The General's Call to Arms: Epcot's future -- SAVE THE EARTH!

[KevinPage]

Grizz,

WOW, this post has gotten off to a fast start. I understand what you are saying, but I tend to agree with Lee (although I LOVE Epcot). I feel The Land needs a total redo or a better use of it's concept. I can't remember the last time I even bothered to enter the pavillion or even wanted to show it to friends/relatives when they visited us.

I LOVE Soarin and let's stop calling it a THRILL ride, it's far from it. It's just a great unique attraction that is fun. Yes, it would be nice to still have a tranquil setting on the floor with the food court. But I'm not going to get too upset over a "food court" myself. I want more things "to do" in Future World & so do most guests.

I always appreciated the educational message of EPCOT. It's one of the reasons I love the park, it's different from any theme/amusement park out there. But let's face it, WOL, Living Seas and The Land have alot of BORING stuff going on there. Yeah, it's a nice try, but the way it was implemented, most people don't give a rats patoot.

I'm not saying that every ride/atraction/pavillion has to be catered to the attention defecit generation. But Disney has to cater to that crowd to a certain extent, whether we like that or not. Heck, EPCOT was spoofed on The Simpsons about it's "outdatedness" and "educational message".

Do I think rides like Test Track and Mission Space could have MORE education in them? Sure, but there still is some in there and is not as "bang you on the head" as attractions in the past. Granted, I would have loved to see those rides added to existing pavillions. But it I could only have 1 or the other, I'll opt for what we have now.

Hopefully they merge Soarin with what we have in a good way. If that can't be done, I'm open to new possibilities and better ideas for the pavillion if neccesary

 

[cloudboy]

I don't mind them changing the Land, in that I think there could be a lot more in it. I would not mind if it changed from an agricultural focus to a geology or geography focus. I do see there being a ton of potential in that pavilion, and I think Sorain may revitalize interest in it. I used to find it one of the more boring ones, in fact, since the only thing I really did there was Kitchen Cabaret, and sometimes the boat ride (which was kind of dull).

I don't think that they woudl change it over to an aviation pavilion. Soarin wouldn't even fit with that! There is a big difference between Air and Aviation. Air could be part of it - the structure of the earth also involves the atmosphere. Aviation is purely air transportation, and is only technology.

I would love to see an aviation pavilion, though!

 

[Shaman]

Oh man, I saw this coming down I-4 days ago.....

My thoughts on this are sort of mixed, and contrary to much of the sentiment here.

Firstly, I LOVE Soarin'. I was blown away by it at DCA, and I'm thrilled that it is coming to Epcot. I, like many others, would like to see a new ride film, but I also understand the rationale for using the old one, at least for the first few years. (FYI, that is still the info I am getting, that a new film could premiere as early as Epcot's 25th.)

Second, I must admit to not being a HUGE Epcot fan. I simply have little interest in the educational aspects of the park. That goes for every one of the original pavillions. I enjoy Spaceship Earth, and on occasion Living with the Land. But I only enjoy them in the sense that they are fun little attractions, not because I am being educated about anything. Same for Test Track and Mission:SPACE. Great rides, with any messages about the future simply floating in the background. I expect the same from Soarin'. Entertaining ride first, educational message a distant second.

Third, the changes to the Land. I admit, my information here is sketchy. I was given about a three sentence description, and liked what I heard. I have NO INDICATION about an aviation theme coming to the pavillion. Soarin', as we all know, is a hang glider simulator not an airplane simulator. (True, it is in the Condor Flats section of DCA, and fits well there, but it could easily been put in another area.) Think of the changes as being more along the lines of seeing the land from the air, not really a celebration of flight or anything like that. (At least to my knowledge.) Food Rocks? I didn't really like it. Sunshine Season? I couldn't care less. Close the food court and put some good food in Innoventions West. Works for me.

Fourth, and last, Future World. My thoughts on Future World are the same as my thoughts on Tomorrowland. Scrap the entire concept of a serious look at the future. Why? Because as Walt found out years ago, you can't keep up with tomorrow due to it's nasty habit of becomming today. They have mostly learned this with Tomorrowland, and have gone with a more light hearted, sci-fi approach that works much better. It is now time to do the same with Future World. Want to name it Discoveryland? Fine. That would be a much better theme: What we are doing today to get us to tomorrow. That instead of trying to predict the future and end up looking dated a week from Thursday. You know what? I think Walt would agree.

Now, I'm going to go hide behind Tower of Terror to avoid the rotten eggs and tomatoes that I can already hear whistling through the air.

Edit: I'm gonna need to edit this a bit. Not all of my opinions are clearly stated. Bear with me.

I see what you mean...and I agree, I loved the idea of bringing Soarin over to Epcot too (the new films will come later I guess)...

But since I was young, I've strangely been an Epcot fan (it was my favorite park, education and all, Horizons my favorite attraction in all of Disney), and yes...with management's apathy for Epcot...my interest has waned, seeing it crumble hasn't been easy (its nice to see new things finally coming to Epcot, I just hope theres a little peace of the past left too when everything is said and done).

The Land needs a rehab...but to scrap something which seems to be working...thats not a good idea (everytime I go in there its packed). I'm holding faith that they'll blend Soarin' right into the pavilion...Lee, your "looking at the Land from the sky" statement really put things in perspective for me...if they make that clear in the ride/queue....and don't make it too aviation like in DCA...then that would mean that they've fitted the ride to the pavilion and not the other way around...

The Land needs work...but it doesn't need a major overhaul...make the pavilion more interesting...education can be fun if the medium is the correct one...I personally don't care too much for this pavilion, but many don't share my opinion...like I've said...its always crowded...

I hope that whatever they do...its for the better....

 

[SirNim]

Grizz, you are exactly right about the necessity for the attraction/possible new theme to be inspiring...

From the Dedication Plaque - "May Epcot Center entertain, inform and inspire. And, above all, may it instill a new sense of belief and pride in man's ability to shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere."

The question is... Will a retheming of The Land still conform to these values expressed on Oct. 1, 1982?

The Land is based on symbiosis - a relationship of mutual benefit or dependence - humanity's relationship with the earth...
To throw this key aspect of not only the Future, but also Discovery in the present (accounting for not only Future World but also the proposed name change of Discoveryland) out, once again for the mere sake of better aligning the pavilion with an attraction that, at least on opening day, will only provide sweeping sugarcoated views of Californian terrain, would be a disastrous blow to the premise of EPCOT Center on which the entire park was first built.

This brings us once again to inspiration... Future World, including The Land, is still marvelously relevant, and though some don't want to hear it, even still futuristic. Personally, many interests of mine have been sparked by my visits to this wonderful park, including interests in agriculture and ecology. The rationale behind The Land must not be altered fundamentally for the sake of Soarin'. Soarin' must be inspiring, and so too must be any retheming of the pavilion. The pavilion has had the potential all these many years to truly make one consider our position on earth and the way our Land is used. There is no reason whatsoever for this educational yet inspiring aspect of The Land to change.

In the end, I can only hope that whatever changes come to The Land comport with the ideals outlined in the EPCOT Center dedication...

 

[garyhoov]

Gary, I would recommend that you read the entire first post.

I did, but I've got adult ADHD, so I probably missed some of the key points. :lol:

You put a lot more thought into these things than I ever would. My simple perspective:

1 Land - 1 Food Rocks + 1 gift shop + Soarin' = More entertaining, more cohesively themed area of EPCOT.

Are there better ways to do it? Probably, but I'm not on Disney's payroll, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time thinking about it or telling them how to do it.

When they offer me a job, I'll put more thought into it. For now, I'll just let them do the work, and I'll enjoy the sights and the Florida sunshine one week out of the year.

I guess that's why I so infrequently post on these threads, I'm a simple person with a somewhat undersized brain who is relatively easy to please.

 

[ToTBellHop]

I knew a lot of you wouldn't like the idea of these changes to The Land, but you should definitely wait until next April to decide whether or not you like them. They aren't necessarily bad changes, just changes, which is inevitable in Future World. I see it as the Land, in its present form, suffering a big from "can't see the forest for the trees" syndrome, so we just need to zoom out a bit to get the big picture. I am sure some of you won't like the final product, but I think it will be fun. And, I have also noticed that over the past few years, the quality of food in the Land has been dropping a bit, so I have been eating in the Electric Umbrella, increasingly, anyway. They cannot have a food court down there any more because it would be downright dangerous. With the crowds that Soarin' will generate, the current crowds down there will simply not work. That doesn't mean there will be no food in there, anymore, just not a food court. Future World is getting a very nice new restaurant, soon, anyway. If you stop by Boma--Flavors of Africa, you will get a nice idea of what is coming to Future World, because it has food by the same lead chef.

 

[FutureCEO]

Disney knows what attractions draw and what don't and they don't

 

[Lee]

I hope this makes some kind of sense.
I apologize in advance for my inability to reply to topics in that cool, one bit at a time way. Here's the best I can do.

"Ah, but education MUST be there"
Um...no it doesn't. I am a believer in entertainment for the sake of entertainment. That is all I need for a successful attraction.

"I believe, however, that even more than education, INSPIRATION should come out of Disney's attractions."
Um...maybe. But what about Tower, Matterhorn, Space Mtn., Mansion, etc. Not much inspiration there, just fantastic entertainment. Mission accomplished.

"Sure, Soarin' is inspiring (and *at this point* not educational, unless you're studying California), but what IS it inspiring? Inspiring us to visit Disneyland? Or could it be inspiring (like Kali River) to be saving the earth? Say, rainforests. Kali River is an excellent example of this type of attraction - thrilling, fun, and even inspirational."
Not educational? Good.
I do like the Kali example. Fun ride, but only inspirational or "educational" if you care to scratch the surface. No lectures there.

"Are you saying that the future of the Land will be more futuristic? And will aesthetics and peacefulness remain? (I'm sure Walt loved peace)."
Best I can tell, they aren't gonna destroy the place. More futuristic, not really. Just different, but not necessarily in a bad way. You'll see.

"But the main thing that gets me is "scrap the concept." This is The Land we are talking about - a necessary ingredient to the Future World story."
The concept I want to scrap is the concept of "Future World". The future simply does not work as a concept. Not with Tomorrowland, not at Epcot. That is the beauty of Discoveryland. As I said, make it a look at what we are doing TODAY in order to get to TOMORROW. That would work much better.

 

[KevinPage]

I knew a lot of you wouldn't like the idea of these changes to The Land, but you should definitely wait until next April to decide whether or not you like them. They aren't necessarily bad changes, just changes, which is inevitable in Future World. I see it as the Land, in its present form, suffering a big from "can't see the forest for the trees" syndrome, so we just need to zoom out a bit to get the big picture. I am sure some of you won't like the final product, but I think it will be fun

I'm sure if you could give more detailed info you would. But let me ask you this. Are the current themes and purpose of the pavillion being removed completely/partially? Is it still going to offer the "educational" and "premise" of EPCOT just in a different way?

Frankly I don't put nearly as much thought into this as Grizz does

 

[ToTBellHop]

I'm sure if you could give more detailed info you would. But let me ask you this. Are the current themes and purpose of the pavillion being removed completely/partially? Is it still going to offer the "educational" and "premise" of EPCOT just in a different way?

Frankly I don't put nearly as much thought into this as Grizz does

it will be different, that is for sure. The overall addition scope of the Land in a year will still feature educational aspects, if that is what you are looking for. Put another way, you are not going to be any less educated from Soarin' than you were from Food Rocks. You will be far more entertained and have the most fun you have ever had in Future World West, though. The premise of The Land will be changed partially, not completely. You are still going to learn a lot from Living with the Land, and, again, I learned nothing from watching the mildly-entertaining Food Rocks. The queue, alone, in Soarin' will teach you more than Food Rocks did (a show about nutrition really belonged in Wonders of Life, to begin with...)

 

[General Grizz]

[Education] doesn't [have to be there]. [Inspiration:] um...maybe. But what about Tower, Matterhorn, Space Mtn., Mansion, etc. Not much inspiration there, just fantastic entertainment. Mission accomplished.

Lee - These are all attractions outside of Epcot.

As explained in the Epcot dedication:

To all who come to this Place of Joy, Hope and Friendship, Welcome. EPCOT is inspired by Walt Disney's creative vision. Here, human achievements are celebrated through imagination, wonders of enterprise and concepts of a future that promises new and exciting benefits for all. May EPCOT Center entertain, inform and inspire, and above all, may it instill a new sense of belief and pride in man's ability to shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere."

-- E. Cardon Walker; October 24, 1982

Sure. We can have roller coaster whoop-dee-do and it would be pure entertainment. But as Mr. Walker pointed out, Epcot is a different kind of dimension. Its entertainment is alongside *information* and *inspiration*.

Does information "ruin" the experience? Heck no. Journey into Imagination and Kali River were "educational" in their own rights. Cranium Command is a comedy that still has the audience laughing. And inspiration can ONLY help. . . inspiration is a key that brings guests back, thus creating a successful attraction.

Lee - I have a question for you.

From what you know, will the peacefulness of the bottom level be kept? Will the serenity of the land, the cool atmosphere, the place to relax be kept?

What we need is not something "new and exciting." Rather, we need something "good and worthwhile" that IS "new and exciting." That's the big difference.

This brings us once again to inspiration... Future World, including The Land, is still marvelously relevant, and though some don't want to hear it, even still futuristic. Personally, many interests of mine have been sparked by my visits to this wonderful park, including interests in agriculture and ecology. The rationale behind The Land must not be altered fundamentally for the sake of Soarin'. Soarin' must be inspiring, and so too must be any retheming of the pavilion. The pavilion has had the potential all these many years to truly make one consider our position on earth and the way our Land is used. There is no reason whatsoever for this educational yet inspiring aspect of The Land to change.

In the end, I can only hope that whatever changes come to The Land comport with the ideals outlined in the EPCOT Center dedication...

Nim - wow. You show me that our REAL Future World has some future!

That, or we're all headed to a stagnant world of discovery. So much for forward thinking, Walt. :brick:

 

[FigmentJedi]

No!!! Not the Food Fair! Now where will I get my Mickeyroni?

 

[cloudboy]

But I WANT to be inspired! I want something to spark off an idea. I want something that gives me something to think about. I hate just sitting there like a stone while I am pummled by special effects. Future World is the one part of the parks that actually has some meat to it. So when you just can't stand another song going through your head or another screaming parent or from being thriwn about and stood on end with your senses, you have something to get your brain back in motion.

 

[cloudboy]

Did anyone read that article on Jim Hill http://www.jimhillmedia.com/main/index.htm about the Epcot that we Almost got. From my reading of it it pretty much IS what we got, just tempered with economic reality. I think it says a whole lot about what the spirit of EPCOT is/was supposed to be. And why so many of us are upset that it is turning into just another amusement park.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Did anyone read that article on Jim Hill http://www.jimhillmedia.com/main/index.htm about the Epcot that we Almost got. From my reading of it it pretty much IS what we got, just tempered with economic reality. I think it says a whole lot about what the spirit of EPCOT is/was supposed to be. And why so many of us are upset that it is turning into just another amusement park.

Excuse me, but the addition of Soarin' as a replacement for Food Rocks! in no way is a movement from Disney Theme Park to amusement park. If anything, one would be more likely to find a slightly-cheaper version of Food Rocks! at your local Six Flags. Let's not try to pretend Soarin' is in any way cheap, unimaginative, un-Disney, or that it is a great travesty of life that Soarin' is replacing the decrepit Food Rocks that was averaging maybe 30 guests per showing. And no one is suggesting that the changes that will occur at the Land are cheap. They are just changes, and in many cases at Disney, change is good. For example, the removal of a similarly-decrepit Residential Street for the awesome Lights, Motors, Action! Extreme Stunt Show.

 

[General Grizz]

Excuse me, but the addition of Soarin' as a replacement for Food Rocks! in no way is a movement from Disney Theme Park to amusement park. If anything, one would be more likely to find a slightly-cheaper version of Food Rocks! at your local Six Flags. Let's not try to pretend Soarin' is in any way cheap, unimaginative, un-Disney, or that it is a great travesty of life that Soarin' is replacing the decrepit Food Rocks that was averaging maybe 30 guests per showing. And no one is suggesting that the changes that will occur at the Land are cheap. They are just changes, and in many cases at Disney, change is good. For example, the removal of a similarly-decrepit Residential Street for the awesome Lights, Motors, Action! Extreme Stunt Show.

Could you describe to us, however, what will be the result of the rest of the pavilion? This is what is concerning most of us, it seems. We can't just hear "changes."

P.S. Food Rocks was replaced by queue. Not that I liked it, but you'll see what I mean in orig. post.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Could you describe to us, however, what will be the result of the rest of the pavilion? This is what is concerning most of us, it seems. We can't just hear "changes."

P.S. Food Rocks was replaced by queue. Not that I liked it, but you'll see what I mean in orig. post.

Food Rocks was replaced as a new post-show and gift shop area that will easily be enjoyed by more guests than Food Rocks was enjoyed by. I don't want to tell you exactly what changes will occur in the Land, but let's see. When you ride Kali River Rapids or Kilimanjaro Safaris, they are both themed like travel agencies that are taking you on tours, correct? The new theme of the Land will be along this same wavelength, allowing you to view the land by air or by boat. Without too many details, does that make sense? It will add to the conduciveness of the pavillion. Perhaps now it makes sense why the posters have said "We are cleared for take-off" and shows a runway with a hang glider in the background since the project was announced? That slogan applies to airplanes, not hang gliders. It's like a tour...you get in a plane and then jump out in your hang glider and soar over California. If anything, this will take the current Land pavillion, will very little overall story, and add a story that everything else can tie into. It's different, but not bad (it certainly works at Animal Kingdom).

 

[General Grizz]

Okay. Will the PEACEFULLNESS of the Land be removed? Will things remain serene and colorful, in tune, and recreational (by this I mean easy to sit down, have an ice cream, walk around)?

EDIT: WILL THE FOUNTAIN STAY??

 

[ToTBellHop]

Okay. Will the PEACEFULLNESS of the Land be removed? Will things remain serene and colorful, in tune, and recreational (by this I mean easy to sit down, have an ice cream, walk around)?

Is it usually peaceful near an E-Ride? How peaceful is it in front of Test Track, Mission: SPACE, Splash Mountain, Big Thunder, Space Mountain, Rock 'n' Roller Coaster?

Living with the Land will remain peaceful like it is now. Soarin' is a thrill ride.

Last I heard...negatory on the fountain, but that is a small detail that can always change...but from what brief details I know, it might be on its way out.

 

[General Grizz]

In that case, I am exteremly disturbed.

We already have the thrill ride. If a clone (albeit a good one) will ruin Epcot, Walt help us.