Star Wars: The Acolyte

[Willmark]

To what comment are you responding? Where have I tried to dictate what someone can do?

Perhaps you should examine the way much of the hyperbolic anti-TLJ crowd has tried to scream down debate.

I’ll avoid a personal critique and simply say your use of hyperbolic is a good choice of a word because the pro-TLJ crowd is just as guilty of it. There are fans that are fanatically defensive of TLJ. Go so social media around December 17th and there are legions of fans who get hyper defensive of any criticism of it.

Here’s the thing. Not everyone who dislikes TLJ does so for the reasons you might imagine. Perhaps it’s simply people want to be entertained. TLJ was not entertaining to some and set the direction Disney SW continues to take. That’s not the fault of fans, that’s on Disney. Whether or not you agree with that is irrelevant. A fan is under no reason to justify to anyone what they like or dislike.

I rate TLJ as the worst SW movie of all time and personally my least favorite movie of all time. But if someone draws the opposite conclusions? More power to them and great of they find enjoyment in it. It doesn’t effect my dislike.

Perhaps it’s because of this that the Acolyte doubles down on TLJ. Disney and its adherents say to a degree “we’re not caving to haters, blahs blah, etc” and lump everyone into the same bucket.

Then they turn around and act shocked that people are voicing their concerns ever more viciously when they were essentially baiting fans to begin with.

To close. The damage TLJ did to the franchise cannot be understated. Like it or not, love it or hate it. It splintered the fandom. Add to this the incoherent jump from each of the three movies. Again that’s on Disney, it’s their fault. Not the fans.

And really last part Disney is getting close to the point where even more fans are getting apathetic. I know I am. Question is are they going to pull in enough new fans?

They might. Then again they very well might not.

 

[erasure fan1]

You guys take any criticism of your version of Star Wars as an attack on your "fandom."

No we take it as an attack on us. Because that's what you do. You've called people naive, said they have hidden agendas...

You don't just say the Leia scene was consistent with the force powers we've seen. It might not have been filmed as well as could have...

You say "Fans desperate to be angry". Then try to act like you're being objective? No, you are extremely quick to jump down the throat of people who dare not share your opinion. You dismissed what I said about Kennedy and star wars not getting better until shes gone with, I don't like her because she's female. That's what you do, just own it.

 

[MagicMouseFan]

You go on and on about "quality storytelling" and then champion the EU as some sacred thing.

You're combining two different thoughts of mine. First, great storytelling wins over audiences, as seen with *The Empire Strikes Back* or *Heir to the Empire*. These are examples where the narrative quality stood out and resonated deeply with fans.

Second, I recognize that some fans are upset with the direction of Disney's Star Wars. Specific examples include the erasure of beloved elements like Mara Jade and Luke Skywalker's relationship, and the character development choices in Last Jedi.

These two points are distinct: one focuses on the importance of strong storytelling, while the other acknowledges specific fan frustrations with Disney's handling of the franchise. Both are valid concerns but address different aspects of the overall discussion.

 

[Vicarious Fan]

To close. The damage TLJ did to the franchise cannot be understated. Like it or not, love it or hate it. It splintered the fandom. Add to this the incoherent jump from each of the three movies. Again that’s on Disney, it’s their fault. Not the fans.

I'm old enough to remember when people said the same thing about the prequels, how it damaged Star Wars forever and would never be popular again, how the franchise was dead and this was the last nail in the coffin.

And yet here we are and Star Wars is more popular now then ever.

 

[Vicarious Fan]

You're combining two different thoughts of mine. First, great storytelling wins over audiences, as seen with *The Empire Strikes Back* or *Heir to the Empire*. These are examples where the narrative quality stood out and resonated deeply with fans.

Empire Strikes Back... the least succesful of the OT movies. Heir to the Empire... a book series only 1% of people who have seen Star Wars have read.

Second, I recognize that some fans are upset with the direction of Disney's Star Wars. Specific examples include the erasure of beloved elements like Mara Jade and Luke Skywalker's relationship

you admitted Disney didn't erase it. It was never canon to begin with.

 

[Willmark]

I'm old enough to remember when people said the same thing about the prequels, how it damaged Star Wars forever and would never be popular again, how the franchise was dead and this was the last nail in the coffin.

I must be one of those odd fans, I rank TPM very high and have Revenge of the Sith in my Top 5.

1. ESB
2. ANH
3. RO
4. Solo
5. Revenge
6. TPM

And yet here we are and Star Wars is more popular now then ever.

Is it though? By what metric?

 

[Vicarious Fan]

I must be one of those odd fans, I rank TPM very high and have Revenge of the Sith in my Top 5.


Is it though? By what metric?

now sure, however when the prequels came out they were hated beyond what the sequels got. The fanbase wasn't divided in their hatred, this is well documented.

Yes by literally every metric. More people are watching Star Wars media now then ever, there are more people who consider themselves fans then any other time in it's history. Not all of them like all of it but that's fine more people are still fans.

Why do you think Disney keeps pumping out Star Wars content faster then Marvel content now? If it was as bad as some people claim they would have pulled a Willow with it.

 

[Willmark]

now sure, however when the prequels came out they were hated beyond what the sequels got. The fanbase wasn't divided in their hatred, this is well documented.

IMO that is a function of social media. Back in 1999 it was dial up to join a chat room to discuss it. Now everyone can
send out something from their phone.

Why do you think Disney keeps pumping out Star Wars content faster then Marvel content now? If it was as bad as some people claim they would have pulled a Willow with it.

Why? Simple.

$

But perhaps not in they way you might imagine. Marvel has made Disney tons of cash. Has Disney made back what it took to purchase LF? At some point in the future they will, but to the best of my knowledge it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Vicarious Fan]

IMO that is a function of social media. Back in 1999 it was dial up to join a chat room to discuss it. Now everyone can
send out something from their phone.

If you are actually interested in seeing what it was like there are 2 documentries. The People Vs George Lucas and The Prequels Strike Back: A Fan's Journey, both do an excelent job of not just showing the hate online but at conventions and how fans reacted as well as among the general movie going audience.

The perceptiion changed because the kids that grew up watching The Clone Wars, well grew up and and they out number the OT fans. This is why in online polls now you often see the PT beating the OT as the most favorite Star Wars movies.

Why? Simple.

$

But perhaps not in they way you might imagine. Marvel has made Disney tons of cash. Has Disney made back what it took to purchase LF? At some point in the future they will, but to the best of my knowledge it hasn't happened yet.

thanks for proving my point... I mean to make money people need to watch and enjoy it, which they are.. in greater number then ever before.

Yes, they have, we know this. There were articles about this not long ago. Disney has made over 12 billion from Star Wars alone, that's 3 times what they payed for it. That doesn't include things like merch, dvd sales, or even revenue from Lucasfilm licensing or work ILM and SKywalker Sound do for other movies.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I’ll avoid a personal critique and simply say your use of hyperbolic is a good choice of a word because the pro-TLJ crowd is just as guilty of it. There are fans that are fanatically defensive of TLJ. Go so social media around December 17th and there are legions of fans who get hyper defensive of any criticism of it.

Here’s the thing. Not everyone who dislikes TLJ does so for the reasons you might imagine. Perhaps it’s simply people want to be entertained. TLJ was not entertaining to some and set the direction Disney SW continues to take. That’s not the fault of fans, that’s on Disney. Whether or not you agree with that is irrelevant. A fan is under no reason to justify to anyone what they like or dislike.

I rate TLJ as the worst SW movie of all time and personally my least favorite movie of all time. But if someone draws the opposite conclusions? More power to them and great of they find enjoyment in it. It doesn’t effect my dislike.

Perhaps it’s because of this that the Acolyte doubles down on TLJ. Disney and its adherents say to a degree “we’re not caving to haters, blahs blah, etc” and lump everyone into the same bucket.

Then they turn around and act shocked that people are voicing their concerns ever more viciously when they were essentially baiting fans to begin with.

To close. The damage TLJ did to the franchise cannot be understated. Like it or not, love it or hate it. It splintered the fandom. Add to this the incoherent jump from each of the three movies. Again that’s on Disney, it’s their fault. Not the fans.

And really last part Disney is getting close to the point where even more fans are getting apathetic. I know I am. Question is are they going to pull in enough new fans?

They might. Then again they very well might not.

I have very, very rarely seen hyperbolic praise of TLJ. The defenders are almost always responding to over-the-top criticism.

TLJ is as subject as criticism as any film. A poster pointing out that Rose was insufficiently realized as a character, or that there are narrative defects in the Holdo section, etc - those are meaningful criticisms that can be discussed. Declarations that it’s the worst film of all time, that Kennedy HATES Star Wars and the fans, that it destroyed the franchise - that’s hyperbole that guarantees debate will have absolutely nothing to do with the film. People are welcome to those opinions. And other people are welcome to be completely sick of the theatricality.

 

[Casper Gutman]

No we take it as an attack on us. Because that's what you do. You've called people naive, said they have hidden agendas...

You don't just say the Leia scene was consistent with the force powers we've seen. It might not have been filmed as well as could have...

You say "Fans desperate to be angry". Then try to act like you're being objective? No, you are extremely quick to jump down the throat of people who dare not share your opinion. You dismissed what I said about Kennedy and star wars not getting better until shes gone with, I don't like her because she's female. That's what you do, just own it.

I DID just say the Leia scene was consistent with the force powers we’ve seen. Not sure what you mean by that.

I’m not objective. But I think someone who WAS objective, looking at the disproportionate rage against TLJ and the toxic abuse heaped on some of its actors, might not disagree that fans really want to be angry.

What other film producers do you hate? For the record, I don’t think you hate KK because she’s a woman.

 

[mysto]

buddy... what are you talking about? George Lucas had Giant Space Worms living in asteroids that had smaller space bats that eat electricty... but Space Whales is too much for you?



Attach files

That is a really good point actually. I have an unresolved self awareness of my ability to suspend disbelief sometimes and not others. Maybe super cute heroines distract me.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Proving my point that if George had made the ST people would have hated it just as much seeing as it was Georges Idea to make Luke a hermit cut off from the force because of a failure.

The Last Jedi Understood George Lucas’ Star Wars Better Than What Came After | Den of Geek

The most controversial element of Star Wars: The Last Jedi came straight from George Lucas, and his Luke Skywalker was even more extreme.

www.denofgeek.com

And they may have…but that does NOT exonerate Disney.

Both they and George misread what at the time (1997) may have been the most dedicated fanbase in the world.

This has been made out to be the most complicated “simple” thing in the history of entertainment. Making movies that never felt natural and ignores obvious ways at payoffs.

Disney…is worse. Because they had the cautionary tale. And they said all the right things…I trusted them.

Clueless. No idea what they had.
Two morons that directed things that made no sense.

Princess Poppins is just the easy embarrassment to point to.

As far as Skywalker goes…

What did all these people agree on?
Gary Kurtz
Howard kazanjian
Frank Oz
Irvin kirschner
Marsh Lucas

??

Simple…that mark Hamill was the emotional background of the whole thing. Star Wars is nothing without him. He is the backbaone and the glue. Not hard to understand.

So for Disney…that is what you bought. Right up front. It is what it is. You want the legacy…then that was set. It wasn’t up to mismanaged Artistic license.

Very predictable mistake that should never have Happened.

You want to stab ford and OD fisher? Go ahead…it wasn’t about them.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I must be one of those odd fans, I rank TPM very high and have Revenge of the Sith in my Top 5.

1. ESB
2. ANH
3. RO
4. Solo
5. Revenge
6. TPM


Is it though? By what metric?

BS aside…Jedi was at a minimum the 2nd most important movie. Not because it was citizen kane…because if locked in the look and feel and wasn’t eclipsed in overall feel for the viewing audience for at least 10 years…maybe never.

Trashing of Jedi has become revisionist missing the forest for the trees.
But that is just an opinion…not a consensus like some of the awful others

 

[MagicMouseFan]

you mean the movies that he said he enjoyed? Yeah cool The only one he complained about was TFA which was because he didn't feel it was necessary to do a soft reboot of ANH, he thought it relied too much on nostalgia. TLJ however he loved and thought it was beautifully made. In fact TLJ was made from George Lucas's treatments, George wanted Luke to be withrdrawn from the force and a hermit after one of his students turned to the Darkside.

George Lucas,had mixed feelings about "Last Jedi." According to reports, Lucas thought the film was "beautifully made" but didn’t like story choices and direction. He appreciated the technical aspects and the craftsmanship but did not fully endorse the narrative decisions taken by director Rian Johnson. Lucas's exact opinions have not been extensively detailed, but his response suggests a level of admiration for the production quality while maintaining a critical stance on certain creative choices.

 

[erasure fan1]

Why do you think Disney keeps pumping out Star Wars content faster then Marvel content now?

Faster than marvel? Since ep9 we've had something around 23 marvel projects release and 12 or 13 star wars.

I DID just say the Leia scene was consistent with the force powers we’ve seen. Not sure what you mean by that.

You did say the first part, then ending with a snide because fans are desperate to be angry. It was framed not that fans can think it was a bad scene for a number of reasons. But as it's just blind nerd rage and people out to get Disney again.

What other film producers do you hate? For the record, I don’t think you hate KK because she’s a woman.

That's the problem with how you frame your arguments. I said the fan base can heal when Kennedy is gone. You came back with oh she's so bad because "" sorry I can't find the exact quote because it was modded. Implying that's why people hate her. I don't hate Kennedy. I truly believe she will be recognized as one of the best producers in history. That track record speaks for itself. At the same time I think she was a bad fit for star wars. I love Michael Jordan, he's the greatest player of all time, hands down in my opinion. Just because I thought he was terrible at baseball doesn't mean I all or sudden hate him. He just shouldn't have played baseball.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Faster than marvel? Since ep9 we've had something around 23 marvel projects release and 12 or 13 star wars.

You did say the first part, then ending with a snide because fans are desperate to be angry. It was framed not that fans can think it was a bad scene for a number of reasons. But as it's just blind nerd rage and people out to get Disney again.

That's the problem with how you frame your arguments. I said the fan base can heal when Kennedy is gone. You came back with oh she's so bad because "" sorry I can't find the exact quote because it was modded. Implying that's why people hate her. I don't hate Kennedy. I truly believe she will be recognized as one of the best producers in history. That track record speaks for itself. At the same time I think she was a bad fit for star wars. I love Michael Jordan, he's the greatest player of all time, hands down in my opinion. Just because I thought he was terrible at baseball doesn't mean I all or sudden hate him. He just shouldn't have played baseball.

I don’t remember the quotation you reference. If it existed I worded it poorly, because that’s not my opinion of you. However, a great deal of the hate (not all, as indicated above) directed at KK IS because of her gender - it’s why she gets targeted for so much more hate by SW fans then Iger.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Fans can fan however they want. You don’t get to dictate or tell team what they can or cannot do.

I mean you can try, and they can reject that right out of hand and would be right to do so.

I don’t think it’s wrong for anyone to like anything…

But that doesnt make opinions facts. The truth is whoever makes the best case

So if people want to laud subverting expectations in the last Johnson…I get that

But that doesn’t mean I’ll run cover for how terribly it turned out and the damage it caused the franchise

 

[erasure fan1]

I don’t remember the quotation you reference. If it existed I worded it poorly, because that’s not my opinion of you. However, a great deal of the hate (not all, as indicated above) directed at KK IS because of her gender - it’s why she gets targeted for so much more hate by SW fans then Iger.

The reason Kennedy gets more hate than Iger, is she's the face of the brand. I feel like Iger gets a lot of hate as well. The star wars hate just seems muted because how much hate he gets for the parks and everything else. It kind of drowns the star wars stuff out a bit in my opinion. I know there are people who dislike her because of he gender. I don't think that's any of the main people on these boards talking about star wars.

Maybe there are some, but I don't recall seeing it, so I don't think it's anywhere close to a majority. The vast majority of criticism I see here, boils down to how she's handled the brand. Things like lack of direction, story choices, handling of legacy content, hiring choices, and her handling of PR with the fans. All of which are very legitimate even if you don't see or agree with it.

 

[sedati]

Disney should not have removed Willow. The series was flawed, but also had some gorgeous and emotional scenes along with some great character arcs. The last two episodes were fantastic and I rewatched them several times before... I couldn't.

Like Acolyte it was hammered online before even airing and negative reviews seemed to explode faster than one could have watched the first episode.

Removing it gave the armchair warriors ammunition and motivation to shout things they object to literally out of existence. (Though there are rumors it my appear on one of the free-with-ad streamers)