Splash Mountain re-theme announced

[orlandogal22]

My reply was to answer 21stamps concerning the Motown answer.

Yeah. I got that. But what are you trying to say specifically by posting those two songs back to back? Genuinely, I'm confused.

 

[SilentWindODoom]

I was speaking of the writing and directing that has hateful things. Not Hank A.

I wasn't referring to Azaria. I was referring to Apu.

 

[orlandogal22]

There is a middle ground. Lots of people watch Shakespeare without agreeing with 17th century morals. I like the talking animals but gotta admit that the Uncle Remus book has enough uses of "the N-word" among other red flags that it shouldn't be celebrated with an E-ride. I think helping the case further is that kids don't know who Brer Rabbit is anymore, and it's hard to give them any context. Many people don't want to hand a bookful of broken English dialect and recurring a racial slur to kids who wonder what Splash Mountain is supposed to be about, and the movie's got it's own problems in addition to probably being boring.

It's sad to admit, but so much of the west side of the castle parks is steeped in cultures of white supremacy, as manifest destiny and the arrival of cowboys and the old west was not really a great time for other peoples. That doesn't mean Frontierland as a whole needs to go, but people need to think about the park and whether some things are outdated or a product of the company being driven by the vision of one white guy with a mostly white team of people.

The Simpsons just dropped white actors playing roles for non-white characters. If that standard was applied in the parks, you'd see a lot of changes. I'm surprised that Wally Boag's Jose has lasted this long.

Charles Ludwidge Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), who I studied extensively as an English undergrad, took nude photos of children as commissioned by their parents. I've seen the photos. While they were considered "art" then, they would get him arrested today.

If we're strictly going by guilt-by-association source material and original authors, I guess Alice is next on the chopping block.

 

[celluloid]

I wasn't referring to Azaria. I was referring to Apu.

He as a character is not hateful in my eyes, I was referring to some of the stereotypes under the current climate would be deemed offensive and not surive this attack on art and pop culture. If people really have a problem with it, than that is what would be asking of change, not caring that whoever voices it matches the lineage or skin tone. It is absurd. I think we are on the same page, I was just going around the point out the flaw in the argument and the snake of hate seeming to eat itself.

 

[aw14]

I wasn't referring to Azaria. I was referring to Apu.

I never understood how Apu is bad.

As a Jew, Mort Goldman on Family guy doesn't offend me. It is cartoon comedy. Comedy can be crude and edgy. Its ok, we are supposed to be old enough to handle it

 

[celluloid]

Charles Ludwidge Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), who I studied extensively as an English undergrad, took nude photos of children as commissioned by their parents. I've seen the photos. While they were considered "art" then, they would get him arrested today.

If we're strictly going by guilt-by-association source material and original authors, I guess Alice is next on the chopping block.

Nothing is different today. They got Paul Reubens (Known famously for his character Pee Wee Herman) back to voice Rex in Galaxy's Edge. Star Tours and Flight of the Navigator were pre knwoledge of what he was getting involved with. They knew better now not to need to cast him again and call him back.
No matter how you feel, that is a fact.

 

[DubyooDeeDubyoo]

That’s some surface level thinking.

That's not a lot of depth yourself.
The west side of the park, especially in California, has been subject to the shifting sands of context for decades. Before starring the Uncle Remus characters, Splash's corner of Disneyland was about CBJ. Before CBJ, it was an "Indian Village." That corner of the park has been reckoning with cultural stereotypes since the orange grove disappeared.

Charles Ludwidge Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), who I studied extensively as an English undergrad, took nude photos of children as commissioned by their parents. I've seen the photos. While they were considered "art" then, they would get him arrested today.

If we're strictly going by guilt-by-association source material and original authors, I guess Alice is next on the chopping block.

I didn't judge Uncle Remus by what Joel C Harris did in his life, I judged his books by the text on the paper. If Alice was written as a nude model, you might have something.

 

[SilentWindODoom]

He as a character is not hateful in my eyes, I was referring to some of the stereotypes under the current climate would be deemed offensive and not surive this attack on art and pop culture. If people really have a problem with it, than that is what would be asking of change, not caring that whoever voices it matches the lineage or skin tone. It is absurd. I think we are on the same page, I was just going around the point out the flaw in the argument and the snake of hate seeming to eat itself.

I never understood how Apu is bad.

As a Jew, Mort Goldman on Family guy doesn't offend me. It is cartoon comedy. Comedy can be crude and edgy. Its ok, we are supposed to be old enough to handle it

Okay. Cool. We're all on the same page. Most problems seem to come from people who look at him not as a human character and as a stereotype and then apply what they perceive he is to other people. Most complaints are not the cause of the source material, but douchebags who are just racist.

 

[orlandogal22]

Nothing is different today. They got Paul Reubens (Known famously for his character Pee Wee Herman) back to voice Rex in Galaxy's Edge. Star Tours and Flight of the Navigator were pre knwoledge of what he was getting involved with. They knew better now not to need to cast him again and call him back.
No matter how you feel, that is a fact.

I wasn't going to argue with you

What I'm doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of cherrypicking.

 

[Brer Oswald]

That's not a lot of depth yourself.
The west side of the park, especially in California, has been subject to the shifting sands of context for decades. Before starring the Uncle Remus characters, Splash's corner of Disneyland was about CBJ. Before CBJ, it was an "Indian Village." That corner of the park has been reckoning with cultural stereotypes since the orange grove disappeared.


I didn't judge Uncle Remus by what Joel C Harris did in his life, I judged his books by the text on the paper. If Alice was written as a nude model, you might have something.

I was referring to your take on the Brer Rabbit stories. Their pieces of African American Folklore. To write them off completely because the white man that collected them used some slurs doesn’t show much intelligent thinking.

For the other points you addressed, you aren’t incorrect. Splash is the easiest target, but it’s not the most necessary target. Offensive stereotypes remain, while a ride that is merely guilty by association is in the execution chair.

 

[Phil12]

Yeah. I got that. But what are you trying to say specifically by posting those two songs back to back? Genuinely, I'm confused.

To demonstrate that the later song was an "answer song". "Get a Job" by the Silhouettes was a huge hit in 1958. They were one of many "one hit wonder" groups. "Got a Job" by the Miracles was nothing but a little "answer song" and got only a small amount of airplay.

But the head of the Miracles was Smokey Robinson who went on to become one of the greatest recording artists of all time:

 

[orlandogal22]

I didn't judge Uncle Remus by what Joel C Harris did in his life, I judged his books by the text on the paper. If Alice was written as a nude model, you might have something.

My ultimate point is folks are picking and choosing what elements to be offended by, what portions of source material and / or authors' backgrounds to be offended by, what words and / or images to be offended by, what they are perceiving the true intent behind those words, images, actions are to be offended by, etc.

It's all cherrypicking and selective outrage - and in the end, no one wins.

 

[DubyooDeeDubyoo]

I was referring to your take on the Brer Rabbit stories. Their pieces of African American Folklore. To write them off completely because the white man that collected them used some slurs doesn’t show much intelligent thinking.

Oh okay. I've said before, many pages back, that I like the characters but wish Disney would hire some black writers to give them new stories outside of Harris's writing.

 

[celluloid]

I wasn't going to argue with you

What I'm doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of cherrypicking.

I was not arguing either. It was more open statement at the end for those who are shocked and could give passes to some and not to others as you note. Sorry if it seemed like it. I was agreeing with flaws in everyone exist still to this day.

 

[orlandogal22]

To demonstrate that the later song was an "answer song". "Get a Job" by the Silhouettes was a huge hit in 1958. They were one of many "one hit wonder" groups. "Got a Job" by the Miracles was nothing but a little "answer song" and got only a small amount of airplay.

But the head of the Miracles was Smokey Robinson who went on to become one of the greatest recording artists of all time:

Ok....and.... so what if the Silhouettes version was a bigger hit? It was a better song. What's your point?

Edit: Really, I don't mean it in snark; I genuinely am not connecting the dots here between your previous post about the origins of Zip, etc. and Motown and these two songs.

 

[celluloid]

There is a middle ground. Lots of people watch Shakespeare without agreeing with 17th century morals. I like the talking animals but gotta admit that the Uncle Remus book has enough uses of "the N-word" among other red flags that it shouldn't be celebrated with an E-ride. I think helping the case further is that kids don't know who Brer Rabbit is anymore, and it's hard to give them any context. Many people don't want to hand a bookful of broken English dialect and recurring a racial slur to kids who wonder what Splash Mountain is supposed to be about, and the movie's got it's own problems in addition to probably being boring.

Did you not see the lyrics by Randy Newman's famous songs, who did the music for Princess and The Frog that will be in the ride? N Words and other slurs all over. Your logic seems flawed.

 

[Brer Oswald]

Oh okay. I've said before, many pages back, that I like the characters but wish Disney would hire some black writers to give them new stories outside of Harris's writing.

That would have been the right way to handle this. I guess they still can in terms of cinema, but they likely never will because:
the almighty dollar >>> Justice and representation.

 

[Phil12]

Ok....and.... so what if the Silhouettes version was a bigger hit? It was a better song. What's your point?

Edit: Really, I don't mean it in snark; I genuinely am not connecting the dots here between your previous post about the origins of Zip, etc. and Motown and these two songs.

I didn't establish any connection between Motown and the origins of Zip. You'll have to ask 21stamps that question.

 

[21stamps]

I didn't establish any connection between Motown and the origins of Zip. You'll have to ask 21stamps that question.

Motown artists have covered that song. Most notably the Jackson 5, on their first album, which went to #1 on the R&B charts, and in the top 5 of the main billboard chart. We are supposed to believe that Motown, mainly Berry Gordy, and the Jacksons put out a racist record, or would even do such a thing given what they were trying to accomplish?

That’s what people like you are saying that we should believe.

 

[Phil12]

I don’t know the point of those videos?

I realize that the internet and current ridiculousness is telling us that the Zip Ah Dee Doo Da that we all know and love, is actually a racial injustice.....but, can we use common sense for one moment? Do we think the first black owned record label, fresh off and during the civil rights movements, and some of the first huge crossover black artists, would put out a song that had racist roots?

Do we really believe that? Can we believe that based on what we already know?

Barry Gordy would put out anything that would sell records and get airplay on the radio!