The Grizz Will Roar!!

[lamarvenoy]

I'm not a puppet or BN'er, I agree with Grizz 100%. I think the bigest point he's trying to make is the QUALITY of the Disney attractions and overall "Disney experience" is tarnishing. Its not that outdated rides should not be replaced, the replacements should however be at LEAST the same quality if not better.We are seeing alot of unoriginal, uninspiring additions at ALL of the parks and it cheapens the feel. In my opinion some of the rides that are being scrapped shouldn't be. I understand that change is going to happen whether we like it or not but it sure seems to me there is a lot less magic then there used to be.

 

[BalooChicago]

I don't mind the clones, as someone pointed out, much of the MK @ WDW is lesser clones. I still love them. I have no doubt that I'll love Soarin'. I will not miss Food Rocks, it was never Kitchen Kabaret. The Land is one of my favorite's, but I will trust they will "do it right" until I see otherwise. My hope is that the Small World refurb will be the start of a wave of QUALITY refurbs throughout the parks. I for one say STOP BUILDING and FIX IT. As I have said before there are certain things that cannot go, or I will stop going to Disney. They're the Holy Grail as it were. Small World, Pirates, COP, Country Bear. Each of these are attractions that get berated by people on this site. I would love to see a brand new COP reusing as much of the original show as possible, but fixing the gaps in time and allowing for easier, more frequent, updates.

EPCOT needs work. FW does, at least. Trying going there with someone who has never been and see if they see the "magic". When my Fiancee and I went in May (It was her first trip) I found myself constantly apologizing for EPCOT... It's been my favorite park since my first trip in 82 and it fell to #3.

Sorry for all the rambling. Let me sum up. Grizz, great post. While I do not agree that clones, in and of themselves, are bad, I do agree that improving the existing should be a focus.

 

[General Grizz]

Thanks, Lama. Good to point out you're not a "puppet" and what people post here is what they believe in. Which is always a healthy thing. Good post.

Thank you, Baloo, and I generally agree with you. The clones aren't bad, but if Disney relies on them and fires Imagineers, well, what are we coming to? Pretty soon we'll have nothing good to clone!

Here's a great excerpt from a story by "Merlin Jones" at SaveDisney.com:

In today's Disney Company, the Vision is being guided by clear-thinking strategic planners, marketers, statisticians, politicians, social engineers, accountants, and bankers... with the creatives as mere hired help.

Where once Spirits of Youth — animators, artists, storytellers, Imagineers, designers and futurists — contributed the guiding light to Disney's name and image, providing the very essence of the public perception of the company — now their laugher has grown silent, quashed by the practical crunching of numbers and the sensible questions of predetermined surveys (if not the ringing of a cash register).

Innovation has been replaced by templates, imagination by projections, inspiration by management structure.

Mary Poppins has been dismissed by the Walt Disney Company for creating an unseemly display of creative chaos and emotional resistance in the steely presence of MBA practicality. The system has choked out that Spoonful of Sugar.

"We have no obligation to make art. We have no obligation to make a statement. To make money is our only objective." —Michael Eisner

Poppycock!

It's not an allegorical stretch to say the Walt Disney Company is now run by the likes of George Darling, Polly Harrington, Miss Sally, Andrew MacDhui and George Banks. Animators have had their last night in the nursery, fairy tales have been forbidden, audiences have been ordered to grow up, cast-members are never to quote what Walt used to say, the storytellers have been sent away, the old rides and films have been put to sleep and your tuppence will never be used to Feed the Birds.

I'm sure it's all very sensible on a spreadsheet. But we kids don't like it — and refuse to give up the dream.

...And it's no wonder that this Disney "family" is in chaos.

Meanwhile, the Spirit of Youth enlivens PIXAR with goodwill from audiences worldwide, hungry for the childish Disney experience that the Company itself now refuses to produce. So customers have found their Laughing Place in Emeryville instead of Burbank, Anaheim and Orlando and taken their disposable income with them.

But the rational eyes of Disney management are unwilling or unable to see the message at the end of their noses.

To our chagrin, in real life there are no magical nannies to pop in and set things right. But hope springs eternal that the winds will change and that ship will once again fly across the moon, triggering memories that even strategic planners must have seen a long time ago, when they were very young.

"If all the world thought and acted like children, we'd never have any trouble. The only pity is even kids have to grow up." —Walt Disney

A must-read; check it out: http://www.savedisney.com/news/essays/mj070804.1.asp .

 

[cloudboy]

Alas, a perfect example of exactly what they are doing wrong. They are getting distracted by the new new new! mentality. The group that needs constant change and something even more exciting and and a bigger thrill and more more more! They need to keep the adrenalin rush going.

Which is fine, to a point. But that market is also one dominated by the Six Flags and Universals of the world, who just go on pure adrenalin. It would be like Mercedes saying people are buying the cheaper, lower quality cars, so lets increase our market share by building those instead. And then they loose all their old customers and find themselves in a much more competiative market that they can't perform as well in.

The fact is there is a lot more to the world than that. And the more that you focus on that one group, the more those other markets stay away, and you start seeing a greater percentage of only those people, and you have to cater more to that crowd... it's a cycle.

I am glad that you are having as great a time now as you were before. And I am slowly coming to realizze that maybe I am not the Disney fan I thought I was, because to be perfectly honest with you, I am finding that I had a better time back then than I did now. Maybe that's becasue I do things differently, or because I have experienced it too much, or maybe I have just grown out of it. But I for one have noticed that some of that magic is gone. It's just another marketing blitz. I know that certainly does not reflect the general attitude on the boards here, but I think that may be reflective of a lot of people who have no background or interest with Disney before, and certainly aren't going to be convinced to go there now.

 

[HennieBogan1966]

Well, I would tell you that my Wife and I enjoy WDW as much as ever. I for one, enjoy it just as much now as when I was a child. I don't think that it's necessarily that we are trying to say that we don't enjoy being there as much as we used to, but that we are saddened by the direction of the company and the lack of vision with respect to the core of the business, which was animation. When SOME of us use the phrase, "It All Started With A Mouse", it's more than a catch-phrase. To some it means that the very center of this business was animation, and that vision has been lost for some time. And I've been to the SAVEDISNEY web site, and found it to be somewhat of an Eisner-bashing web site. I'm no fan of his at all, but continually bashing him, without giving good information has to how to repair the damage that's been done, does little to move the process forward.

I think that what a lot of us would like to see happen is for enough people to organize and to get thru to Disney in some way that demands that they look at how better to run their different business units, especially the parks/resorts.

 

[dxwwf3]

What can we honestly expect in the future...all the current 'new' attractions have a very short life expectancy (atleast for me anyway)...look how long AE lasted, before management said 'enough', time to bring in the kiddies and their parents and the $$...I'm ok with change, I'm ok with getting rid of the old and bringing in the new...just as long as what is being brought in, is of the same worth or more, as what was replaced...

How long will it be before Test Track gets old, or M:S, or even a kiddie ride like Pooh? I'll bet that those rides will get old quicker than the classics...rides like PotC and HM are priceless...will PhilharMagic last aslong as Small World? Will Primeval Whirl?

Bravo! Not just about AE (which did bring a smile to my face), but about the current top attractions as well.

And it might be hard for some of you to believe, but I also am not always against change. In fact the only recent change I was totally against was of course AE, but that was my all time favorite. The additions of Soarin, Philharmagic, and Wishes have all been welcomed by me. But I also fear that we will start to see replacements that no longer aim to be better than the original (Similar to Tiki Room and Journey Into Your Imagination). And hopefully there will be no more changes simply for the sake of change. Newer doesn't always equal better. Hopefully things will work out and the parks will get better.

 

[General Grizz]

Agreed. I still have as much fun at Walt Disney World. I only am saddened when I pass by the "downs" that have replaced the "ups." (aka inside JIYI).

YET... when Disney is putting CoP and the SE on the cutting block, then things are getting a bit more serious. And then I will have to seriously fight for it.

 

[Woody13]

Oh yeah, I'll be surprised if we hear much more from Woody on this thread.

I deferred to Scooter in post #68. Be polite please.:kiss:

 

[BwanaBob]

I would LOVE to have a Heart-to-Heart with the CFO.

Where in the hell is all the money going? With as many avenues Disney has broadened itself with, you would think someone is channelling all the cash into Vegas...and is losing terribly!

I understand the 'Parks' revenue is so-so, but how did Walt manage to subsidize when the old regime was around?

I probably think a little different than others:
No clones....EVER. Make the park unique. Make it a destination vacation spot. Make me want to go to California to ride Indiana Jones. Make me want to see what all the hoopla is around Tokyo. Make me WANT to go to Florida to see Walt's origional CoP that was in the World's Fair!

Unlike many amusement parks, there is huge history behind Disney...something NO-ONE can buy, inherit, or compete with.

FAMILY. Isn't that what they want us to think when we think of Disney? (ie:Magical Gatherings?) What a better way to make it a staple in the family vacation plans than to include attractions the whole family can enjoy, embrace, ...and remember...through many generations. Why yes, even Grandpa can remember the first time he rode PoC, while his grandchild sees it for the first time. Put ANY combination of family members into this scenario. (tell me how many other parks can boast such an awesome memory in the average American family! 'Ever been to _________? Nah. What about Disney? Of Course!....and you? Whats your favorite________?')

CoP needs to stay. Why would you scrap this, but leave such areas like Swiss Family's Ultra-modern living facility? This just dosen't make any sense at all. All that damn property, and no way to capitalize on the best of both worlds.

'What a shame, boys.........what a shame.'

 

[HennieBogan1966]

Well, newer may not always be better, and sometimes yes. But the classics are what we are fighting for here. While I welcome attractions that are NEW to WDW, i.e. Soarin', I also welcome the refurbishment of the classics that remind us all of what this Man, His Parks, and His Legacy are all about.

I would like to see some new vision, new ideas at WDW. And that's what Grizz and I are talking about. It's about Mgmt. You can't get good things done, using bad mgmt. Change mgmt., change the vision of the company.
I don't know at this point, since I'm not there, who is best suited to run the company. But I know whta the vision should be. That's a return to the roots
and vision that made Disney: Disney. Returning to the animated classics, by making them available to the general public thru re-released dvd sales.

Refurbs as needed across all the parks. New ticket pricing to entice families
of all ages to visit throughout the year. New merchandising standards, and employment/payroll policies for park shops, as well as ALL Disney Stores.

Again, it takes a change in leadership to change the vision of a company, no matter how large or small.

 

[WDWScottieBoy]

Everything I have posted on here is my honest opinion and 100% original. I'm not s__________g up to Grizz or being a muppet/puppet. I think what he has going here is perfect. We need change for some, but for the classics, NO! Update, possibly, change completely, NO! There's only so much one can do for this, and for one, I'm going to do all I can possibly do. Grizz, PM me with more information about how we can contact mgmt and anyone else that we can get something done about this. It must be stopped (from being taken away) and we must preserve it in it's natural beauty, the beauty Walt saw it as and wanted to keep.

 

[BuzzLite_Fran]

Great Grizzzzz I agree with ya on all points!

 

[Scooter]

Classics are just that. Classics!!! They need no further explanation as to why they last. We're all for keeping the classics. That's exactly what we have been saying.

Why can't we let the "Classics just be that...Classics? The original Tiki Birds
Mister Toads Wild Ride
Kitchen Caberet starring Bonnie Appitite
Even COP..which I Dearly Love might be a "classic" but they'res a reason why it's closing.

If you brought back ANY or ALL of these attractions they would STILL be walk ons because people have outgrown them or simply don't care to see them anymore.

My Gawd people...do you expect Disney to to just keep these rides open because you used to like them and miss them?

If you owned a grocery store would you still sell items that no one bought anymore simply because on occasion someone might walk in and said " I remember buying that as a child"?

Pirates of the Carribean is a Classic
Big Thunder Mountain RR is a classic
Small World is a classic
Space Mountain is a Classic
Haunted Mansion is a Classic

and they are still open for a reason...they are still popular.

I'm sure I've forgotten a few other classic attractions but my point is this...

...Just because YOU enjoyed it doesn't make it a classic.

I'm not trying to sell any Disney attraction short. The Disney people are experts at creating new and wonderful things to see and do....but some are more enjoyable and will stand the test of time more than others...and some will need to be replaced based on their popularity.

Disney has experts to determine this stuff.
It's ok to love an attraction..but don't beat yourself up if it goes away... because the Imagineers and the Disney Exects have already analized and crunched the numbers and figured out whether to keep the attraction or lose it.

There will always be people who feel the need to "Bring back the good old days" and miss the old rides. For those who do that I say...I respect you and I wish I could make time stand still or turn back the clock to a happier or better time...But to those who look forward with anticipation to the future and to what it could possibly bring I say this...Isn't it exciting not knowing whats coming...it's a little like Christmas morning. Sometimes you're a little dissapointed in what you get..but for the most part, it's a great time and well worth the waiting.

 

[DisneyFan 2000]

You are all acting like pupets of grizz.

Why is that? Because we agree? If you think all is well at the WDC you've been living in Fantasyland. When was the last time we got a feature animation as B&tB or The Little Mermaid? Why are 70% of all new rides / parks are clones or off-the-shelf attractions? *coughDCAcough*.

I know that there is no new attraction I've been wowed from since the Splash Mountain or Indiana Jones era. Why is Eisner giving himself a bonus when films are flopping and companies are interested in hostile takeovers?

I agree, Disney is not even close to being an expensive carnival park but the way things are headed, just don't be suprised in 20 years time...


*A DisneyFan side note: I hope we all understand that this is all in fun. I enjoy hearing your opinions and respect them..

 

[General Grizz]

Why can't we leave the classics. . .

But NEW attractions - replacements - do not have the same effect. Did the Enchanted Tiki Room Under New Management have as much effect in its opening as when Tropical Serenade first opened? NO.

Did Food Rocks have as much of a fanbase as Kitchen Kabaret? NO. (Food Rocks closed to a half audience, but when Kitchen Kabaret had a cardboard cutout next door during Food and Wine, there were over 10,000 guests in a couple of weeks, running up to it, singing 'Veggie Veggie Fruit Fruit')

It's the power of the attraction. And if you can't make it any better, don't change it.

My Gawd people...do you expect Disney to to just keep these rides open because you used to like them and miss them?

That's not the argument.

Pirates of the Carribean is a Classic
Big Thunder Mountain RR is a classic
Small World is a classic
Space Mountain is a Classic
Haunted Mansion is a Classic

Ah! But then. . .

...Just because YOU enjoyed it doesn't make it a classic.

Oh, right. So that means just because YOU like BTMR, Small World, Space Mountain, and Haunted Mansion, and dub them "classics," it doesn't make it a classic?

We're not asking to bring back the good days, Scooter. The plea is to quit changing attractions to half-a$$ed theme, queue, quality, originality, and honesty, and building NEW attractions that are just as good as Splash Mountain to let Disney's theme parks endure. . .

. . .and not end up like Feature Animation.

 

[imagineer boy]

Oh, right. So that means just because YOU like BTMR, Small World, Space Mountain, and Haunted Mansion, and dub them "classics," it doesn't make it a classic?

We're not asking to bring back the good days, Scooter. The plea is to quit changing attractions to half-a$$ed theme, queue, quality, originality, and honesty, and building NEW attractions that are just as good as Splash Mountain to let Disney's theme parks endure. . .

. . .and not end up like Feature Animation.

Couldn't of said it better.

Def. of classic: "A ride or show that many have enjoyed for years and years and keep comming back to see it."

 

[MichRX7]

I still vote for my original idea.

1. Move COP to EPCOT center where it could fit in and end the endless debate about whether it should be in TomorrowLand

2. Return COP to it's orginal time frames as a historical tribute to the brilliance of Walt Disney

3. Add an outer ring with updates through modern times.

4. The starting point should be the original ride.

5. The queue could be a sort of "one man's dream", "history of walt disney", or "The Making of CoP" to view as you wait in the incredibly long lines this attraction will have

6. Put a "Horizonsish" ride that shows the future of technology and mankind into Tomorrowland. Imagine that a future type story-telling ride in a land based on the future....hmm...

 

[HennieBogan1966]

Glad to hear from ya Woody13, but sorry to hear you have "deferred" to Scooter. Sounds like someone who has run out of ideas to me. But that's okay. We'll continue the debate anyway.

In reference to those who have commented on how it's okay to want the good ole days back and not wanting to move forward: When some of us comment about the good ole days, and rides we loved as kids, it isn't that we want those specific rides back. You've missed the POINT entirely. It's that we believe that the IDEAS and the VISION that was used to create those rides that meant so much to us is what we want back. Yes the rides may have been fun to us, but we are all intelligent enough to understand that change is a part of life. (refer to some of my previous posts as proof of this understanding). But what's lacking is the creativity that was once used at Disney to create and bring to life some of these very special rides/attractions. THAT'S what we miss. What we don't want to see is cookie-cutter, bean-counter rides just because someone with an mb in business mgmt. says it's a good idea cause "lots of kids" will ride this coaster. "They love it at Universal and Busch Gardens". WDW is different from any other Theme Park/Resort company in the world. As such, their approach should be different. As it was in, hold on to your hats here folks, IN THE GOOD OLE DAYS.

 

[RaoulXpres]

Well, I haven't read through every reply, and I dont even post on this board practically, but here are my thoughts:

When I first started getting into Disney I would love to browse the boards. People would be talking about memories, rumors, future plans, and exchanging experiences. Now, about 2 years later, It's much different.
Everyone is cynical, and to me, it's really hurting the Disney community. Probobly most people don't even realize how negative their comments sound.

I understand that Disney means a lot to a lot of people, and everyone is going to have strong feelings and opinions on their topics. Take, for example, the blatant bashing of Michael Eisner. Whenever I hear someone take a cheap shot at him it makes me question their true motives.

Cynicisim is our worst enemy, and that is somethign I live my life believing. The hardest part is being opinionated and emotional without being cynical. I think these boards are a great example of some people expressing views that outside readers woudl see as bitter.

My opinion probobly doesn't mean much to anyone, and thats fine with me, but I get so irked when I hear people complain with no end about what they don't like. "I hate the Wand on my beautiful EPCOT ball." "I hate the cheap Dinorama coockie-cutter ride." "I hate how Horizons was replaced with an attraction with no meaning."

After a while, it just gets tiring and repetative. I'm not trying to make a difference, or maybe I am. All I know is that I have found that reading boards like this has brought out the worst in Disney. It has made it a bad image almost. I think we all know that is not what Disney is. They have made mistakes, have done so un-disney things, but I think we will all agree that Disney has magic that no one else can even imagine.

I guess thats all. I think most peoepl will tear me apart, but I expect that.

I just want Disney to be what it was. And the ones in control of that aren't Disney execs...

 

[General Grizz]

I understand what you're saying, Raoul, and, YES!! We DO care about what you say!

But, if you look in my search history, you'll find thousands of positive posts. But, although this may be a negative thread, we see it as a necessary evil to keep the great talk about Walt Disney World - by means of great attractions, and queues, and etc.

Sorry for making things seem dark around the boards, but I hope you run into many of my positive posts. Again, just like the positive posts, I found I needed to put out this message in hopes to gather support to protect our memories and the creative future of the Walt Disney Company. :wave: