The end for refillable mugs?

sbkline

Well-Known Member
For what its worth I just recently sat in on a Labor arbitration in which the Union argued that because the Company previously did not enforce a certain employee rule, the rule was void. The arbitrator didn't buy that argument and denied the grievance.

Also, for what its worth, laws governing what business do with their merchandise and what people do with their real estate are in no way related. So while it works as an analogy on a discussion board its not a valid legal argument.

Good points. I honestly see valid points on each side and kind of go back and forth on the issue, myself. Right now, for some of the reasons given, I lean toward the position that "mug abusing" could be viewed as the de facto policy, although I must admit that I'm not 100% convinced, myself. I just love the ethical debate and the chance to view and discuss it from all different angles and give myself some good food for thought to chew on all day at work, or as I sit and watch TV, or whatever. :lol:

I have to admit, one flaw in my own argument is that, as a walmart employee, I'm not trained nor authorized to run out after someone and make a stop. So if someone walks right by me with an item, all I can do is ask to see the receipt, but I'm not allowed to chase them into the parking lot if they don't produce it and walk on by. Or if I see someone yank a pack of gum off the shelf and walk out with it, I'm probably not gonna say anything to them and I know that management isn't going to trouble themselves over a 25 cent pack of gum. Yet this apathy doesn't constitute a policy of welcoming people to take gum off the shelves. I guess in my mind, part of what makes it different is the fact that it goes beyond simple apathy, into a seeming policy of telling CMs to tell people that it's okay to bring mugs back. If, indeed, CMs are telling people that it's okay, and further, if they are actually being told to do so, then that makes alot of difference in th discussion, IMO.

Another thing to consider, is in what ways are every one of us guilty of some kind of "theft" along the same level of mug abuse? While, on the one hand, a low price tag doesn't justify theft (as in a 25 cent pack of gum from the store). Yet, on the other hand, I'm sure even the most die hard anti-mug abuse people here wouldn't think a thing of doing some of the examples I am about to give.

Having lived a few places, growing up, with a field next door, we didn't think anything of pulling a few soybeans off the crops and eating them. Or pulling off an ear of corn here and there. It wasn't our field, so technically it would be theft, but rightly or wrongly, most people don't think of it as such, since it is but one or two ears of corn out of a 40 acre crop. How many in this thead have done the same thing and never thought a thing about it?

What about taking a few extra minutes (either on purpose or by accident) on a paid break period, or stopping to chit chat with a neighbor while on the clock? We all do it, but technically, you're using work time for personal visiting even if it is only a few minutes and thus only 50 cents or so. Yet, none of us would dream of clocking in and then leaving the building and running around for 8 hours, then coming back to clock out. And we actually had someone fired for that a few years ago at my workplace, believe it or not. :lol:

None of us would dream of going to the WDW food court and opening the napkin container and taking the entire contents home so as to avoid buying a package of napkins on our next trip to the store. Yet most of us wouldn't think anything of taking a handful of napkins on our way out to stuff in the wife's purse to use as kleenexes for the rest of the day.

None of us would even think about going to the supply cabinet at work and taking a box of staples home to use on our personal stapler at home. Yet how many of us wouldn't think twice about using the office stapler for personal use here and there, using paper printed from the office printer, to staple personal stuff, such as forwarded jokes, or whatever else you may be printing. Even if it is only one staple here and there, it could still be considered "theft" since it is office staples.

Again, regarding the paper, none of us would even think of taking home a ream of paper from the office to fill our personal printer at home, but I bet most of us wouldn't think twice about checking personal email at work (see second example above), and printing out a joke forward, or maybe using slow time at the office to print off real estate listings in your search for a new home, or whatever. Again, not only are you "stealing" office time for personal use, but you're stealing paper.

What about paper clips, or an occasional ink pen from the desk that we may take home for personal use?

We wouldn't even think about taking a mass quantity of any of these things, yet few of us would raise any serious moral objection to the occasional use of the office stapler, or a few extra napkins from the food court after we're done eating, etc.

Again, I'm not trying to say that theft is okay as long as it's in small quantities, but on the other hand, it's worth considering in what ways all of us are guilty of taking things here and there, without thinking a thing of it as theft.

Most "mug abusers" wouldn't even think about going to the general store in their resort and shoplifting a case of soda, but most of them don't even consider their actions as theft, just as you don't think you're coworker is stealing time if he stops and chats a few minutes with his brother while on the clock. Rightly or wrongly, we just don't classify that in our minds as being the same as clocking in and then sitting in the breakroom playing crossword puzzles for an hour.
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
Noooooooooo.jpg
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
We really, really, REALLY are taking this subject too seriously. Once real estate and labor laws get brought into the subject, the deep end has been reached......
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
We really, really, REALLY are taking this subject too seriously. Once real estate and labor laws get brought into the subject, the deep end has been reached......

Yes the bishop is getting bashed,

or is it a deceased horse getting assaulted :shrug:
 

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
I've said it before...but the fact that any of us are on a site dedicated to furry dancing mice and fake castles indicates we ALL take trivial subjects too seriously. :lol:

I don't see where assigning islands of triviality within this ocean of pointless babble makes much sense. Anybody looking at this site from the outside would conclude we're all crazy for even being here. Why do we need to train our guns on each other to determine who's most obsessed with the most insignificant topic?

If refillable mugs is too trivial for anyone, perhaps meatier topics like the Dining Plan, the new DCA logo, or what's going to happen to Mickey's house will be more to your liking. :cool:
 

Timekeeper

Well-Known Member
What if it's not the "taking" that is at issue, but the "manner" of the taking...

Some of the conservative opinions here might suggest that me walking into Ice Station Cool and filling my 20oz water bottle with soda from Mozambique is not-so-cool. But, if I stay there for 5 minutes and consume 20oz of soda from Mozambique using the small red paper cups, that's cool. Is there any difference whatsoever between the two?

The Backlot Express at Hollywood Studios a refill friendly dining location - at least that's my assumption, because: (1) the soda machines are openly accessible in the dining room, (2) there are no signs suggesting no refills, and (3) it is generally understood in our dining culture that the combination of open soda machines-without notice of prohibition welcomes refills. So, suppose I am having a cheeseburger and orange soda, and consume two cups of soda with the bruger. Okay. Now, suppose I finish the cheeseburger and one soda and step outside to watch the Star Wars show, and then walk back inside to get a refill before heading over the Pixar area. Okay. Now, suppose I finish my burger and one soda, ride the Backlot Tour, and then return to get my second cup of soda. Seems a bit shadier. But, those who object to me returning to the Express to get a second cup after riding an attraction would probably not object to a scenario in which, due to the Florida heat, I decided to stay inside the Express for a long, relaxed cheeseburger lunch while the rest of my family goes on the rides, and in the process I obtain 5 refills, watching the Star Wars show through the window, and researching hidden Mickeys on my iPad. Here 5 refills is okay, but if I leave and come back, 2 refills is not okay...? :brick: Obviously, the quantity of what is being taken, when there is no specific limit on quantity and multiple taking is permitted, is not the issue.

If I take 5 paper napkins, and only use 2, and pocket the remaining 3 to use later in order to avoid completely wasting them, that's fine. What if it were 10 napkins, or 20, or as someone previously posted, the entire container-full. No one person draws the line. To each his own. The only line-drawing authority would be Disney itself. :sohappy:
 

biggy H

Well-Known Member
Since the break even point on a mug (for the consumer) is 400 or so refills, there is no real "loss" for Disney to be concerned about.

You should not use the cost price of the drink to work out break-even for the consumer. If a re-fillable mug costs $12 and 1 soda costs $1.50 you save money after ony 8 sodas, a lot less than 400.....

It doesn't matter what the cost price is, possible loss of potential income is the actual cost the consumer pays. Its all due to the value of the product to Disney, it may only cost disney a few cents per soda but the actual loss is nearly $2 (or how much drinks cost at the moment). If everybody had to pay the full price for a 20oz soda the actual loss of income can been seen to be quite large.
 

Phonedave

Well-Known Member
Another thing to consider, is in what ways are every one of us guilty of some kind of "theft" along the same level of mug abuse?

I have said this all along, on many different threads on these boards.

I am a thief, and I admit it.

I have done a number of the things you have mentioned, and I fully admit it is stealing. I am comfortable with that, and I don't try to justify it.

What I have a problem with is when people try to justify their actions. "It's only 2 cents worth of soda" "WDW makes a ton of money" "Pool hopping does not hurt anybody"

To me, it's pretty simple.

1) Is there a rule against is ?

2) If yes, then you are stealing / cheating

3) If you are OK with that, then we can talk further. If you are not OK with admitting what you are doing is stealing / cheating then maybe you need to ask yourself why you can't admit to yourself what you are doing.

I also understand the whole thing you have with WalMart. I used to work in a grocery store many years ago, and we had the same policy. You could confront the person - as in "Excuse me, can I see your receipt" but we were not supposed to physically restrain them. Sometimes though that adrenaline kicks in and you find yourself chasing a guy down the middle of the street :)

-dave
 

tigger248

Well-Known Member
The Backlot Express at Hollywood Studios a refill friendly dining location - at least that's my assumption, because: (1) the soda machines are openly accessible in the dining room, (2) there are no signs suggesting no refills, and (3) it is generally understood in our dining culture that the combination of open soda machines-without notice of prohibition welcomes refills. So, suppose I am having a cheeseburger and orange soda, and consume two cups of soda with the bruger. Okay. Now, suppose I finish the cheeseburger and one soda and step outside to watch the Star Wars show, and then walk back inside to get a refill before heading over the Pixar area. Okay. Now, suppose I finish my burger and one soda, ride the Backlot Tour, and then return to get my second cup of soda. Seems a bit shadier. But, those who object to me returning to the Express to get a second cup after riding an attraction would probably not object to a scenario in which, due to the Florida heat, I decided to stay inside the Express for a long, relaxed cheeseburger lunch while the rest of my family goes on the rides, and in the process I obtain 5 refills, watching the Star Wars show through the window, and researching hidden Mickeys on my iPad. Here 5 refills is okay, but if I leave and come back, 2 refills is not okay...? :brick: Obviously, the quantity of what is being taken, when there is no specific limit on quantity and multiple taking is permitted, is not the issue.

That's sorta my logic acually...I don't see what the harm is if I use my mug for 2 vacations each lasting 5 days within the same calendar year. If I were going on one longer vacation, say 11 or 12 days, I would likely be obtaining more coke than my two 5 day vacations combined!

As I said before, I will not buy more than one of the same mug. I already make a pit stop at Wal Mart when we get into town to buy a case of bottled water ($5 for a case that will last the week is a lot more appealing than $2.50 a bottle). I suppose I will have to start picking up a case of coke while I'm there to drink in the room, which is really the only place I use the mug. Depending on where we stay it would be more convenient anyways...for example, both times we've stayed at SSR we have been ungodly far from their main building.
 

sbkline

Well-Known Member
I have said this all along, on many different threads on these boards.

I am a thief, and I admit it.

I have done a number of the things you have mentioned, and I fully admit it is stealing. I am comfortable with that, and I don't try to justify it.

What I have a problem with is when people try to justify their actions. "It's only 2 cents worth of soda" "WDW makes a ton of money" "Pool hopping does not hurt anybody"

To me, it's pretty simple.

1) Is there a rule against is ?

2) If yes, then you are stealing / cheating

3) If you are OK with that, then we can talk further. If you are not OK with admitting what you are doing is stealing / cheating then maybe you need to ask yourself why you can't admit to yourself what you are doing.

I also understand the whole thing you have with WalMart. I used to work in a grocery store many years ago, and we had the same policy. You could confront the person - as in "Excuse me, can I see your receipt" but we were not supposed to physically restrain them. Sometimes though that adrenaline kicks in and you find yourself chasing a guy down the middle of the street :)

-dave

I can totally respect your position, then. You probably can tell that I wasn't targeting you with my comments, then, since you aren't one of the vocal ones here against mug reuse. My comments were directed more at them, since they like to point the finger at "mug abusers" as if they had just robbed Fort Knox or something. For those people, I wanted to give them several common examples along the same level just to bring them down to Earth a little and get them to realize that they are every bit as guilty of "theft" as the mug abusers they like to condemn. And if any of them wants to tell me that they don't do any of the things I mentioned, then I'm either talking to a bald faced liar or I'm talking to Jesus Christ himself. :lol:

As much as I admire honesty and the desire to do the right thing, sometimes that zeal can be taken to far. My brother is a good example of this. One year, he and I and a friend went up to Six Flags. Along the way, I pulled off at a McDonald's to use the restroom. My brother made the comment "I guess I'd better buy something", to which I asked why. In his mind, to stop in at a restaraunt and use the bathroom without buying anything, constitutes theft, since you are flushing their toilet and running their sink and using their soap. Therefore, you are stealing water and soap unless you are a paying customer. In the strictest sense, I guess he's right, but I think he's taking it a bit too far, and I have no problem stopping in and using the restroom wherever it most convenient or accessible, be it a McDonald's, a gas station, or even a Red Lobster. :ROFLOL:

Even though I believe in God and that he's the absolute lawgiver, I really find it hard to believe that he's all that worried about "stealing" a handful of soap and whatever amount of water it takes to flush the toilet and wash your hands. Of course, I can't claim to know the mind of God and he's the judge, not me. But in the grand scheme of things, I just think some levels of "theft", such as the examples I gave, are to petty to register on anyone's scale. Especially when you really stop to think of the examples I give and examine yourselves, I think we'll all find that we're just a bunch of thieves, no matter how righteous we want to get when it comes to "mug abusers". So there has to be some kind of ability to "overlook" the petty instances, or we all deserve to be condemned as dishonest crooks.
 
Let they who have not used a Gas Station or Restaurant Restroom without purchasing anything be the first to speak up...

....... crickets .......

I think at some point, everyone, and I mean everyone has done something not above board at some point, and used some form of mental justification to tell themselves it's OK.

As for me, I'm off to McDonald's for Lunch to atone for my restroom sins during a previous long distance vacation drive. :ROFLOL:
 

sbkline

Well-Known Member
Let they who have not used a Gas Station or Restaurant Restroom without purchasing anything be the first to speak up...

....... crickets .......

I think at some point, everyone, and I mean everyone has done something not above board at some point, and used some form of mental justification to tell themselves it's OK.

As for me, I'm off to McDonald's for Lunch to atone for my restroom sins during a previous long distance vacation drive. :ROFLOL:


I hope you didn't use the restroom while you were there. Because, for such a heinous act of human depravity as using the bathroom without being a paying customer, the only way to truly atone for it is to forfeit your bathroom privileges on a visit when you ARE a paying customer. :D
 

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
I hope you didn't use the restroom while you were there. Because, for such a heinous act of human depravity as using the bathroom without being a paying customer, the only way to truly atone for it is to forfeit your bathroom privileges on a visit when you ARE a paying customer. :D
You could also purchase a second Quarter Pounder Value Meal with no intention of eating it. Maybe find a homeless person to give it to. I believe this would also suffice to balance out your McDonald's bathroom karma scorecard.
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
You could also purchase a second Quarter Pounder Value Meal with no intention of eating it. Maybe find a homeless person to give it to. I believe this would also suffice to balance out your McDonald's bathroom karma scorecard.

Nice.....

But in some nations wouldn't that be considered cruel and unusual punishment?
 

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