Spirited News & Observations II -- NGE/Baxter

[lazyboy97o]

Mostly because I find it to be an enormous misuse of funds. At a time when there are so many aspects of the parks that are in need of attention (refurbing, updating, additions, etc.) spending well over a billion dollars on an enormous data mining scheme offends me down to my park-loving core.

As somebody who also really dislikes the preplanning aspects I am not sure how much of the expense could have been avoided. I think a lot of the infrastructure upgrades (like so many around property) were going to have to occur at some point lest Disney not be able to keep up with changing expectations of the hospitality industry or be stuck maintaining a dying system. Others have already been offering these types of services to great fanfare. I really do think touch-to-enter hotel rooms and touch-to-pay systems are going to be wide-spread expectations. It's also not much new over the existing system where one card can be used as your hotel key, admission media and payment medium.

Where I think Disney is foolish is in their belief that they can leapfrog everybody else who has been moving forward in these directions and so improve upon the concept that it in of itself becomes a large draw to vacationing at Walt Disney World. It's Pleasure Island all over again. They've abandoned what was their (attractions, service, physical experience) in the hopes that what is to come will be something better.

 

[wannab@dis]

Mostly because I find it to be an enormous misuse of funds. At a time when there are so many aspects of the parks that are in need of attention (refurbing, updating, additions, etc.) spending well over a billion dollars on an enormous data mining scheme offends me down to my park-loving core.

In my mind, the whole thing is one giant example of how they just don't get it.

(Plus, I oppose anything that can possibly penalize me for not booking my trip, meals and rides way in advance. Sounds horrible.)

I think we'll see return on this investment. Hopefully some of those returns are invested back into the parks on the things you want. I see many "data mining schemes" here that are non-intrusive, good for the customer and the business, and has potential to improve guest experiences. I do think it will take some time for it to be rolled out and I think there will be bumps in the road.

I see a plus for those that don't plan in advance. Simple example... you're in the park and want to get dinner. Right now, you have to head to guest services or call someone to see where you could go. The new mobile services could quickly show you all the locations with reservations open in the next hour sorted by those closest to your location. Click a button, reserve the table, head over for dinner. Simple, quick and no hold music.

Another example... you're in Mouse Gear looking around and on the bubble of buying something but decide not to. You walk out the door and a minute later get a text with a coupon for 10% discount on Mouse Gear merchandise. You turn around, buy that retro shirt, Disney makes a sale, you got a discount (and a cool shirt).

 

[Rodan75]

Mostly because I find it to be an enormous misuse of funds. At a time when there are so many aspects of the parks that are in need of attention (refurbing, updating, additions, etc.) spending well over a billion dollars on an enormous data mining scheme offends me down to my park-loving core.

In my mind, the whole thing is one giant example of how they just don't get it.

(Plus, I oppose anything that can possibly penalize me for not booking my trip, meals and rides way in advance. Sounds horrible.)

Originally I thought the billion dollar price tag included a significant overhaul to the back end systems and the RFID/FP+ aspects were just fancy techie stuff to help get the project sold. But if they are just building an integration layer with several old systems, I can't imagine that it will be worth it. It will always be slow.

On the misuse of funds aspect, a reservation/POS system is foundational to being able to run a resort that is as expansive as WDW. So I get the reason why they did it, in lieu of rides and enhancements. But it sounds like they spent a lot of money to add an integration layer.

 

[sshindel]

Originally I thought the billion dollar price tag included a significant overhaul to the back end systems and the RFID/FP+ aspects were just fancy techie stuff to help get the project sold. But if they are just building an integration layer with several old systems, I can't imagine that it will be worth it. It will always be slow.

On the misuse of funds aspect, a reservation/POS system is foundational to being able to run a resort that is as expansive as WDW. So I get the reason why they did it, in lieu of rides and enhancements. But it sounds like they spent a lot of money to add an integration layer.

See, this is what I was thinking as well. The pricetag here was basically mainly to update/replace their underlying legacy systems, which would have to be done at some point. Adding the mining/analysis features on top are what helped sell the project the bean counters.

 

[flynnibus]

I felt the data mining piece was really only the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Well there is still the issue of the chicken and the egg.. which came first? Infrastructure consolidation or new business initiatives that requires the infrastructure to be consolidated?

I'd wager it was the latter.. and it becomes the justification on why you should overhaul all this stuff 'now' and not later. And I agree I'm sure a huge portion of the spend is in that backend overhaul and not on the actual business intelligence stuff that will ride on top of it.

But the scale of everything in this (every PoS terminal, every ticket counter, every hotel desk, every hotel door, etc) is pretty mind boggling. Even something done 'cheap' gets expensive at that kind of scale.

There are no cost breakdowns.. there is very little info out there about total spend on this except reports of 800 million to 1 billion in spend.. and wdw1974's reports of massive cost overruns to 1.5 billion or more.

 

[ScoutN]

I'm not implying transfering at all - I'm talking about the constraints on regular CMs - not CPs.. regular CMs have minimum service before they can transfer AND get frownie points for leaving and trying to rehire.

A CP isn't looked down upon for leaving the company.. because they are on a fixed contract to start with. Transfer isn't as big a deal to them because of their short stay.. so transfers are kind of moot.

And that time lost from school or an actual interested field hurts the individual. Someone who would excel in stage lighting being put behing a QS counter kills motivation. Which can equal a crappy employee review. That happens more times than you would care to know and hurts someone more by doing it. CP is nothing more than a cheap labor source and is why several areas do not hire regular employees.

 

[sshindel]

But the scale of everything in this (every PoS terminal, every ticket counter, every hotel desk, every hotel door, etc) is pretty mind boggling. Even something done 'cheap' gets expensive at that kind of scale.

Agreed. I can't even fathom trying to hit this all at once. At work, we're trying to integrate 3 legacy systems into one new system, and the pricetag on that sucker is many years and many millions of dollars (if we're done in a decade, I'm popping champagne).

 

[lazyboy97o]

But the scale of everything in this (every PoS terminal, every ticket counter, every hotel desk, every hotel door, etc) is pretty mind boggling. Even something done 'cheap' gets expensive at that kind of scale.

Just to help add some perspective, there are about 28,000 Disney hotel rooms at Walt Disney World. Is the lock to your hotel room something you want Disney to go cheap on?

 

[MattM]

I was going to stay out of this debate other than to point out the irony since it's impossible to know what happened and to what extent it's an issue. First, I haven't seen specifics on the issue, so anything said is speculation. But, that doesn't seem to stop those that WANT to see this system fail. Why? I'm not sure.

If it's true that profiles belonging to other users are being seen, then it's possible there's an issue in the authentication services. Standard practice is to transmit true authentication information as little as possible. This would include the email address / password combo to sign into the system. Once sent, the normal practice is to use authentication ticket / tokens for future requests within the same session.

This problem may be due to an issue at the token level... with a token not being globally unique within the system. Disney uses a single sign on authentication method for a single account login to access multiple systems. Basically each user interface system takes the authentication data, transmits it for authentication, retrieves a token, and then uses that token to retrieve data from the backend systems. Normally, the token system is a singular module within the n-tier application that receives requests from multiple UI locations -- website, kiosks, mobile site, apps, etc. However, it's possible they created multiple modules for authentication for different UI systems. If so, the token may not be truly unique across all systems. So, a mobile app user gets a token of 123456789 that is connected to user ABC and a website user gets a token of 123456789 for a different user. Basically, the token is unique within the specific UI system, but not within the token cross reference for the backend system. This could explain the profile issue being reported.

As Flynn has already noted, an issue such as this could be introduced from multiple teams writing different parts of the system without access to singular modules usable for multiple teams. If this happened, it was probably due to trying to get the systems created by multiple teams to reduce application development timelines. Again, each team tested their systems without problems, but the unit tests were not built for combined system usage. I'm not downplaying the issue, just speculating on a possible cause. If this speculation is close to accurate, the good news is it's easily (design, not necessarily implementation) fixed by implementing a singular authentication token system shared by the different UI systems.

Finally, for full disclosure, I do not work for anyone remotely connected to NextGen...

This is the face I made while reading that post

 

[Lee]

We don't fully know how they will handle incorporating locals and AP holders into the NextGen system. You and your buddy choose to extrapolate the absolutely most negative/cynical scenario and broadly condemn the entire system based on your conjecture. Maybe you're right, maybe not.

Well...we'll see. I hope you are right. Really, I do.
But until I learn differently, I'm going to assume the worst and hope to be surprised. If you want to be optimistic about it, that's cool.

Disney has decided to invest what is to all intents a relatively modest amount of their overall revenue stream into what appears to me to be a fairly ambitious new approach to a very broad range of the day-to-day operations of WDW and potentially other resorts in future. The fact that you and '74 don't understand every aspect of the system they are building apparently is too much for you so you've turned into petulant children creaming "I don't like it!" and stomping your feet.

Well, that's a bit harsh.
If I want to make a judgment on what I see, that's my prerogative. No law says I have to like everything Disney does. Is it wrong to be skeptical or a little bit mistrustful? Sure seems so...

Anyone who sees past the minor set-backs [which can reasonably be expected in such a massive undertaking] and suggests that there is some pretty amazing potential in the proposed system are belittled as pixie-dust-snorting fanbois.

Nonsense.
If you like what they are doing...fine. That's ok. You haven't heard me belittle anyone for their opinion.

Perhaps, God forbid, it's you and Spirit who "just don't get it"?

Perhaps...though I highly doubt it.
But it goes both ways. I don't have to like it, you don't have to dislike it. Doesn't make either of us wrong.

 

[wannab@dis]

I think a lot of the infrastructure upgrades (like so many around property) were going to have to occur at some point lest Disney not be able to keep up with changing expectations of the hospitality industry or be stuck maintaining a dying system. .

And I agree I'm sure a huge portion of the spend is in that backend overhaul and not on the actual business intelligence stuff that will ride on top of it.

But the scale of everything in this (every PoS terminal, every ticket counter, every hotel desk, every hotel door, etc) is pretty mind boggling. Even something done 'cheap' gets expensive at that kind of scale.

These are two points that I think are crucial for breaking down the reported $1.5B. Many of the systems being touched by this initiative have limited life expectancy even under the current system. The backend reservation systems, data centers, point of sale systems, door locks, terminals... they are all items that have to be updated / replaced whether you change the method of operations or not. More than likely a large percentage of the NextGen budget would have been spent on simple upkeep of the mechanics of such a large system (probably over a longer period tho). They saw this, realized they could turn that necessary expense into something they could market as an improved guest experience with with the NextGen additions and hopefully, see some ROI by adding in Business Intelligence systems (aka data mining) across the data warehouse. Using BI within large retail data systems is not groundbreaking... Kroger has been doing it for years.

 

[wannab@dis]

If you like what they are doing...fine. That's ok. You haven't heard me belittle anyone for their opinion.

You may be correct in that YOU haven't belittled someone, but you lead the cheerleading for others that do.

 

[xdan0920]

You may be correct in that YOU haven't belittled someone, but you lead the cheerleading for others that do.

No dog in this fight, but you all (aside from @Lee ) spend a lot of time belittling each other. Quite frankly, it's exhausting.

 

[Monty]

Well...we'll see. I hope you are right. Really, I do.
But until I learn differently, I'm going to assume the worst and hope to be surprised. If you want to be optimistic about it, that's cool.

Well, that's a bit harsh.
If I want to make a judgment on what I see, that's my prerogative. No law says I have to like everything Disney does. Is it wrong to be skeptical or a little bit mistrustful? Sure seems so...


Nonsense.
If you like what they are doing...fine. That's ok. You haven't heard me belittle anyone for their opinion.


Perhaps...though I highly doubt it.
But it goes both ways. I don't have to like it, you don't have to dislike it. Doesn't make either of us wrong.

Yes I was a bit harsh, partly to bring home my point that taking the absolute extreme cynical viewpoint and presenting it as truth for all purposes of discussion skews the discussion into an unreasonable "Black vs. White" argument, instead of fostering a reasoned discussion.

Feeding and perhaps encouraging the paranoid delusions of a few posters that tag along with the cynicism unchecked actually detracts from your occasional more rational arguments.

 

[Lee]

You may be correct in that YOU haven't belittled someone, but you lead the cheerleading for others that do.

I support ideas and people that I agree with.
I don't bother myself with worrying about whether or not someone feels "belittled".

Though, to be honest, some deserve a bit of tough love...

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

This is the face I made while reading that post

This accurately describes about 90% of the thread at this point.

 

[Genie of the Lamp]

This accurately describes about 90% of the thread at this point.

I'd say 40-45% on this point (just seems higher as you move through the thread pages). BTW, since it deals with NGE/MM+, I found and posted this quote in the Story Maker thread up now from StitchKingdom: "Speaking of achievements, we have also seen some recent movement on the Walt Disney World NextGen front with an additional trademark registration for ‘Story Maker’ (one was previously filed for ‘My Story Maker’). We believe this to be related to the ‘Story Author’ patent we described here which will use guests’ MagicBand bracelets to track which attractions a guest has visited and automatically collect video and photos and compile a ‘storybook’ akin to an achievement such as riding all of the Magic Kingdom mountains, or a birthday memory which can than be used as an upsell in merchandising, as part of the total ‘My Disney Experience." Anyone care to elaborate past these details given based on what this will accomplish?

 

[George]

I kind of like the back and forth of our extremely specific Disney fan discussions. I sometimes feel like I miss things......I haven't felt like anyone was belittled. I actually like Misters WDW1974 and Flynnibus (at least the digital versions of each I'm aware of). I kind of thought the discussion of Mr. Flynnibus and his whether or not he had any ties to NextGen was over (though its conclusion was not satisfactory to all involved, but that is an impossiblity in RL unfortunately) and we had moved on. I don't like it when people call out other posters or reference specific personality traits (i.e. calling someone OCD or judgemental), but most of the insults I've seen or at least straightforward. I feel like @Lee actually defuses situations from time to time (so does @Monty). I have a tendency, when things seem to be getting a little nasty, to distract with a silly joke (I've been off the boards for a few years and just resumed posting from time to time in the last month. The last time posted crap we didn't even have "like" buttons and we had little photoalbums). I generally like people and have on occasion this month, even liked posts I didn't agree with just because I thought the author did a really good job with the argument. I suppose I don't have a big point here, except the drama tends to go right by me and perhaps, this is my odd way of participating in it.

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

Kinda like checking in at the local bar and getting awarded "mayor" on ....what is it, Foursquare? gawd, I can't keep up with all this social networking. The more connected my friends and I become, the less I actually SEE them. So annoying.

Anyways. Sounds... meh, not something that I would necessarily care about. There's enough to do in the parks than worry about collecting 'achievements'.

To each their own?

 

[wm49rs]

You may be correct in that YOU haven't belittled someone, but you lead the cheerleading for others that do.

Oh, the irony....