are still and will remain a source of revenue to Disney even if they never set foot in a Disney park.

Sure, I'm still going there. BUT I don't go there nearly as often anymore. Now the visits are 7 plus years apart or more. In fact, we haven't even talked about going back. So Disney does lose any way you cut it. That said, your point is well made. There are probably a thousand folks who have never been for every one that has I would assume.

 

[WDW1974]

Please, let's try and keep to the main topics and not veer off into tangents on things we're already discussing in countless other threads. It makes it easier on me, you and the mods ... so far, largely so good. But it's a hot, sticky Friday night and folks sometimes post whatever is on their minds just for the hell of it. Let's not.

 

[PeterAlt]

I am not sure how to respond since you didn't right the post I quoted so....

What do you mean? I may have missed something. If so, please be patient with me and point out specifically what you are talking about. Thanks!

 

[WDW1974]

One quick note to my good friend Karl Holz, I'm sure you've been informed of the thread now by my watchers at CP and TDO and the news that is out there. Don't worry, I'm sure you can still guilt folks into buying DVC at Aulani and Grand Flo and Poly ... by telling them there's no better time and that this won't last ... I am sure no one will hold back buying since you're about to flood the market and at other resorts that folks long thought were sold out or available only on the resale market.

It's OK, I still remember the great deal of respect you showed me while shouting like a mad man into the phone on our London conference call. And the way you treated those important to me when you were bungling the Shanghai delegation's visit to DLP.

The business plan you have sucks for everyone who isn't a high level exec beyond the next five or so years. But who cares, right? You've got millions of dollars in stock to keep you warm at night. And you and Bob Iger and George Kalogridis and Meg Crofton and a host of 'names' are not going to be at the company when your arrogance and avarice truly comes home to roost. Congrats! You Win!!!

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

One quick note to my good friend Karl Holz, I'm sure you've been informed of the thread now by my watchers at CP and TDO and the news that is out there. Don't worry, I'm sure you can still guilt folks into buying DVC at Aulani and Grand Flo and Poly ... by telling them there's no better time and that this won't last ... I am sure no one will hold back buying since you're about to flood the market and at other resorts that folks long thought were sold out or available only on the resale market.

It's OK, I still remember the great deal of respect you showed me while shouting like a mad man into the phone on our London conference call. And the way you treated those important to me when you were bungling the Shanghai delegation's visit to DLP.

The business plan you have sucks for everyone who isn't a high level exec beyond the next five or so years. But who cares, right? You've got millions of dollars in stock to keep you warm at night. And you and Bob Iger and George Kalogridis and Meg Crofton and a host of 'names' are not going to be at the company when your arrogance and avarice truly comes home to roost. Congrats! You Win!!!

Zing!

I still blame Meg.

But wait haven't we seen a scenario before where people thought something sold out but suddenly there were tons of it on the market and then...waitaminute, what happened after that?

Something smells and it's not me....I just reapplied my deodorant.

 

[Nemo14]

One quick note to my good friend Karl Holz, I'm sure you've been informed of the thread now by my watchers at CP and TDO and the news that is out there. Don't worry, I'm sure you can still guilt folks into buying DVC at Aulani and Grand Flo and Poly ... by telling them there's no better time and that this won't last ... I am sure no one will hold back buying since you're about to flood the market and at other resorts that folks long thought were sold out or available only on the resale market.

It's OK, I still remember the great deal of respect you showed me while shouting like a mad man into the phone on our London conference call. And the way you treated those important to me when you were bungling the Shanghai delegation's visit to DLP.

The business plan you have sucks for everyone who isn't a high level exec beyond the next five or so years. But who cares, right? You've got millions of dollars in stock to keep you warm at night. And you and Bob Iger and George Kalogridis and Meg Crofton and a host of 'names' are not going to be at the company when your arrogance and avarice truly comes home to roost. Congrats! You Win!!!

I have no idea what you're talking about, but I love it!

 

[WDW1974]

Maybe some of this varies. In November of last year we were staying at the CBR for a couple nights (gift of my folks while I ran the 1/2 marathon with my father). We were moving to an offsite time share that day, so we checked out in the morning and left for the parks.
That evening my youngest child got sick driving out of the parks and when we got to the timeshare, we couldn't get in touch with the family we were sharing the room with, and with a sick kid I decided not to mess with all the crap going on. I drove back to CBR, told the guard I was going to get a room, drove to the front desk, and a CM had me in a new room (at rack rate sure) in less than 5 minutes.
Maybe it's because I didn't care at that moment to try and get a discounted rate. I just wanted a room so I could get the puking kid to Urgent Care and get some Zofran to stop said puking.

I am sure that having a sick child helped your case. But I am also confident that others in similar situations likely had to jump thru more hoops or were treated less respectfully.

The system isn't set up for the front desks to be able to do much (at least as far as I know with LILO, that could have changed a bit with NGE integration).

It's sort of how for years you'd just hand over your DDE card for 20% discount (that was what Tables in Wonderland was known as until 3-4 years ago) and your server just ran it. Now, they are so afraid of CMs giving discounts that folks are not entitled to that you'll often sit for 15-20 minutes while your server gets a manager to approve your discount.

They don't want front line folks being able to make decisions that aid a guest largely beyond handing out stickers or even a free plush to a child having a rough day.

You hear about companies looking at every penny? Disney is one of the companies that literally looks at fractions of pennies.

 

[WDW1974]

I know Spirit said he saw the tepees and I usually trust him, but that has to be wrong. Maybe just a bad piece of concept art. I could see something along the lines of a "fishing hut" or maybe a version of the Poly huts, but how does a tepee even work over the water? It's about the worst idea I have heard.

If they are going to do this they should at least pimp out the WL pool. Lazy river, crazy cool slide, the works. Get something positive out of it for resort guests.

It's not a great idea, but it honestly isn't as bad as some folks make it out to be. Right now, that is the plan. It is possible they'll change it. But they do 'fit' the theme and, unlike what some folks feel, are not politically incorrect in any way.

I hesitated to put that piece of info out there, I admit. But it was the 'what the blank?!?!' moment for me when I saw it. And if emotion drives people to read and discuss the larger points, then debating teepees isn't a bad thing.

 

[Mike S]

One quick note to my good friend Karl Holz, I'm sure you've been informed of the thread now by my watchers at CP and TDO and the news that is out there. Don't worry, I'm sure you can still guilt folks into buying DVC at Aulani and Grand Flo and Poly ... by telling them there's no better time and that this won't last ... I am sure no one will hold back buying since you're about to flood the market and at other resorts that folks long thought were sold out or available only on the resale market.

It's OK, I still remember the great deal of respect you showed me while shouting like a mad man into the phone on our London conference call. And the way you treated those important to me when you were bungling the Shanghai delegation's visit to DLP.

The business plan you have sucks for everyone who isn't a high level exec beyond the next five or so years. But who cares, right? You've got millions of dollars in stock to keep you warm at night. And you and Bob Iger and George Kalogridis and Meg Crofton and a host of 'names' are not going to be at the company when your arrogance and avarice truly comes home to roost. Congrats! You Win!!!

 

[RSoxNo1]

It's not a great idea, but it honestly isn't as bad as some folks make it out to be. Right now, that is the plan. It is possible they'll change it. But they do 'fit' the theme and, unlike what some folks feel, are not politically incorrect in any way.

I hesitated to put that piece of info out there, I admit. But it was the 'what the blank?!?!' moment for me when I saw it. And if emotion drives people to read and discuss the larger points, then debating teepees isn't a bad thing.

I'm sorry, but we as a culture cannot talk civily about any aspect of another culture for fear of being racist. We can't mention the there are some people in this world that speak Spanish because even mentioning another language is now racist.

 

[WDW1974]

They simply did/do not see UNI as a real threat? Arrogance? complacency? All of the above?

OPINION time because, frankly, only Bob, Tom, Jay, Meg and even lowly retail Georgie K know what they feel or think.

That said, I think it's a combo deal of the following:

1.) We are Walt Freaking Disney World. We have always been No. 1 and we always will be No. 1 (I won't point out in this thread how many great name in American business and industry thought this way and are either history or shells of what they once were);

2.) We have those 25,000-plus hotels and timeshare captive guests;

3.) The more people who come to O-Town, the better it is for all of us;

4.) We can use schemes like DDP/DME and, now, MM+ to keep guests on property;

5.) No one can market style and nostalgia over substance like we can.

Add those all up and I think you have why Disney feels and reacts the way it does.

 

[GoofGoof]

It's not a great idea, but it honestly isn't as bad as some folks make it out to be. Right now, that is the plan. It is possible they'll change it. But they do 'fit' the theme and, unlike what some folks feel, are not politically incorrect in any way.

I hesitated to put that piece of info out there, I admit. But it was the 'what the blank?!?!' moment for me when I saw it. And if emotion drives people to read and discuss the larger points, then debating teepees isn't a bad thing.

Since we're talkin tepees, where they actual tepees (like tents) on platforms over the water or more huts with teepee looking tops. I'm still struggling with the look.

Aside from the look, the water area down by the dock at WL is particularly buggy and swampy. Could be more problematic than the Poly location.

 

[crispy]

It's not a great idea, but it honestly isn't as bad as some folks make it out to be. Right now, that is the plan. It is possible they'll change it. But they do 'fit' the theme and, unlike what some folks feel, are not politically incorrect in any way.

I hesitated to put that piece of info out there, I admit. But it was the 'what the blank?!?!' moment for me when I saw it. And if emotion drives people to read and discuss the larger points, then debating teepees isn't a bad thing.

I think it's the idea of teepees on the water more than the teepees themselves. That just seems completely out of place.

(Or what GoofGoof said)

 

[rael ramone]

One quick note to my good friend Karl Holz, I'm sure you've been informed of the thread now by my watchers at CP and TDO and the news that is out there. Don't worry, I'm sure you can still guilt folks into buying DVC at Aulani and Grand Flo and Poly ... by telling them there's no better time and that this won't last ... I am sure no one will hold back buying since you're about to flood the market and at other resorts that folks long thought were sold out or available only on the resale market.

It's OK, I still remember the great deal of respect you showed me while shouting like a mad man into the phone on our London conference call. And the way you treated those important to me when you were bungling the Shanghai delegation's visit to DLP.

The business plan you have sucks for everyone who isn't a high level exec beyond the next five or so years. But who cares, right? You've got millions of dollars in stock to keep you warm at night. And you and Bob Iger and George Kalogridis and Meg Crofton and a host of 'names' are not going to be at the company when your arrogance and avarice truly comes home to roost. Congrats! You Win!!!

I bet he was hoping that the upcoming DVC flood would be 'Disney's Best Kept Secret'....

 

[rael ramone]

Since we're talkin tepees, where they actual tepees (like tents) on platforms over the water or more huts with teepee looking tops. I'm still struggling with the look.

Aside from the look, the water area down by the dock at WL is particularly buggy and swampy. Could be more problematic than the Poly location.

Imagine waking up to an alligator sunning himself right outside your door....

 

[WDW1974]

I think most of us have an irrational attachment to the Disney brand, but there isn't anything wrong with that. Rationality is objective and devoid of emotion, and for a lot of us, vacation time is inherently the opposite. We don't need the best, but we want something that strikes a chord with us and creates memories that'll be meaningful later on. For some people, a trip to the beach does the same thing. For others, it's Disney. Other people need to stay at a Four Seasons/Ritz, and even those are too "chainlike" for people seeking true exclusivity.

That said, Disney knows how to capitalize on this irrationality. Their marketing recycles the same buzzwords each year ("Celebrate memories of magical dreams, wishes, and fantasy. Disney Parks!"), and those buzzwords are reinforced everywhere at the parks and resorts. But it's not just the marketing - the product itself does have redeeming qualities, and there's a reason why people become attached to places like Polynesian, Wilderness Lodge, the Boardwalk, etc.

If Disney could price their resorts fairly and cool it with the timeshares (or at least make more considerate design decisions), we'd be having a different discussion. But the current business model shows no signs of going away, so people will have to accept it (even begrudgingly) or move on. The latter might be impossible for many of us - that's why we're here.

Absolutely true. It is about buzzwords ... do dreams, wishes and MAGIC ring a bell? Now, it's all about nostalgia as well. Not the nostalgia of bygone days and foreign worlds and fantasy realms. No, it's remember how in 2004 you brought Uncle Frank, who was stage 4 at the time to WDW for 11 days at the Beach Club? Remember how Goofy played with him and your twins at Cape May? Remember, the stories he told about his young days traveling to France while you dined at Chefs de France? Remember how he yelled with delight while riding Big Thunder? ... and Remember how he dropped dead horrifically just eight months later? Well, that memory of him is alive and well in the swamps. It will be even more alive if you buy $30,000 worth of DVC points to make more memories with your family before someone else is gone (and really ... have you looked at Aunt Ruth lately? she smokes a pack a day and coughs up pieces of her lungs and at 74, really is she going to be around when the twins get married?)

Yes, an exaggeration. But not much. Disney is all about toying with emotions. Indeed, that's the thing they have excelled at from Walt's days to now. And that is what you don't get at UNI or anywhere else.

 

[Nemo14]

I think it's the idea of teepees on the water more than the teepees themselves. That just seems completely out of place.

(Or what GoofGoof said)

Teepees themselves make me shudder, but teepees on the water?

 

[WDW1974]

This company...... Man. It's just all about the money. Reflection of modern business today, how much can you screw your customers, screw your employees and milk it for every dollar possible.

That's CEO of the year material....

Well, just added a 35th like to the post, even though I hate what you are saying. I just know it to be true.

A teflon, soulless cretin like Bob Iger is exactly CEO of the Year material to Wall Street because Wall Street is all about today and tomorrow, not next month, next year or a decade from now.

I am a capitalist through and through, but what we have today is in no way the system that I grew up admiring. It's some horrible bizarro bastardized version where only the top of the top benefits (and breaks and makes laws all the way to do so!)