Splash Mountain re-theme announced

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orlandogal22

Well-Known Member
It's how Motown got started by Barry Gordy. Doo-Wop! Incidentally "The Mom" knows a lot about Doo-Wop. Gordy got Smokey Robinson to record an "answer song" to the Silhouettes hit "Get a Job".

OK. Yes. But what does Berry Gordy starting Motown after discovering the Miracles (and the subsequent "answer song") have to do with what you were discussing re: the white man in blackface. Genuinely, I'm not connecting the dots here.

(FWIW, I'm familiar with doo-wop too. Grew up listening to it practically 24x7 in the 70s and 80s as my uncle was an Oldies DJ.)
 

DubyooDeeDubyoo

Active Member
If all these people that claim to have all these deep seeded issues with the ride's (association) with racism, why have they gone to WDW and ridden it and spent hard earned $ on a company that supposedly hides racism in their rides? And assuming that by now they've already been made aware of the ride's connection with the controversial film.
There is a middle ground. Lots of people watch Shakespeare without agreeing with 17th century morals. I like the talking animals but gotta admit that the Uncle Remus book has enough uses of "the N-word" among other red flags that it shouldn't be celebrated with an E-ride. I think helping the case further is that kids don't know who Brer Rabbit is anymore, and it's hard to give them any context. Many people don't want to hand a bookful of broken English dialect and recurring a racial slur to kids who wonder what Splash Mountain is supposed to be about, and the movie's got it's own problems in addition to probably being boring.

It's sad to admit, but so much of the west side of the castle parks is steeped in cultures of white supremacy, as manifest destiny and the arrival of cowboys and the old west was not really a great time for other peoples. That doesn't mean Frontierland as a whole needs to go, but people need to think about the park and whether some things are outdated or a product of the company being driven by the vision of one white guy with a mostly white team of people.

The Simpsons just dropped white actors playing roles for non-white characters. If that standard was applied in the parks, you'd see a lot of changes. I'm surprised that Wally Boag's Jose has lasted this long.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
OK. Yes. But what does Berry Gordy starting Motown after discovering the Miracles (and the subsequent "answer song") have to do with what you were discussing re: the white man in blackface. Genuinely, I'm not connecting the dots here.

(FWIW, I'm familiar with doo-wop too. Grew up listening to it practically 24x7 in the 70s and 80s as my uncle was an Oldies DJ.)
My reply was to answer 21stamps concerning the Motown answer.
 

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
There is a middle ground. Lots of people watch Shakespeare without agreeing with 17th century morals. I like the talking animals but gotta admit that the Uncle Remus book has enough uses of "the N-word" among other red flags that it shouldn't be celebrated with an E-ride. I think helping the case further is that kids don't know who Brer Rabbit is anymore, and it's hard to give them any context. Many people don't want to hand a bookful of broken English dialect and recurring a racial slur to kids who wonder what Splash Mountain is supposed to be about, and the movie's got it's own problems in addition to probably being boring.

It's sad to admit, but so much of the west side of the castle parks is steeped in cultures of white supremacy, as manifest destiny and the arrival of cowboys and the old west was not really a great time for other peoples. That doesn't mean Frontierland as a whole needs to go, but people need to think about the park and whether some things are outdated or a product of the company being driven by the vision of one white guy with a mostly white team of people.

The Simpsons just dropped white actors playing roles for non-white characters. If that standard was applied in the parks, you'd see a lot of changes. I'm surprised that Wally Boag's Jose has lasted this long.
That’s some surface level thinking.
 

Musical Mermaid

Well-Known Member
Disney needs more than just one black centred story, and it’s going to need some that aren’t just modified European fairytales written by white dudes.

This. They found a Chinese heroine from a Chinese legend, they got Pocahontas from the actual Native American history, Moana was based upon Polynesian myths. There are plenty of Caucasian princesses from the European fairytales. And when they came out with Tiana? Were there any heroines from African stories in existence at the time? I bet there were, but Disney couldn’t be bothered to use them. Why? They took the easy way out, played it safe, and inserted an African-American into a European story and people said, “Hurrah, Disney, wow, you’re so diverse!” I don’t think that’s fair and they need to consider African cultural stories more and look for those heroines.
 

orlandogal22

Well-Known Member
There is a middle ground. Lots of people watch Shakespeare without agreeing with 17th century morals. I like the talking animals but gotta admit that the Uncle Remus book has enough uses of "the N-word" among other red flags that it shouldn't be celebrated with an E-ride. I think helping the case further is that kids don't know who Brer Rabbit is anymore, and it's hard to give them any context. Many people don't want to hand a bookful of broken English dialect and recurring a racial slur to kids who wonder what Splash Mountain is supposed to be about, and the movie's got it's own problems in addition to probably being boring.

It's sad to admit, but so much of the west side of the castle parks is steeped in cultures of white supremacy, as manifest destiny and the arrival of cowboys and the old west was not really a great time for other peoples. That doesn't mean Frontierland as a whole needs to go, but people need to think about the park and whether some things are outdated or a product of the company being driven by the vision of one white guy with a mostly white team of people.

The Simpsons just dropped white actors playing roles for non-white characters. If that standard was applied in the parks, you'd see a lot of changes. I'm surprised that Wally Boag's Jose has lasted this long.


Charles Ludwidge Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), who I studied extensively as an English undergrad, took nude photos of children as commissioned by their parents. I've seen the photos. While they were considered "art" then, they would get him arrested today.

If we're strictly going by guilt-by-association source material and original authors, I guess Alice is next on the chopping block.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
I wasn't referring to Azaria. I was referring to Apu.

He as a character is not hateful in my eyes, I was referring to some of the stereotypes under the current climate would be deemed offensive and not surive this attack on art and pop culture. If people really have a problem with it, than that is what would be asking of change, not caring that whoever voices it matches the lineage or skin tone. It is absurd. I think we are on the same page, I was just going around the point out the flaw in the argument and the snake of hate seeming to eat itself.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Charles Ludwidge Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), who I studied extensively as an English undergrad, took nude photos of children as commissioned by their parents. I've seen the photos. While they were considered "art" then, they would get him arrested today.

If we're strictly going by guilt-by-association source material and original authors, I guess Alice is next on the chopping block.

Nothing is different today. They got Paul Reubens (Known famously for his character Pee Wee Herman) back to voice Rex in Galaxy's Edge. Star Tours and Flight of the Navigator were pre knwoledge of what he was getting involved with. They knew better now not to need to cast him again and call him back.
No matter how you feel, that is a fact.
 

DubyooDeeDubyoo

Active Member
That’s some surface level thinking.
That's not a lot of depth yourself.
The west side of the park, especially in California, has been subject to the shifting sands of context for decades. Before starring the Uncle Remus characters, Splash's corner of Disneyland was about CBJ. Before CBJ, it was an "Indian Village." That corner of the park has been reckoning with cultural stereotypes since the orange grove disappeared.

Charles Ludwidge Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), who I studied extensively as an English undergrad, took nude photos of children as commissioned by their parents. I've seen the photos. While they were considered "art" then, they would get him arrested today.

If we're strictly going by guilt-by-association source material and original authors, I guess Alice is next on the chopping block.
I didn't judge Uncle Remus by what Joel C Harris did in his life, I judged his books by the text on the paper. If Alice was written as a nude model, you might have something.
 
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SilentWindODoom

Well-Known Member
He as a character is not hateful in my eyes, I was referring to some of the stereotypes under the current climate would be deemed offensive and not surive this attack on art and pop culture. If people really have a problem with it, than that is what would be asking of change, not caring that whoever voices it matches the lineage or skin tone. It is absurd. I think we are on the same page, I was just going around the point out the flaw in the argument and the snake of hate seeming to eat itself.
I never understood how Apu is bad.

As a Jew, Mort Goldman on Family guy doesn't offend me. It is cartoon comedy. Comedy can be crude and edgy. Its ok, we are supposed to be old enough to handle it

Okay. Cool. We're all on the same page. Most problems seem to come from people who look at him not as a human character and as a stereotype and then apply what they perceive he is to other people. Most complaints are not the cause of the source material, but douchebags who are just racist.
 

orlandogal22

Well-Known Member
Nothing is different today. They got Paul Reubens (Known famously for his character Pee Wee Herman) back to voice Rex in Galaxy's Edge. Star Tours and Flight of the Navigator were pre knwoledge of what he was getting involved with. They knew better now not to need to cast him again and call him back.
No matter how you feel, that is a fact.

I wasn't going to argue with you ;)

What I'm doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of cherrypicking.
 

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
That's not a lot of depth yourself.
The west side of the park, especially in California, has been subject to the shifting sands of context for decades. Before starring the Uncle Remus characters, Splash's corner of Disneyland was about CBJ. Before CBJ, it was an "Indian Village." That corner of the park has been reckoning with cultural stereotypes since the orange grove disappeared.


I didn't judge Uncle Remus by what Joel C Harris did in his life, I judged his books by the text on the paper. If Alice was written as a nude model, you might have something.
I was referring to your take on the Brer Rabbit stories. Their pieces of African American Folklore. To write them off completely because the white man that collected them used some slurs doesn’t show much intelligent thinking.

For the other points you addressed, you aren’t incorrect. Splash is the easiest target, but it’s not the most necessary target. Offensive stereotypes remain, while a ride that is merely guilty by association is in the execution chair.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
Yeah. I got that. But what are you trying to say specifically by posting those two songs back to back? Genuinely, I'm confused.
To demonstrate that the later song was an "answer song". "Get a Job" by the Silhouettes was a huge hit in 1958. They were one of many "one hit wonder" groups. "Got a Job" by the Miracles was nothing but a little "answer song" and got only a small amount of airplay.

But the head of the Miracles was Smokey Robinson who went on to become one of the greatest recording artists of all time:

 

orlandogal22

Well-Known Member
I didn't judge Uncle Remus by what Joel C Harris did in his life, I judged his books by the text on the paper. If Alice was written as a nude model, you might have something.

My ultimate point is folks are picking and choosing what elements to be offended by, what portions of source material and / or authors' backgrounds to be offended by, what words and / or images to be offended by, what they are perceiving the true intent behind those words, images, actions are to be offended by, etc.

It's all cherrypicking and selective outrage - and in the end, no one wins.
 

DubyooDeeDubyoo

Active Member
I was referring to your take on the Brer Rabbit stories. Their pieces of African American Folklore. To write them off completely because the white man that collected them used some slurs doesn’t show much intelligent thinking.
Oh okay. I've said before, many pages back, that I like the characters but wish Disney would hire some black writers to give them new stories outside of Harris's writing.
 

orlandogal22

Well-Known Member
To demonstrate that the later song was an "answer song". "Get a Job" by the Silhouettes was a huge hit in 1958. They were one of many "one hit wonder" groups. "Got a Job" by the Miracles was nothing but a little "answer song" and got only a small amount of airplay.

But the head of the Miracles was Smokey Robinson who went on to become one of the greatest recording artists of all time:



Ok....and.... so what if the Silhouettes version was a bigger hit? It was a better song. What's your point?

Edit: Really, I don't mean it in snark; I genuinely am not connecting the dots here between your previous post about the origins of Zip, etc. and Motown and these two songs.
 
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