Splash Mountain re-theme announced

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21stamps

Well-Known Member
No. Identifying the moment at which you decided to stop having a rational discussion and to start playing games.

It’s not a game. It’s a fact. Almost every single Disney movie prior to the 2010s can be seen as offensive if we really look at the story and origins.


I am asking why/how can we ask for the removal of one, possibly a modification of another one or two, but not re-do them all. Where is the line?


If you see that as an irrational discussion, then I’m sorry that you feel that way.
 

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
That is not how storytelling works. You lost your arugment long ago...again. But if you wanted to go that route, why does Louis not have a job? Or Ray or the cast in Mama Odie's house? They are anthropomorphic, so textiles are the deciding factor of jobs needed? What a weird road. You sidestepped again. You provide zero evidence other than you notice the Fox in Splash Mountain does not have a job. Hilarious.

You realize there are levels of anthropomorphism, right? If I'm following your line of logic correctly, Prince John shouldn't be levying taxes on the people of England, because lions don't actually use money, and they're not native to England.
 

SoupBone

Well-Known Member
I am asking why/how can we ask for the removal of one, possibly a modification of another one or two, but not re-do them all. Where is the line?


There is NO line, and this whole movement which will now fundamentally change Disney Parks will be fun to watch. I hope they push the absolute envelope when re-doing these attractions to the point that everything is so boring that Disney loses. They deserve every bit of what they get for this dumb decision.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
You realize there are levels of anthropomorphism, right? If I'm following your line of logic correctly, Prince John shouldn't be levying taxes on the people of England, because lions don't actually use money, and they're not native to England.

Yes, and you were asked within the peramiters of Splash Mountain how you know the characters are negative stereotypes and what is told and written in the publshed medium of the theme park attraction. You go in questioning the sociology and economy.

Besides your awfully racist conjectures that Brer Fox should get a job;
Your posts have yet to answer the questions asked when you claimed the characters in the ride feature many negative stereotypes of African Americans.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
You asked about other attractions, people have repeatedly pointed out times it has been mentioned, and even told you where you could find them, and you brushed it off.
Again, the search function is a thing that exists.

Yes, it was pointed out that Peter Pan and the Jungle Book may have “offensive scenes” modified.. I then asked ‘Why modified and not replaced?’ and ‘What about Cinderella?’

I do think I missed the responses..I’d appreciate if someone could quote them for me.
 

BromBones

Well-Known Member
I'm shocked, sad, but excited? Princess and the frog needed some love. It's such an underrated movie. There's a ton of potential for this. I hope they keep the ride length because that's one of my favorite things about it.

Or they could just take over Tom Sawyer Island and create a Princess and the Frog ride. The snack stand is already there and it is more like a bayou. ...and leave Splash Mountain the way it is. Tom Sawyer has really nothing to do with Disney anyway.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Ehh... The characters of Br'er Rabbit, Fox, and Bear are evocative of certain stereotypes of African-Americans, some of which aren't very flattering.


So your answer to this claim when asked from evidence within the ride that the characters you mentioned are negative racist stereotypes is that Brer Fox did not get a job? Instead he went hunting?

From an earlier post of yours:
"It's literally there in the ride. Rabbit runs away from home to find adventure, Fox tries to catch Rabbit to eat him instead of getting a job so that he has money to buy dinner, and Br'er Bear goes "duhhh..." in practically every other line of dialogue."

I have never heard a line of dialogue that says "I am not going to work, I am going to go hunting instead"
The other things are once again, character flaws, but do not imply they are all one race? It is an animal fable story so the characters have flaws.
That is not a racial thing and leaving home on an adventure and being big and stupid is not automatically a racial stereotype.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
There is NO line, and this whole movement which will now fundamentally change Disney Parks will be fun to watch. I hope they push the absolute envelope when re-doing these attractions to the point that everything is so boring that Disney loses. They deserve every bit of what they get for this dumb decision.

Someone who gets it!! This is where I’m leading.. IF all Classic Disney is taken out of Disney World/Disneyland.. leaving all attractions with film and character representations from the last decade alone.. then will Disney really be the “Disney” that everyone wants to visit?
Without the nostalgia, then it’s just a park, no longer that bond between generations.. which is what makes it so magical.
 

Flugell

Well-Known Member
As well as BLM which I absolutely agree with I think that from the U.K. and the USA we need to truly look at the treatment of native/ indigenous Americans who are still suffering as well. Read Dee Brown’s book Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. The opening page contains the saddest quote ever,
“The white man made us many promises but he kept but one, he promised to take our land and he took it.”
Absolute shame on all involved British, French and Americans amongst others. Another historical wrong that needs addressing and if that means changing rides at Disney then so be it. I don’t see the difference between destroying Splash Mountain for African Americans and reimagining Peter Pan, along with other rides for the Indigenous Americans.
 

BromBones

Well-Known Member
The same way that Mammy from Gone With The Wind is a stereotype despite being portrayed by a black actress.

Totally different. a) She was a character based on history in the old south. There were Black "Mammy's" in the south.
b) Hattie McDaniel won the Oscar, the first Black to win an Oscar for her role. So she took great pride in that role.
c) A talking fox is a made up character.
d) The tales retold in "Song of the South" were actual Black American Folk Tales.

"Uncle Remus is the fictional title character and narrator of a collection of Black American folktales compiled and adapted by Joel Chandler Harris and published in book form in 1881."

"
Uncle Remus is a collection of animal stories, songs, and oral folklore collected from southern black Americans. Many of the stories are didactic, much like those of Aesop's Fables and Jean de La Fontaine's stories. Uncle Remus is a kindly old freedman who serves as a story-telling device, passing on the folktales like the traditional African griot to children gathered around him.

The stories are written in an eye dialect devised by Harris to represent a Deep South Black dialect. Uncle Remus is a compilation of Br'er Rabbit storytellers whom Harris had encountered during his time at the Turnwold Plantation. Harris said that the use of the Black dialect was an effort to add to the effect of the stories and to allow the stories to retain their authenticity.[2] The genre of stories is the trickster tale. At the time of Harris's publication, his work was praised for its ability to capture plantation Black dialect.[3]

Br'er Rabbit ("Brother Rabbit") is the main character of the stories, a character prone to tricks and troublemaking who is often opposed by Br'er Fox and Br'er Bear. In one tale, Br'er Fox constructs a doll out of a lump of tar and puts clothing on it. When Br'er Rabbit comes along, he addresses the "tar baby" amiably but receives no response. Br'er Rabbit becomes offended by what he perceives as the tar baby's lack of manners, punches it and kicks it, and becomes stuck.[4]"

So I guess those Black Americans on the plantations who made up the stories were creating racial stereotypes too.

Learn history.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Entertainment does not exist in a vacuum.

Great quote, Now answer your incredibly racist answer to the question and defend your comment that Brer Fox is a racist stereotype against black people because he will not get a job. What leads you to this conclusion? Why would you say that? What tells you that the character is supposed to be of the black race and choose not to get a job. Your feelings are not evidence.
 
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21stamps

Well-Known Member
Entertainment does not exist in a vacuum.


Correct. And Disney’s biggest money maker, their princesses, are a horrible stereotypical view of women. Almost every one of them. Tiana included.
We tolerate them because we know they were from a different time.. when women were viewed differently.. BUT, we could say that they are still perpetuating stereotypes.. So, Do they stay or go?
 

BromBones

Well-Known Member
Correct. And Disney’s biggest money maker, their princesses, are a horrible stereotypical view of women. Almost every one of them. Tiana included.
We tolerate them because we know they were from a different time.. when women were viewed differently.. BUT, we could say that they are still perpetuating stereotypes.. So, Do they stay or go?

If Disney is going to eliminate everything that offends anyone...then the princesses have to go.
 

BromBones

Well-Known Member
You know they have to get rid of The Carousel of Progress...because the theme is "It's a great big beautiful tomorrow".... but for who?

They say it at the end of each scene and in the 1900s, 1920s and 1940s Black Americans were still being oppressed so it is really a "great big beautiful tomorrow" for them?

That is insensitive and needs to be removed......right?
 

SoupBone

Well-Known Member
Correct. And Disney’s biggest money maker, their princesses, are a horrible stereotypical view of women. Almost every one of them. Tiana included.
We tolerate them because we know they were from a different time.. when women were viewed differently.. BUT, we could say that they are still perpetuating stereotypes.. So, Do they stay or go?

Oooooooo, I like where this is headed. Like I said, there is no line. Nothing is safe now that Disney opened Pandora's Box. Can't wait to see how they change the princesses.
 
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