The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

omurice

Well-Known Member
This mistake will not be easily fixable in the event the DVC bubble bursts post hotel conversions.
What's to fix? Studios are basically size of normal rooms, some are smaller in fact. A lot of the studios and 1BR are already just lock-offs that make up a 2BR. CRO can charge a lot more for 1 and 2 bedroom suites with a full kitchen and in-room laundry (HINT: they do that now). They win either way, if they can fill the room.

They can get over $450 for a 1BR DVC unit with a kitchen and laundry, or over $600 for a 2BR unit on the cash market. That's at the "cheapest" deluxe like Saratoga or AKL. Not saying they have 100% occupancy, but they do rent these DVC rooms out as cash rooms all the time. They even rent the "Grand Villas" out for cash... but you could stay in a suite at the Waldorf for less, or (probably) get a suite at the new 4 Seasons for same.

Personally, if I need bigger than a regular room or Studio, or just have to have that kitchen/laundry, I'd rather go off property. You can get a 1BR or 2BR condo style unit at Sheraton Vistana or one of the Wyndham places for example, far less than half the cost of a DVC-for-cash villa room.
 
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stlphil

Well-Known Member
My point was that the Creatives can still innovate and create. It's all the external factors beyond them that's the problem.

I read your comment to mean that they just didn't have the ability anymore. It's there, it's just bottled up.
Yes, actually I totally agree with this. My initial post was just proposing one possible reason why this may be the case.

And I can see where the ambiguity came from, my not being clear just who the "they" I was referring to was.
 

FigmentFreak

Well-Known Member
Hooray! I love this too. And the pass out areas themed like asphalt underneath Off Kilter viewing benches!

Hey, I wasn't passed out. I was getting a better view of the underside theming of the benches.

I want to enjoy the theming before they add them to FastPass+.
Think how great that will be during Food & Drunk festival.
Reserve a place to passout at Epcot while you're still sober.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I know it's just semantics, but in my mind a lack of confidence and overarching risk aversion are just two sides of the same thing.

You can know you are good.. And still be afraid to take a chance. I think Disney p&r is systematically against over reaching or anything that can be perceived as taking that chance. Hence we get the stagnation (why change when this already works?), the safe m&g, the modest rollout of lands, etc. they play it ultra safe and as slow as possible because why rock the boat...

Coming off carsland they KNOW the can hit the home run - they just aren't really committed that it's needed.
 

Buried20KLeague

Well-Known Member
Here is how I see it with my rose colored glasses. :cool: Disney Springs will move DVC memberships at SSR. Pandora and other adds coming to DAK will move DVC memberships at the AKL. Proving that adding content to the resorts has wide-ranging economic benefits. The ultimate win-win. I just have more faith in people than many here. I just don't think there is some grand conspiritorial money grab going on. If there was there would not be construction going on every where you look. OBJ even had an article documenting all the progress. :geek:



... And the cutback on the Space Mountain refurb was because they were infusing the money into the New Fantasyland, right jt? ;)

Look, I can appreciate that you're trying to keep an upbeat view. But I also think it's simplistic and naive.

- Disney Springs isn't being built to help sell what small amount of points might still be available at SSR. It's being built because they wanted to create their own version of CityWalk that would be attractive enough to 3rd parties to lease there so they can take a cut without having to own and operate the places themselves.

- Pandora isn't being built to help sell what small amount of point might still be available at Kidani. It's being built as a knee-jerk reaction to the Boy Wonder, and because it's a well known and universal (ha) fact that capacity at the park is a problem. It's a half-day park, more so than Studios, even. It vastly underperforms compared to the other parks, and I'm quite certain it has the highest operating expense due to the animals. They had to do something. The numbers for that park have to be all kinds of backwards.

I don't think my earlier post to you is conspiratorial in even the smallest sense. It's just reality. It's not like it's some big secret. You can see proof in almost everything at WDW. You can see where they're putting their money. You can see where they're NOT putting their money. You can see the quarterly numbers. All you have to do is sit back and observe what's going on a bit, and the picture gets clear quickly.

They've been selling DVC like crazy for a long time now. If you were correct, where are those billions that they've taken in since then? Where's the new gate? If you take the list of all the park improvements from the past 10 years and the assumed cost of those additions, and divided by 10 (for a per year investment amount), I think the number would be shockingly low. Then compare that to, for example, JUST the BLT. When that was planned, I think someone here figured out what Disney was going to make after they sold all the points there, and if I recall, it was $720,000,000. Seven hundred and twenty MILLION dollars. To sell out a timeshare that no one actually OWNS any part of! And that doesn't count yearly dues and cost reductions attaching it to the Contemp gave them, or locking in a customer base to spending further vacation dollars associated with the property. That number is coming from memory, so forgive me if I'm remembering wrong. It's been years. But I really think that's right. And that's just one DVC property. One of how many they've been building? And I might add that the cost per point was lower when they put BLT up too. The margins are even higher now.

That's proof, in that single building, that my view is reality. That building is a microchosm of the issue. It's not a conspiracy... It's just a bad business practice that eventually will be a massive issue. It may not be for decades... But it WILL be a massive issue. They can still fix it, but who will? Who will be willing to turn the massive ship around, no matter how difficult and tricky it might be? Especially when that person knows they're only at the helm for a short period of time?

Walt's gone, and he's been replaced by mercenary CEO's who smile for the cameras and then retreat to their boardrooms to discuss how to keep the share price up. That's not conspiracy, that's reality. I wish it weren't. But it is.
 
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lobelia

Well-Known Member
Color me confused. Like most organizations, I imagine the DVCs and the resorts have their own line item in the overall Parks and Resorts budget. Are they required to give a portion of the income from DVC and the resorts to maintain the local infrastructure and parks? If they make more money selling DVC or filling hotels wouldn't that go back into the DVC and resort budget and not the theme parks? I'm not a fan of DVC and the resorts are alright but overpriced, but I don't feel like I can blame poor park maintenance and lack of new attractions on them changing the proportion of DVCs offered.
 

omurice

Well-Known Member
...
-Poly's new bungalows obstruct the views from existing longhouses and are being built over a murky, mosquito-infested lagoon.
..
But the ENTIRE Florida Project was built over murky, mosquito infested wetlands with alligators and snakes in the bushes so... what's new here! ;)



As long as they don't turn Fort Wilderness camp sites into timeshares I'm good.

Um, it's funny you should say that... (Sound of rustling blueprints)
 

Buried20KLeague

Well-Known Member
Sorry 'M', I appreciate the contributions you make here and you are probably the most important contribtor but using such hyperbole about Pandora and Disney Springs shows that this conversation on this subject here is not quite fair and balanced. And just like with Disney Springs, the optimists here will have their trust rewarded. :happy:


How long have you been "trusting"? What have they rewarded you with after all this time?
 

alphac2005

Well-Known Member
I'm not asking this to be flippant... It's a sincere question...

The problems in the parks were highly evident long before 3 years ago when you bought in. What are you seeing now that you didn't 3 years ago? Or is it a situation where at the time you were more new to the parks and just couldn't notice the issues? Was it an impulse buy or something (like we hear happens to SOOOOO many people)?

I'm genuinely curious.

EDIT TO ADD: Probably 12 years ago I went through the whole DVC spiel. This was when we first started vacationing at the parks a few times a year, when we started having kids. We had maybe 10 visits under our belts at the time (so it's not like we were complete rookies). We got so far as to have the paperwork sent to us and everything... But I just couldn't bring myself to make a multi-decade commitment. Thank the flying spaghetti monster I didn't sign on that dotted line. Since then, we've seen what's continued to happen at the property, and just gotten smarter in general. For example, if we had known about resale at the time, there's no way we would have even gotten as close as we did at the time.

But my point is... We were fairly familiar with the parks and so forth, and even WE almost pulled the trigger on what would have been looked at for decades as an albatross and an impulse buy. If WE almost did that... I can't think of how many thousands of others do the same thing and actually put pen to paper.

Your flying spaghetti monster reference makes your post pure awesome! :) ........and your post is excellent to boot!
 

Blueliner

Well-Known Member
Hooray! I love this too. And the pass out areas themed like asphalt underneath Off Kilter viewing benches!

Now that there's funny, I don't care who you are!

Per the topic at hand, we bought 240 BWV points on the resale market about 3 years ago for $67.00 per point, with 240 banked points included. That fit our family size (7 in all), our budget, our perception of value, and our typical travel pattern of one trip per year to WDW for about 5-6 nights. To date, I have no regrets.

On one hand, I have become increasingly disillusioned with the theme parks and infrastructure at WDW, particularly with respect to: bus transportation; the decline in table service quality; the relentless removal of little "plusses" (Four for a Dollar comes to mind for some reason); inadequate staffing in certain parks in the evening (can't get a pretzel on the Streets of America past dusk, apparently); the traffic gridlock near DTD; the increasing need for hyperplanning; and, most importantly the relative lack of new attractions that appeal to all ages. My youngest child is now nearly 7 years old. Consequently, my family enjoys and feels increasingly pulled toward the attractions at USF/IOA.

On the other hand, I still manage to have fun with my family while on property (even in the theme parks). We have absolutley loved spending more time at the water parks, where spontaneity still is permitted. We have used FP+ to make short forays into the theme parks, then escaped to the water parks, Universal, and other fun places around central Florida. Moreover, we also have used our points to stay at the Grand Californian and to book-end a Disney Cruise (at the Beach Club Villas). We currently plan to use banked/borrowed points to spend a week at Aulani this spring. We have stayed once at WLV and really liked it, so if the expansion opens up some availability there, I am okay with that.

I do think it is worth mentioning that, in furtherance of our Aulani plans, we spent a week at the Wyndham Bonnet Creek Resort this spring to save our points, and it is a nice resort. Most notably, our average cost per night for a 2 BR villa was about $125.00. That is a steal for a property smack dab in the middle of the WDW property, and I think Disney needs to be mindful of that value proposition when considering the sale of still more DVC points.
 

TeriofTerror

Well-Known Member
Sorry 'M', I appreciate the contributions you make here and you are probably the most important contribtor but using such hyperbole about Pandora and Disney Springs shows that this conversation on this subject here is not quite fair and balanced. And just like with Disney Springs, the optimists here will have their trust rewarded. :happy:
I'm truly not trying to be rude, but just how does one get elected as the arbiter of what is "fair and balanced"? And why is it that the people who are most fond of using that phrase seem to interpret "fair and balanced" as "promoting only what I believe to be true"?
Look, I'm not ashamed to admit it: I love Disney. I want to see them succeed in providing the best in themed entertainment. But if I'm not going to raise my own daughter with a "my child is the best and can do no wrong" mentality, I'm most certainly not going to cut Disney that kind of slack. Those whom we love we chasten, as needed. :)
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Color me confused. Like most organizations, I imagine the DVCs and the resorts have their own line item in the overall Parks and Resorts budget. Are they required to give a portion of the income from DVC and the resorts to maintain the local infrastructure and parks? If they make more money selling DVC or filling hotels wouldn't that go back into the DVC and resort budget and not the theme parks?

Divisions do not get to 'keep' their own monies. All money ultimately belongs to the mothership. A well performing group is more likely to get better funding based on their performance and outlook... But they don't get to keep their successes away from the parent. The finance guys will 'move' money in or out of units as the leadership dictates .

Profits from dvc operations or services sold to dvc all contribute to P&R and ultimately TWDC. Funding is based on executive decisions - not what is in a bank account from your last sale.
 

Gabe1

Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
I don't know about additional CP housing, but starting this Fall Advantage season (May 2014), some of the bedrooms became triple occupancy.

I had not heard that. Which Ones? It amazes me that that even passes fire codes. When it is a 4 bedroom unit there are at least 2 refrigerators, the 3 bedroom (6 CPs) it is nearly impossible already for them to squish food in. Bathrooms are also a problem already along with couch and table space. These young people are their solution short term and the internationals also enjoy the opportunity, but they need more housing. Again. They did build new and get the Internationals out of the old treehouses but it still isn't enough. They need a sub-plan quickly to deal with employees to fill the spots needed if 'all this actually happens.'

Another solution is for Disney to just expand their full time work force. The full timers get extended, they get the overtime pick up shifts. Part Timers are rarely allowed to add hours. This isn't different than other companies however they are not facing the issues Disney/Orlando area is for competent employees willing to work at poverty wages. Allowing PT CMs that want to go to Full Time would solve the shortage but of course cut into the bottom line.
 

cw1982

Well-Known Member
I'm truly not trying to be rude, but just how does one get elected as the arbiter of what is "fair and balanced"? And why is it that the people who are most fond of using that phrase seem to interpret "fair and balanced" as "promoting only what I believe to be true"?
Look, I'm not ashamed to admit it: I love Disney. I want to see them succeed in providing the best in themed entertainment. But if I'm not going to raise my own daughter with a "my child is the best and can do no wrong" mentality, I'm most certainly not going to cut Disney that kind of slack. Those whom we love we chasten, as needed. :)

Exactly. I think most of us around here love Disney, or we wouldn't be here. But frankly, the idea of putting in teepees on top of a mosquito-and-snake-filled lake do very little, IMO, for improving the place. WL is already pretty popular; it seems like there could have been other ideas for adding on DVC, if that's really what they wanted, that wouldn't involve something this far fetched. And sure, perhaps Disney could take money from DVC to develop the parks, but what evidence do we have that this is happening? We have one area of AK that is being developed, but AK desperately needed additions already, as others have established already. Other than that, we have a parking lot, a "rebuilt shopping mall" as @marni1971 put it (and quite accurately from what I can tell), and... wait for it... more DVC expansions. In the meantime, the parks need far more attention than they're getting. I think if DVC was really going to help the parks to expand, we'd be hearing more talk of a bigger return on that by now.
 

stlphil

Well-Known Member
You can know you are good.. And still be afraid to take a chance. I think Disney p&r is systematically against over reaching or anything that can be perceived as taking that chance. Hence we get the stagnation (why change when this already works?), the safe m&g, the modest rollout of lands, etc. they play it ultra safe and as slow as possible because why rock the boat...

Coming off carsland they KNOW the can hit the home run - they just aren't really committed that it's needed.
Not really disagreeing, but in my experience if someone "knows" they are good they should "play to win", because "playing to not lose" is usually the path to eventually losing.
 

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