Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts IV

[Pentacat]

I still don't see the big concern but that's just my opinion I understand some have different thoughts on this

I personally don't care if they know my family went through the gate and first went to tomorrowland or that there are currently 500 people in the emporium, or I have a fast pass planned for haunted mansion at 1pm. No harm there and I'm not worried about joe bob working at the dumbo ride stalking my daughter because of nextgen.

You are still missing the point. The system is not intended to make your vacation "better" or to provide you with a more immersive experience. The system is intended to determine how much value you represent to WDW as a customer and then tailor your experience based on what revenue WDW can realize from your access to the park's assets.

Here's the scenario (I'm sure all of the apologists will paint this as some Dystopian nightmare that will never come true but just ponder it.)
Let's say that the system determines that you are a "low value" customer. That may be based on your previous spending on site, the discount that you booked your vacation under or any number of other metrics but it basically represents what your presence on property "costs" WDW. You then go to schedule a FP+ for an "E" ticket attraction, what prevents the reservation system from denying you a spot during a peak time because you've been tagged as a "low value" customer? Those "prime" ride times which are already well known to WDW and would be tiered out so that they can provide a "high value" customer access to that slot thus making THEIR experience better and rewarding them for paying full price or spending X number of dollars over a preset threshold. Now apply that same theory to every "resource" on property...shows, restaurants, etc. It's great for business because they can still offer publicly discounted vacations without those people that book that discounted rate to have the same "full" (ie expensive) experience as someone that paid rack rate for their room.

So, you're probably thinking I'll just opt out! They can't sort me as a tiered asset if I'm not wearing that magical manacle! First, if NGE is implemented in this way then they have fundamentally broken the system as it existed prior to FP+. Lines will be longer for stand-by, restaurants will have even less walk up availability and shows will be booked solid. Second, it sounds more an more like the magicbands are just a component of the tracking/human widget management solution they are building. How are you going to opt out of camera based face recognition? Hey, the next big thing coming to every WDW ticket vendor on I-Drive will be anti face recognition cream (aka sun screen.)

 

[ParentsOf4]

the first problem is no one around here has all the "facts" on this program...including me

That is the problem; no one in the public domain has all facts and Disney is never going to voluntarily disclose them, just like the NSA.

Many learned people are seriously concerned with the impact technology has privacy and are unwilling to accept the status quo. The question is: What to do about it?

Consider last year’s U.S. vs. Jones ruling where law enforcement placed a GPS device on a private citizen’s vehicle.

Justice Samuel Alito wrote:

“In the pre-computer age, the greatest protections of privacy were neither constitutional nor statutory, but practical. Traditional surveillance for any extended period of time was difficult and costly and therefore rarely undertaken. The surveillance at issue in this case — constant monitoring of the location of a vehicle for four weeks — would have required a large team of agents, multiple vehicles, and perhaps aerial assistance. Only an investigation of unusual importance could have justified such an expenditure of law enforcement resources. Devices like the one used in the present case, however, make long-term monitoring relatively easy and cheap. In circumstances involving dramatic technological change, the best solution to privacy concerns may be legislative.”

Similarly, Justice Sonia Sotomayor opinioned:

“More fundamentally, it may be necessary to reconsider the premise that an individual has no reasonable expectation of privacy in information voluntarily disclosed to third parties. E.g., Smith, 442 U. S., at 742; United States v. Miller, 425 U. S. 435, 443 (1976). This approach is ill suited to the digital age, in which people reveal a great deal of information about themselves to third parties in the course of carrying out mundane tasks.”

Alito and Sotomayor both suggest advancing technology poses new threats to our rights to privacy, the difference being Alito suggests the solution should be pursued through the legislative process whereas Sotomayor hints that the courts should intervene. The liberal Sotomayor goes one step further than the conservative Alito in suggesting “it may be necessary to reconsider the premise that an individual has no reasonable expectation of privacy in information voluntarily disclosed to third parties.”

Conceptually, what Disney is trying to do isn’t much different than what’s been slowly happening in the “digital age” for some time. What is different is the extent to which Disney is trying to do it. Concerns about this have existed for decades. Consider it was Justice William Douglas who wrote in 1969:

“Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order, to efficiency of operations, to scientific advancement, and the like. The cause of privacy will be won or lost essentially in legislative halls and in constitutional assemblies. If it is won, this pluralistic society of ours will experience a spiritual renewal. If it is lost we will have written our own prescription for mediocrity and conformity.”

The U.S. vs. Jones ruling uses the word “privacy” (as in “expectations of privacy”) 65 times. To think that a right to privacy doesn’t exist ignores modern American jurisprudence. As indicated by Alito’s and Sotomayor’s differing opinions, the extent to which such a right exists is largely influenced by one’s views but even both ends of the political spectrum acknowledge its existence.

In the case of WDW, one possible solution would be to require Disney to fully disclose in plain English what data it intends to collect and how it intends to use it. That way, each consumer could make an informed decision. As currently worded in its multipage “Terms and Conditions”, even we self-described WDW experts can only speculate what are Disney’s ultimate intentions. That in and of itself is evidence that Disney’s current level of disclosure is insufficient.

 

[WDWDad13]

You are still missing the point. The system is not intended to make your vacation "better" or to provide you with a more immersive experience. The system is intended to determine how much value you represent to WDW as a customer and then tailor your experience based on what revenue WDW can realize from your access to the park's assets.

Here's the scenario (I'm sure all of the apologists will paint this as some Dystopian nightmare that will never come true but just ponder it.)
Let's say that the system determines that you are a "low value" customer. That may be based on your previous spending on site, the discount that you booked your vacation under or any number of other metrics but it basically represents what your presence on property "costs" WDW. You then go to schedule a FP+ for an "E" ticket attraction, what prevents the reservation system from denying you a spot during a peak time because you've been tagged as a "low value" customer? Those "prime" ride times which are already well known to WDW and would be tiered out so that they can provide a "high value" customer access to that slot thus making THEIR experience better and rewarding them for paying full price or spending X number of dollars over a preset threshold. Now apply that same theory to every "resource" on property...shows, restaurants, etc. It's great for business because they can still offer publicly discounted vacations without those people that book that discounted rate to have the same "full" (ie expensive) experience as someone that paid rack rate for their room.

So, you're probably thinking I'll just opt out! They can't sort me as a tiered asset if I'm not wearing that magical manacle! First, if NGE is implemented in this way then they have fundamentally broken the system as it existed prior to FP+. Lines will be longer for stand-by, restaurants will have even less walk up availability and shows will be booked solid. Second, it sounds more an more like the magicbands are just a component of the tracking/human widget management solution they are building. How are you going to opt out of camera based face recognition? Hey, the next big thing coming to every WDW ticket vendor on I-Drive will be anti face recognition cream (aka sun screen.)

 

[71jason]

A tad extreme of an example but No, Cast Members should not have access to that kind of info.

Knowing some of the Cast Members we both do, I don't know that it's that extreme at all. (Not even talking about sexual predators, just ... the overzealous.)

Can't wait until a server figures out Johnny Depp's alias (or a kid from 1D or the Super Bowl winning QB) ... by dinner the next night, there will be a 500-person crowd outside the restaurant.

 

[ParentsOf4]

For those who claim that "You can track me because I have nothing to hide", shouldn't you really be thinking "I've done nothing wrong so I don't need to be tracked"?

Essentially, you're suggesting what U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Bradley wrote in 1886.

"It is not the breaking of a man's doors and the rummaging of his drawers that constitutes the essence of the offense; but it is the invasion of his indefeasible right of personal security, personal liberty and private property, where that right has never been forfeited by his conviction of some public offense."

 

[Astro Blaster]

Pentacat, sounds like we're thinking along the same lines. The thing I''m most concerned about with NGE is that I really have no interest in using it, and because of that my WDW experience will be negatively impacted.

I've been going to WDW for over 20 years now, and I rarely plan my trip beforehand. I have a general idea of what parks I want to visit, where I want to golf, what other "outside the parks" areas I want to visit, where I want to eat, etc....but the days and times are totally interchangeable. I'll admit that I don't know exactly how the MM+ stuff works/will work - since I realized almost immediately that I didn't care for it I've tuned out almost all news about it - but reserving a fastpass for Space Mountain a month in advance seems totally nonsensical to me. I don't want to be locked in in the Magic Kingdom/Tomorrowland/Space Mountain at a specific date and time.

So, now I get the feeling that "regular" fastpasses will be harder to come by, standby lines will be longer (although after fastpass was introduced I can't bring myself to wait in a line longer than 30 minutes), and yes, making same day or walk in dining reservations at good TS restaurants will be exceedingly difficult.

Putting aside all the privacy concerns, it just doesn't excite me. Is there any recourse?

 

[71jason]

This is insanely complex. It meshes with a few things Ive heard from friends here and there, especially the "forced migration" part, wherein Disney would text you things to your phone and tell you "hey, short line at XXXX" in some sort of effort to try and lead the crowd there. Only problem is, that is not likely to work.

This ^. No computer model, no reworking of FastPass, no Blue Ocean theory is going to change the fact that, on a slow night, 25,000 people want to watch fireworks in front of the Castle on MSUSA, then go to bed.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Just a thought...
Say you eat at a nice Disney restaurant one evening. The waiter, who unbeknownst to either you or Disney is a thief, notices that you and your wife have a lot of nice jewelry on for the evening.

Using his trusty device, he determines that you all have FPs tomorrow at Soarin at 11am, followed by lunch at Coral Reef.

Now he knows what room you are staying in, and that it will be empty tomorrow from at least 11am-1pm.

Good time to burgle that room.

Maybe an extreme example...but possible.

Anything is possible, but I like to work with probable. It is easier and way more accurate. It is possible that someone could find a way to sneak in a nuclear weapon in a diaper bag, but it's not probable so I won't be wearing my radiation proof jumpsuit when I tour the parks.

Oh, hell... now that I've made that statement I have left myself vulnerable to an attack. Why did I ever use social media to make that comment.

 

[doc_holiday3500]

Wow....I can't believe how quickly this thread has been growing - I'm having trouble keeping up.

I have to agree with @WDWDad13. There is a lot we don't know about the system (specifics on what/how it functions) but I can't imagine TWDC building a system which is made to punish "low value guests" who don't spend enough or whose entire goal is to solely increase revenue at the expense of the guest experience.

WDW needs happy guests on property to stay happy and leave happy so they are willing to tell their friends and family how much fun their vacations was so first-timers go and others return. Is it not possible that this system is two-pronged: 1.) to increase Disney's revenue stream and 2.) to genuinely improve guest experience as they have said?

 

[WDWDad13]

Wow....I can't believe how quickly this thread has been growing - I'm having trouble keeping up.

I have to agree with @WDWDad13. There is a lot we don't know about the system (specifics on what/how it functions) but I can't imagine TWDC building a system which is made to punish "low value guests" who don't spend enough or whose entire goal is to solely increase revenue at the expense of the guest experience.

WDW needs happy guests on property to stay happy and leave happy so they are willing to tell their friends and family how much fun their vacations was so first-timers go and others return. Is it not possible that this system is two-pronged: 1.) to increase Disney's revenue stream and 2.) to genuinely improve guest experience as they have said?

yes that's exactly what is it... but some have their blinders on regarding the "good" aspects of it


Example: How many of your enjoy running to Toy Story Mania or Soarin' at rope drop? This may be eliminated by NextGen

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Holy F***!!!

I'm totally ready to eat the $350 I spent to rent points for a short stopover next month. Serious as a heart attack. I don't want to be part of WDW's great science experiment in any way on any level.

@WDW1974 , that's seriously some scary sh**. Scary.

 

[luv]

I deleted my Disney app, lol.

Didn't use it anyway.

 

[Funmeister]

Holy F***!!!

I'm totally ready to eat the $350 I spent to rent points for a short stopover next month. Serious as a heart attack. I don't want to be part of WDW's great science experiment in any way on any level.

@WDW1974 , that's seriously some scary sh**. Scary.

Wait until they start the probes...

 

[Goofyernmost]

Essentially, you're suggesting what Justice Joseph Bradley wrote in 1886.

"It is not the breaking of a man's doors and the rummaging of his drawers that constitutes the essence of the offense; but it is the invasion of his indefeasible right of personal security, personal liberty and private property, where that right has never been forfeited by his conviction of some public offense."

There is a lot of truth to that statement, however, is there not a point in our currently electronically driven society where we voluntarily and excitedly gave up that privacy factor for our own benefit. If I didn't own a computer, credit card or a cell phone, the only way the government or private industry even knows I exist is because I pay taxes. I am not on anyone's radar and frankly, no one cares what I do, or for the most part even knows I exist. Once I decided to live in and partake of the technology of the electronic age, then one of the side effects of that lifestyle is that you're an open book. Ideal, no, not at all. But reality, you bet! You can fault Disney for taking advantage of the electronic age or the government for using it as a governing tool if you want, the blame falls on us and that ship has already sailed. It's been sailing for quite a while now.

Well, we didn't know that is how it was going to work? Too bad, that is how it works and we were too foolish to take it into consideration. The lights were shining to brightly. What's done is done.

I have to wonder, in this scenario is are we collectively sitting here and saying that we have just had an epiphany, after 30 plus years, about what was happening and are now out there attempting to close the barn door, even though the horse is already gone? Or are we just more upset about the alleged amount of money that is being spent on it that we mistakenly think would have gone to new attractions at WDW? I wonder how many people thought that television was just a fad and just would never catch on?

This technology is going to happen whether we like it or not. The bright side is that, in the case of Disney, we do not have to buy into it. We have no life threatening need to ever step foot in a Theme park, so forewarned, we can completely avoid this, so called, intrusion. I'm pretty sure that that yellowed piece of paper in the Library of Congress does not read..."the right to life, liberty and the god given right to go to Walt Disney World.

 

[WDWDad13]

This just in... as you check in at your resort (or at guest relations) ... guests are now going to be required to get a surgically implanted device for Disney to control your every move and thought within their parks.

On a good note, these will be done by the same sexual predator CMs who were going to be stalking us because of NextGen anyways so they'll get it over with quick.

I hear it's magical...but still not as good as Uni

 

[lspicknall]

How long do you think it will be before someone who opts out sues Disney because although they paid the same for their vacation, they were provided a lessor experience.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Wait until they start the probes...

They'll have to step foot outside their property to find me. Then, good luck as I'm armed.

 

[Pentacat]

Wow....I can't believe how quickly this thread has been growing - I'm having trouble keeping up.

I have to agree with @WDWDad13. There is a lot we don't know about the system (specifics on what/how it functions) but I can't imagine TWDC building a system which is made to punish "low value guests" who don't spend enough or whose entire goal is to solely increase revenue at the expense of the guest experience.

WDW needs happy guests on property to stay happy and leave happy so they are willing to tell their friends and family how much fun their vacations was so first-timers go and others return. Is it not possible that this system is two-pronged: 1.) to increase Disney's revenue stream and 2.) to genuinely improve guest experience as they have said?

You are not being punished. You are still entitled to the vacation that YOU paid for but YOU didn't pay what WDW considered full price for their product. In the past the technology did not exist to do this in a impersonal way which would have meant that it would have been done explicitly. That would have led to a bad customer service experience by telling discounted guests that they are not equal in the eyes of WDW. But now it can be done via technology so the average customer will have no clue that they are being tiered in any way.

 

[WDWDad13]

You are not being punished. You are still entitled to the vacation that YOU paid for but YOU didn't pay what WDW considered full price for their product. In the past the technology did not exist to do this in a impersonal way which would have meant that it would have been done explicitly. That would have led to a bad customer service experience by telling discounted guests that they are not equal in the eyes of WDW. But now it can be done via technology so the average customer will have no clue that they are being tiered in any way.

Kinda like how DVC or AP members get more discounts today than those staying at value resorts

or what about free dining... quick service for value resorts and plus dining for those above

how dare they

 

[Pentacat]

Kinda like how DVC or AP members get more discounts today than those staying at value resorts

or what about free dining... quick service for value resorts and plus dining for those above

how dare they

You are just proving my point. WDW has been doing this kind of affinity "tiering" for years and why exactly is that? Because they know that DVC members are the ones that bring in the most money. All the discounts that DVC members get are a drop in the bucket considering the consistent, predictable revenue that they generate.

The discounts like free dining are a necessary evil that were a result of the downturn in attendance following 9/11. TWDC as been trying to find a way to reduce their impact on the bottom line without the bad publicity associated. NGE is the path to that.