Spirited News & Observations II -- NGE/Baxter

[flynnibus]

Please stop pretending MM+ is "optional". Buried within the pages of declaimer is the following

Did Disney force you to use their online application? no
Are you unable to make ADRS without the online applicaiton? no
And you misapply the stuff you quoted. Yes, by OPTIONALLY joining the myexperience website and app you have agreed to those terms. But no didn't have to join that myexperience app or website - you chose to.

All ticket media is going to be the tagged type. Iger didn't say you'd get different tickets - he spoke to what Disney collects and how you control what information you provide.

He never said you were gonna keep your paperticket...

And further:

Of course, Disney gets to decide what's "material".

Absolutely standard language - the same type of stuff you see in any policy. They aren't going to lock themselves into something permanent at one point in time.

When he wrote "Guests can enjoy admission to the park without having to register", Iger really did mean that the only thing guests who don't sign-up for MM+ will be guaranteed is theme park admission.

The concept that MM+ is "optional" is a joke.

Disney doesn't require you to use their onsite site to make reservations, book trips, or visit the parks. You're upset that 'all online' activities are being rolled into one.. instead of keeping them separate.

 

[WDW1974]

Hahaha, you're booking another cruise while DH was thinking of trying to get out of our next month! Those are some nice itineraries for next year. We are strongly considering the one out of San Juan.

I honestly have no recall of actually doing so ... it was like another Spirit took control and said 'those MAGICal cruises out of San Juan sound intriguing!' ... Sometimes I just don't know what comes over myself.

 

[tracyandalex]

I now am unbable to access my reservations online unless I agree to "Disney Park Experience Terms and Conditions"
which includes granting Disney permission to use RFID devices. That's relatively new.

So much for MyMagic+ being "optional".

I really get a kick out of the Terms & Conditions page's banner:

PLEASE READ THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS CAREFULLY.

This is followed by 11 pages of disclaimer. How many people are going to read all that?

Sure, MyMagic+ is "optional".

I got suckered into accepting a few weeks ago when we booked a room. My Disney experience is kinda cool, but I don't see how it was necessary and I find it harder to navigate than the previous site. Also, we have APs so I'm not sure what anything that I agreed to (no I could not read all 11 pages) means for us.

 

[WDW1974]

Absolutely standard language - the same type of stuff you see in any policy. They aren't going to lock themselves into something permanent at one point in time.

It is 69 degrees here in paradise and rainy and gloomy and FINALLY feels a bit like winter and I intend to start a four-day holiday weekend within the hour. So, as it seems is usual, Flynn, you'll likely have the bully pulpit for as long as you want to pontificate.

And I'm not going back and forth on whether you will be tracked at WDW with or without MM+, you KNOW the techonology far better than most here and what can be done. @ParentsOf4 understands quite well what the so-called 'opt out' really means. NOTHING.

It's the statement above that I take issue with, not because you aren't 100% correct -- you are, but because it exists at all.








... so the floor is all yours Flynn ... winter is finally sorta here and I'd like to enjoy it!

 

[ParentsOf4]

Did Disney force you to use their online application? no
Are you unable to make ADRS without the online applicaiton? no
And you misapply the stuff you quoted. Yes, by OPTIONALLY joining the myexperience website and app you have agreed to those terms. But no didn't have to join that myexperience app or website - you chose to.

No, I bought old-style WDW tickets before MM+; I created an online account before MM+; I booked an online reservation before MM+. Now Disney is saying I better agree to MM+ or my tickets (when FP and the standard entrances go away) and my resort reservation (because I now can no longer check-in online) will be diminished.

Not being able to use FP in a few months is material. Not being able to use my old style tickets for admission in a few months is material. Not being able to check-in online today is material. Did I receive, as promised by the "Terms and Conditions", an email notification of these "material" changes? No. Disney gets to decide what's material.

The page-after-page of loosely worded terms and conditions, that allows Disney to interpret MM+ pretty much any way they want, are a joke.

The concept that MM+ is optional is a joke.

 

[flynnibus]

It's the statement above that I take issue with, not because you aren't 100% correct -- you are, but because it exists at all.

What alternative would you suggest? That all contact between a customer and company automatically stop anytime a privacy policy is required? How would you suggest necessary changes in policy be allowed and executed?

What is wrong with the current model, which generally is.. we change the terms.. we notify you.. you have the option to agree, or leave.

What change process would you prefer?

Don't confuse this with 'rules I don't think you should be allowed to make to begin with'. We are talking how to handle CHANGE here - not what they can do in the first place. What they can do or not is not relevant to the text in question.

Yes, I'd rather focus on the Carnival Triumph because my good old pal Jeff Zucker believes it's the only story worth covering, yet his network (CNN) doesn't want to get to the heart of the matter -- and criticize a multi-billion global corporation in Carnival Corp -- that you essentially SIGN YOUR LIFE AWAY AND ANY AND ALL RIGHTS when you get on a cruise ship in the USA (even those MAGICal Disney ones)

Ok, what would you prefer to have happened differently? If you want to complain about process - lets be specific.

The story to date isn't how they are being compensated.. the story has been about the conditions on board the 'hardships' people have to deal with because they can't get somewhere on time.

If you want to harp on how they are being compensated for their experience.. that is a god awful slippery slope. The people are already having all their cruise fees refunded, new travel expenses covered, and credits for future trips.

Lost in all of this - is the fact that a major disaster was adverted and no one was hurt. Fire at sea is a deadly situation. Instead we focus on the inconvenience of having to in a bucket and not get the meals we desire.

Who do we sue for 'inconvenience' when natural disaster strikes and heaven forbid people don't get coddled.

 

[Monty]

If you choose not to participate in MM+ you don't have to. There is nothing that requires Disney to maintain what they consider to be antiquated systems to keep you happy. So if your choice results in you having a diminished experience as a result, you have the option of accepting that, deciding to accept MM+ or taking your business elsewhere.

Disney will carry on quite content regardless which option you choose.

 

[flynnibus]

No, I bought old-style WDW tickets before MM+; I created an online account before MM+; I booked an online reservation before MM+. Now Disney is saying I better agree to MM+ or my tickets (when FP and the standard entrances go away) and my resort reservation (because I now can no longer check-in online) will be diminished.

Not being able to use FP in a few months is material. Not being able to use my old style tickets for admission in a few months is material. Not being able to check-in online today is material. Did I receive, as promised by the "Terms and Conditions", an email notification of these "material" changes? No. Disney gets to decide what's material.

Disney did notify you - they notified you right there on the webpage you are complaining about. You had the choice to accept it and continue, or not accept the new terms and discontinue your use of the online services. You could still use those tickets, you could still use those reservations. The terms for the online services changed, not the terms of what you purchased.

You sound like you are resisting the change itself - not that you weren't notified or other angles you are trying to drag up. You want the old model to continue in paralell if you so chose it. Sorry, that's not what was said, nor is that what you are trying to nitpick.

 

[ParentsOf4]

You sound like you are resisting the change itself - not that you weren't notified or other angles you are trying to drag up. You want the old model to continue in paralell if you so chose it. Sorry, that's not what was said, nor is that what you are trying to nitpick.

The only one nitpicking here is Disney, who is trying to baffle its "guests" with mind-numbing pages of legalese. You and I already have gone 10 rounds on this topic and you know perfectly well my concerns with RFID technology. My concerns are no different than numerous other national organizations that oppose their use on humans.

I simply want to be able to visit WDW without being tracked.

The "CONVERTING TO PAPERLESS TICKETS" sections makes it clear that I must upgrade or suffer a diminished WDW experience. My choices are either to let several thousands of dollars of tickets that I've already purchased go to waste or agree to Disney's new terms.

Disney is not honoring the old "Terms and Conditions" that were in place when I purchased those tickets. As Disney is demonstrating with MM+, Disney will alter the "Terms and Conditions" whenever they feel like it. Disney does not intend MM+ to be optional. Go ahead and continue to defend it but please stop pretending that MM+ is optional.

Being coerced to “upgrade” tickets is not voluntary.

 

[MarkTwain]

It's going to take me a long time to get over the fact that Spirit finally has an avatar.

 

[flynnibus]

Disney is not honoring the old "Terms and Conditions" that were in place when I purchased those tickets. As Disney is demonstrating with MM+, Disney will alter the "Terms and Conditions" whenever they feel like it

Yup - you should call guest services and demand a refund.

Or.. you can wait until the product is rolled out.. find out the truth about your options.. and then call for your refund.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Yup - you should call guest services and demand a refund.

Or.. you can wait until the product is rolled out.. find out the truth about your options.. and then call for your refund.

Really, so you believe Disney will publish a list of all RFID reader locations along with the capabilities of each deployed piece of equipment so I'll know exactly when I am being tracked?

And, furthermore, you think Disney will amend its published "No Refund" policy to take into account those who might object to the new "Terms and Conditions"?

Of course, if Disney is willing to "bend the rules" for its "No Refund" policy, I wonder where else it might be willing to "bend the rules". Perhaps in areas that are not so favorable to its "guests"?

Maybe I'll simply purchase an anti-RFID wallet (wow, they make those exactly because people are worried about RFID technology), at least until Disney again amends its "Terms and Conditions" to make MagicBands mandatory. Oh wait, Disney never modifies its "Terms and Conditions".

 

[flynnibus]

Really, so you believe Disney will publish a list of all RFID reader locations along with the capabilities of each deployed piece of equipment so I'll know exactly when I am being tracked?

Why would they do that? You just said your threshold was to not be tracked at all. So why do you care where any readers would be (or would anyone) if your standard is 'no tracking'? Nevermind that's a standard that has been exceeded by the company for how long now.. but its a problem for you now.

And, furthermore, you think Disney will amend its published "No Refund" policy to take into account those who might object to the new "Terms and Conditions"?

I think Disney is undertaking a radical change - that it obviously knows is radical and may upset some people.

Maybe I'll simply purchase an anti-RFID wallet (wow, they make those exactly because people are worried about RFID technology), at least until Disney again amends its "Terms and Conditions" to make MagicBands mandatory. Oh wait, Disney never modifies its "Terms and Conditions".

The wallet won't stop the company from tracking you - just like they've been able to track your interactions with the old ticket media. But lets not let facts get in the way of the rant...

 

[ParentsOf4]

The wallet won't stop the company from tracking you - just like they've been able to track your interactions with the old ticket media. But lets not let facts get in the way of the rant...

You know perfectly well what I've written in the past about collecting transaction information:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/congress-questions-next-gen.858932/page-23#post-5299946

You know perfectly well because you attacked that post as well.

As I wrote here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ons-and-opinions.857322/page-222#post-5302557

My objection is to the RFID technology being used to track people, a concern expressed by many organizations in many countries. The millions of lobbying dollars pumped into D.C. by large corporations with a vested interest in the technology aside, the tracking of human beings is still a hotly debated topic.

I know the technology. RFID will allow Disney to track us.

All you've ever done on this topic is to attack anyone who questions it. Why do you keep defending it?

And please stop with the "let's wait and see" argument. It's getting very old.

Let's wait and see if Disney will allow attractions to deteriorate even more.

Let's wait and see if Disney will raise prices again.

Let's wait and see if Iger again dodges Rep. Markey's next set of questions.

Let's wait and see if Disney's $1.5B investment in this tracking technology pays off.

Let's wait and see.

 

[thehowiet]

The wallet won't stop the company from tracking you - just like they've been able to track your interactions with the old ticket media. But lets not let facts get in the way of the rant...

You're right, flynn, the wallet won't totally stop them from tracking you, but I'm guessing it will prevent the level of tracking Disney would prefer. When I'm in WDW it's straight up cash, homie. Translation: I do not use credit cards. Yes, right now they know when I enter a park and when I leave a park. Say I get two fastpasses, then they know where I am when I obtain those two fastpasses and where I should be if and when I actually use them. MyMouseArrest+ takes the tracking capabilities to a whole new level. I realize I am tracked now, but where does the level of tracking cross the line, if not from a legal standpoint, then ethically?

Just because they are able to track me to a certain degree now does not automatically imply that it is OK to take that to the next level and potentially know where I am and what I do at all times. To say that just because we know some information about you means that we can know everything about you is a little presumptuous. The question is, where is that line? Based on what we are seeing from TWDC I'm guessing that line is a small dot way off in the distance for them, regardless of how much information they have about all of us.

 

[flynnibus]

You know perfectly well what I've written in the past (among other posts):

repeating it doesn't make it any more legitimate or convincing. Sure, you think the company is 'stalking you' even tho it is doing what it's been doing for years - but now it concerns you because the token used to track you has changed. If Disney stopped using the RFID tag tomorrow - it wouldn't change the fact they've been able to collect much of the very same data about you and 'track' you or 'stalk you'.

All you've ever done on this topic is to attack anyone who questions it. Why do you keep defending it?

I'm not - I'm attacking the misinformation and logical fallacies people are spreading as a foundation for their belief.

And please stop with the "let's wait and see" argument. It's getting very old.

Why? Because you can't counter it. You're rather throw anything you can raise a fuss over into the mix rather than build a logical connecting story. Your whole fit goes down the tubes if Disney simply offers to not record transactions from your card if you elect that path. A choice not excluded by Disney at this point.

I get it - you don't like the program as you know it from Disney. But you don't know the full program. If it bothers you so much.. that you'll 'lose' stuff then $%#$ man up.. Call Disney and demand a refund. Or we can bellyache over what might happen day after day after day. If you bothers you that much.. put your damn money where your mouth is.

 

[flynnibus]

Just because they are able to track me to a certain degree now does not automatically imply that it is OK to take that to the next level and potentially know where I am and what I do at all times

Sure - but don't act like a martyr either when the story changes incrementally and demand the company can't follow you.. when as you acknowledge, they've been doing all along. Some people are acting like the world just got turned on its head...

It's fine to say 'I think adding this location info is going too far' - it's completely different to say 'no way am I gonna accept the company tracking me!'... the latter acting like it's some new extreme.. it's not. It's an incremental add that in the case of Disney... doesn't expose you any more than you were prior. Until someone can point out why my location data while in the park between transactions is something worth obscuring and protecting as something value to me... I say 'big deal'.

To say that just because we know some information about you means that we can know everything about you is a little presumptuous

Answer me what new personal info, or information you hold dear, is being exposed with the new system vs using the existing tickets and KTTW cards.

What here is worth making a stand over?

 

[thehowiet]

Sure - but don't act like a martyr either when the story changes incrementally and demand the company can't follow you.. when as you acknowledge, they've been doing all along. Some people are acting like the world just got turned on its head...

It's fine to say 'I think adding this location info is going too far' - it's completely different to say 'no way am I gonna accept the company tracking me!'... the latter acting like it's some new extreme.. it's not. It's an incremental add that in the case of Disney... doesn't expose you any more than you were prior. Until someone can point out why my location data while in the park between transactions is something worth obscuring and protecting as something value to me... I say 'big deal'.



Answer me what new personal info, or information you hold dear, is being exposed with the new system vs using the existing tickets and KTTW cards.

What here is worth making a stand over?

You yourself have said that we do not know enough about the system to come to certain conclusions or to make certain assumptions, so how can you then say that this is just an incremental change? Do you know everything they plan to track and collect and how they are going to use that information compared to what they collect and do with that information now? Your argument works both ways.

Again, when does a corporation cross that line of going too far with regard to tracking and collecting personal data?

 

[Bork Bork]

Trying to keep this semi-on-topic: When I was at WDW in January, the KTTW cards functioned to open my room door and pay for things. I was not part of the official MM+ testing. However, I noticed that it would not function, even in direct contact with RFID reader, when the card was in my plastic-lanyard-card holder-thingy. Does that mean the plastic sleeve blocks the signal? If so, I'll save my money on the fancy blocking wallet.

 

[ParentsOf4]

repeating it doesn't make it any more legitimate or convincing. Sure, you think the company is 'stalking you' even tho it is doing what it's been doing for years - but now it concerns you because the token used to track you has changed. If Disney stopped using the RFID tag tomorrow - it wouldn't change the fact they've been able to collect much of the very same data about you and 'track' you or 'stalk you'.

I'm not - I'm attacking the misinformation and logical fallacies people are spreading as a foundation for their belief.

Why? Because you can't counter it. You're rather throw anything you can raise a fuss over into the mix rather than build a logical connecting story. Your whole fit goes down the tubes if Disney simply offers to not record transactions from your card if you elect that path. A choice not excluded by Disney at this point.

I get it - you don't like the program as you know it from Disney. But you don't know the full program. If it bothers you so much.. that you'll 'lose' stuff then $%#$ man up.. Call Disney and demand a refund. Or we can bellyache over what might happen day after day after day. If you bothers you that much.. put your damn money where your mouth is.

Up to your MM+ modus operandi, aren't you? Attack the messenger. You still haven't put together a coherent defense of the use of RFID technology on humans. The best you can manage is the feeble "That's just the way it is."

Slavery was the law of the land for centuries so no need to question it.

Segregation was the law of the land for another 100 years so no need to question it.

Women's suffrage wasn't fully realized until 1920 so no need to question it.

Companies that are spending millions on lobbyists in Washington are allowed to use RFID devices so no need to question it.

Is that really the best you can do?

Nothing close to stare decisis has been determined when it comes to tracking technology but as long as large corporations and their executives are allowed to spend millions lobbying Washington to peddle their technology to make a few more bucks, the future looks dim.

The only one (besides Disney) spewing forth misinformation on RFID is you.

If you don't like what I write then simply use the Ignore button. In the meantime, as long as anyone tries to defend MM+'s invasion of our civil liberties, I'll question it.

My motives are based on my sense of freedom. I don't want my children living in a world where it's acceptable for them to be tracked.

What are your motives?