The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Well, just added a 35th like to the post, even though I hate what you are saying. I just know it to be true.

A teflon, soulless cretin like Bob Iger is exactly CEO of the Year material to Wall Street because Wall Street is all about today and tomorrow, not next month, next year or a decade from now.

I am a capitalist through and through, but what we have today is in no way the system that I grew up admiring. It's some horrible bizarro bastardized version where only the top of the top benefits (and breaks and makes laws all the way to do so!)


I hate it too. I hate saying it. I hate knowing that saying it will not mean anything because I don't happen to have $200 billion sitting around.

So this is what happens when you have a creative company run by a bunch of accountants?
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Call me naive, but if you are disgruntled DVC owner, isn't the easy answer to sell? It seems like DVC still has pretty good resale value, right?

Of course it is, much easier that complaining to the company that the EPCOT of 2014 is exactly the same as the the EPCOT of 2008 and very similar to the EPCOT of 2004.

Indeed, I looked into buying points about three years ago when you could pick up resales at Vero Beach and OKW for as little as $35-45 a point.

Plenty of people dump it (look at other timeshares in the O-Town market and there are people at very nice places like Starwood's Sheraton Vistana looking to dump deeded weeks a year for ONE DOLLAR so long as you buy it and deal with dues).

How many points at DVC go back on the market isn't something I am aware of, but it is a significant number.
 

crispy

Well-Known Member
Teepee/yurts seem to be kind of trendy right now. Google "glamping" (that term makes me shudder) and all these fancy yurts and teepees pop up. I suppose that's what they are going for. It still doesn't make sense to put them over water.
 

Funmeister

Well-Known Member
So, why not make a stand? If MiceAge could do it from a "park quality" perspective in the 90's an 2000's then why not create a new platform keeping corporate Disney in check? Make it more public. More facts and less "searching for secret monorail pylons." (with all due respect)

It would not take any extra effort than what is already spent on these forum posts.

Why not?
@WDW1974
@PhotoDave219
 

stlphil

Well-Known Member
It's not a great idea, but it honestly isn't as bad as some folks make it out to be. Right now, that is the plan. It is possible they'll change it. But they do 'fit' the theme and, unlike what some folks feel, are not politically incorrect in any way.

I hesitated to put that piece of info out there, I admit. But it was the 'what the blank?!?!' moment for me when I saw it. And if emotion drives people to read and discuss the larger points, then debating teepees isn't a bad thing.
It's funny but for me the idea of the tepees is so deliciously bad that that's what convinced me the story has to be true- you can't just make up something like that.

Because while over-water huts at Poly may conjure up images of Bora Bora, teepees at WL just conjure up images of old kitschy motels along Route 66. And it wouldn't even be a Disney original since they already built the Cozy Cone Motel at DCA.
 

Quinnmac000

Well-Known Member
Teepee/yurts seem to be kind of trendy right now. Google "glamping" and all these fancy yurts and teepees pop up. I suppose that's what they are going for. It still doesn't make sense to put them over water.

Carpeting was in at one time along with Jorks (jean shorts for males), doesn't mean they should come back or be attempted ever again. Teepees is one thing that need to stay in the past or in the backyards for kids. Wigwams are okay though.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Any insight @WDW1974 on what it would/will take for the pendulum to begin swinging back the other way? If ever?

New management from the top of the company down.

For all the Michael Eisner bashers out there, you do realize that Bob Iger has kept and promoted many of his worst execs, right?

I would love to see new blood from outside what has become a cancerous Disney culture.

No one even knows what Disney is anymore. Is it EPCOT or ESPN? Is is Mickey or Marvel? Is it Jar Jar or Frontierland? What is Disney? Just a jumble of BRANDS, many that don't fit together?
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Not to get too off-topic, but if you think maintenance at the WDW resorts has gotten bad, you need to check out Disneyland Paris. This was the exterior of the Newport Bay Club (a Yacht & Beach Club lookalike) just last week.

DSC_0949_zpsd2acd387.jpg


In comparison, I'd say maintenance of the WDW resorts is much more consistent. It's the parks (and the overarching business strategy) that need some changes...

I'd rather discuss this elsewhere, but the hotel is literally being rebuilt as we speak. Half of it is closed and ALL of the wood siding is being replaced. But that has nothing at all to do with anything we are talking about here ... place it on Seventh Heaven and I'll be glad to discuss it.
 

crispy

Well-Known Member
Carpeting was in at one time along with Jorks (jean shorts for males), doesn't mean they should come back or be attempted ever again. Teepees is one thing that need to stay in the past or in the backyards for kids. Wigwams are okay though.

They're jorts, and they were never trendy. Misguided people (who also had mullets) just thought they were. j/k :p

I am not saying I want to sleep in a mosquito infested teepee, I am just saying it's a trendy thing right now. We actually have a Wigwam Village about an 1 1/2 from my house, and I would love to stay there once for fun except the reviews are pretty horrible. They do, however, sell unique Wigwam Village T-shirts and coffee mugs (hear that, TDO?).
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
WDW of course puts nothing on the fast track ever... but isn't Avatar what they decided to do about it? After all the Spring 2011 negotiations and Fall 2011 announcement dates fall in this timeframe when they would have been made aware of the Diagon Alley plans. In fact, it's probably what forced the seemingly misguided move of Avatar.

It wasn't the right move, or remotely close to the best move, but that was their "move".

Avatar was Bob's pouting response to losing Potter and IOA's first phase being such an amazing success. It wasn't aimed at the future. It was reactionary in nature, even though Potter 2.0 was getting final sign-offs during that time.

Honestly, and Disney fanbois don't want to hear it, but the real Potter Swatter ... the 2.0 Swatter anyway ... was always NGE. It was always about squeezing more out of existing visitors rather than attracting new ones and growing the base by adding compelling reasons to visit WDW.

The UNI fanbois have kewl interactive wands (I will be buying one on my next visit!) and the Disney fanbois have MAGIC Bands. That's about what it comes down to.
 

danv3

Well-Known Member
One quick note to my good friend Karl Holz, I'm sure you've been informed of the thread now by my watchers at CP and TDO and the news that is out there. Don't worry, I'm sure you can still guilt folks into buying DVC at Aulani and Grand Flo and Poly ... by telling them there's no better time and that this won't last ... I am sure no one will hold back buying since you're about to flood the market and at other resorts that folks long thought were sold out or available only on the resale market.

It's OK, I still remember the great deal of respect you showed me while shouting like a mad man into the phone on our London conference call. And the way you treated those important to me when you were bungling the Shanghai delegation's visit to DLP.

The business plan you have sucks for everyone who isn't a high level exec beyond the next five or so years. But who cares, right? You've got millions of dollars in stock to keep you warm at night. And you and Bob Iger and George Kalogridis and Meg Crofton and a host of 'names' are not going to be at the company when your arrogance and avarice truly comes home to roost. Congrats! You Win!!!

Outstanding. :greedy:
 

rael ramone

Well-Known Member
Of course it is, much easier that complaining to the company that the EPCOT of 2014 is exactly the same as the the EPCOT of 2008 and very similar to the EPCOT of 2004.

Indeed, I looked into buying points about three years ago when you could pick up resales at Vero Beach and OKW for as little as $35-45 a point.

Plenty of people dump it (look at other timeshares in the O-Town market and there are people at very nice places like Starwood's Sheraton Vistana looking to dump deeded weeks a year for ONE DOLLAR so long as you buy it and deal with dues).

How many points at DVC go back on the market isn't something I am aware of, but it is a significant number.

The combo of TDO flooding the market w/ new DVCs and all those old points that people are trying to unload could potentially create an avalanche of cheap points to be had.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
OPINION time because, frankly, only Bob, Tom, Jay, Meg and even lowly retail Georgie K know what they feel or think.

That said, I think it's a combo deal of the following:

1.) We are Walt Freaking Disney World. We have always been No. 1 and we always will be No. 1 (I won't point out in this thread how many great name in American business and industry thought this way and are either history or shells of what they once were);

2.) We have those 25,000-plus hotels and timeshare captive guests;

3.) The more people who come to O-Town, the better it is for all of us;

4.) We can use schemes like DDP/DME and, now, MM+ to keep guests on property;

5.) No one can market style and nostalgia over substance like we can.

Add those all up and I think you have why Disney feels and reacts the way it does.
Ok, let's assume that the ruse behind MM+ is a means of keeping guests on property. Comparatively, since the Next Gen project began, Universal has spent their money refreshing their parks with new marquee attractions and upgrades. This brings me to my upcoming trip where I am staying offsite, except for two days at Lowe's Royal Pacific. I let my $950+ Premier Annual pass expire in January and I'm looking at a length of stay park hopper for September because we don't know that we'll be returning to Florida within a year. Between the hotel and park tickets, it's conceivable that Universal will be getting anywhere between 40-60% of the money we spend at theme parks on our upcoming trip. This is while we will likely be spending 7 days at Disney and 2 days at Universal. Simply put, the perks of staying on site at Universal, as well as the relative cost are more favorable.

This goes into what it would take for Disney to get more people to stay on site. Beyond the simple answer of reducing the price, they need to offer more. Increasing Extra Magic Hours would help. Improving attraction access in the form of additional Fastpass+ reservations would also help, however the number of attractions vs. existing hotel rooms doesn't make this as feasible without significantly hurting the value for non-resort guests.

According to TouringPlans.com there are 30,405 hotel rooms at Disney World.
I come up with 4200 hotel rooms at Universal (Portifino-750, Royal Pacific-1000, Hard Rock-650, Cabana Bay-1800).

Currently there are 64 Fastpass+ attractions at Disney World. Prior to the Fantasyland expansion there were 23 Fastpass attractions in Disney World. Currently, Universal has 32 attractions with Express Pass.
I would argue that Universal's employment of Express pass is as liberal as Fastpass+ (meaning they put it where it doesn't belong).

It's not an exact science, but in order for Disney to give resort guests the same "Unlimited access" perk given to Universal guests, they would have to add 168 more Fastpass+ attractions to Walt Disney World. We know full well that's not going to happen. However, in order to fully take advantage of Fastpass+, the attraction lineup still needs to increase quickly. Even with an increased roster of attractions, the issue of education still remains with Fastpass+. Express Pass is access that doesn't require a reservation. You show up, you get in a shorter line. Variants of Fastpass+ could include the following:
  • Elimination or addition of tiers of attractions
  • Increased Fastpass+ access based on hotel price point
  • Increased lead time for when Fastpass+ reservations can be made
All of those further complicate the benefit. Here's a much simpler solution that will require building additional attractions, but eliminate the confusion of the ever evolving system.
  • Return to previous Fastpass rules and distribution. Same day only for all guests. 40-120 minutes between when a guest can acquire an additional Fastpass depending on popularity. Utilize the new infrastructure and it's an advantage over the previous system.
  • Give DVC and deluxe guests 2 any time/any attraction access FP per day
  • Give moderate resort guests 1 any time/any attraction access FP per day
  • All resort guests get access to morning or evening extra magic hours. EMH increased to at least 1 morning or 1 evening per day.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
What everybody seems to miss on the Deluxe price increases is that Disney has to keep dramatically increasing hotel prices, so that they can dramatically increase DVC prices and yet still try and make it look like a good deal by comparison in the sales pitch.

The business model is do everything possible to jack up revenue from the cash-cow DVC, and if they can also get people to pay more for regular hotel stays, that is gravy.

Very true. I don't know what these execs refuse to acknowledge is a faulty model. From 1990-2000, I probably spent the equivalent of 4-5 weeks a year at WDW resorts. In 2014? Not a single night. In 2013, 12 nights all on DVC points that I didn't pay for.

I'm a Faux Top One Percenter and they've priced me right out of the market except for 50-60% cast discounts and I've frankly found I'd rather stay at UNI resorts on TM rates or just Priceline a 4-star hotel. It's so nice to not check out and see a multi-thousand dollar balance (or at least over $1,000) headed to my AmEx card.

But had Disney not gotten insane with pricing, they'd likely still have had me. They lost me and I don't see them ever getting me back, at least not close to what I once was for them (a whale).
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Avatar was Bob's pouting response to losing Potter and IOA's first phase being such an amazing success. It wasn't aimed at the future. It was reactionary in nature, even though Potter 2.0 was getting final sign-offs during that time.

Honestly, and Disney fanbois don't want to hear it, but the real Potter Swatter ... the 2.0 Swatter anyway ... was always NGE. It was always about squeezing more out of existing visitors rather than attracting new ones and growing the base by adding compelling reasons to visit WDW.

The UNI fanbois have kewl interactive wands (I will be buying one on my next visit!) and the Disney fanbois have MAGIC Bands. That's about what it comes down to.

Which reinforces the concept that TWDC is only concerned with revenue.

It's not that it's simply a metric. It's the only metric that matters.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Avatar was Bob's pouting response to losing Potter and IOA's first phase being such an amazing success. It wasn't aimed at the future. It was reactionary in nature, even though Potter 2.0 was getting final sign-offs during that time.

Honestly, and Disney fanbois don't want to hear it, but the real Potter Swatter ... the 2.0 Swatter anyway ... was always NGE. It was always about squeezing more out of existing visitors rather than attracting new ones and growing the base by adding compelling reasons to visit WDW.

The UNI fanbois have kewl interactive wands (I will be buying one on my next visit!) and the Disney fanbois have MAGIC Bands. That's about what it comes down to.
You're kidding, right? That's just........... I really have no words for this. How could they be so clueless..........?
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
Avatar was Bob's pouting response to losing Potter and IOA's first phase being such an amazing success. It wasn't aimed at the future. It was reactionary in nature, even though Potter 2.0 was getting final sign-offs during that time.

Honestly, and Disney fanbois don't want to hear it, but the real Potter Swatter ... the 2.0 Swatter anyway ... was always NGE. It was always about squeezing more out of existing visitors rather than attracting new ones and growing the base by adding compelling reasons to visit WDW.

The UNI fanbois have kewl interactive wands (I will be buying one on my next visit!) and the Disney fanbois have MAGIC Bands. That's about what it comes down to.
At the risk of being repetitive....Oy.
 

Tigger1988

Well-Known Member
So, why not make a stand? If MiceAge could do it from a "park quality" perspective in the 90's an 2000's then why not create a new platform keeping corporate Disney in check? Make it more public. More facts and less "searching for secret monorail pylons." (with all due respect)

It would not take any extra effort than what is already spent on these forum posts.

Why not?
@WDW1974
@PhotoDave219
Someone on this forum tries this every year and it always fails.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Interesting rumours, @WDW1974. Not surprising though, considering that GFV and the Villas at the Poly are rather small resort, I was thinking that they must have plans on where to move next. They are just far too addicted to that quick DVC money...

As to the question of who buys into DVC at those prices: People who believe that they are creating wonderful memories for their families. I made the mistake on my last cruise to go and listen to one of those DVC presentations they do there nearly every day. It made me feel dirty. I had always been told that DVC was kind of the "nice timeshare people", no hard sales tactics etc. Well, the soft ones they applied where bad enough. Trying to guilt you into making a quick decision while on the ship because if you take everything home with you, you will just not get around to get it organised and then the prices might have gone up when you think about it next time...

And the sales argument wasn't even that you were saving money by buying DVC (I guess they have figured out that this is not really true, unless you really stay at a Deluxe resort at rack rate every time). No, it was about locking in future vacation memories. Because with DVC you have committed to go there, now you will make sure to have a wonderful vacation with your family every year... More kind of the convenience of overpaying like for the DDP which more or less stopped saving you any real money several years ago.

I stated that I had a similar experience on my Panama Canal cruise. I found Disney's sales tactics to be manipulative and disgusting. It was all about the value people put on making memories with their families and if they truly cared they'd make a deal when onboard ... Disney would even take credit. Imagine that?

If one DVCer tells me that Disney isn't as bad as the 'others', then I think you might see a Spirited online explosion.

No, Disney doesn't pressure you like the others. They use emotions and love of family to coerce people into buying immediately. They coif the entire sales production with happy buzzwords, but at the end of the day they are like an Imagineer trying to talk a fanboi into doing something he isn't sure of. I felt dirty and the free booze didn't loosen me (or my purse strings) up!
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
The combo of TDO flooding the market w/ new DVCs and all those old points that people are trying to unload could potentially create an avalanche of cheap points to be had.
It could happen, but it's no guarantee. In the past 3 years or so the resale prices have gone up not down and that is with finishing selling new points at BLT, SSR, AKV and VGF. The incredible price increases direct from Disney combined with a less desperate economy are probably the biggest drivers. There was a downward trend when the economy tanked and people weren't traveling as much. The economy is likely going to be a bigger driver of future DVC resale prices than increased supply.
 

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