Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

[WDW1974]

The one and only way I could get behind FP+ is if it leads to SHORTER standby lines in 2014 than we had in 2012. I also have not seen Disney say out loud that lines will get longer. But if they do, what little "wait and see" attitude I had will evaporate.

Kevin, Disney will NEVER admit this will lead to longer lines. That's suicide for a $1.5 billion and counting boondoggle.

All they're going to say is how MAGICal this will make everyone's trip because they'll be able to plan things in advance and, theoretically do more with their time.

This is a trainwreck and it is happening in slow-mo for all to see. I wonder if Jim MacPhee will just retire or become a consultant when all is said and done.

 

[WDW1974]

I expect shorter lines in 2014 simply because they aren't opening any real attendance driving attractions. Possibly a small bump in traffic for the 7DMT, but I can't see a small scale family coaster being a real attendance driver.

It won't be and the folks across town are laughing their arses off at that notion ... well, that and the idea that New Fantasyland is going to drive traffic in a Cars Land/WWoHP way.

 

[M.rudolf]

It won't be and the folks across town are laughing their arses off at that notion ... well, that and the idea that New Fantasyland is going to drive traffic in a Cars Land/WWoHP way.

Drive traffic from what I've seen in the end it will add to congestion, think about it if lines are longer due to Fp+ this area will be a lot more congested trying to get here or anywhere around fantasyland will be a madhouse

 

[tahitifan]

If they could reverse this one thing at WDW....you would see a lot of happy guest. Lets face it, while on vacation food is a huge factor in some peoples experience. Especially the older guest. I think they could have scrapped the entire NG program and do this. IMO they would have as many satisfied guest. There will be some moaning from some guest who say they cant visit without it ( thats a whole different thread). But I think if they did this it would be a brilliant move. They already have conditioned most guest that they need the DDP to have a great WDW experience. Now you just will have to pay for it. No more freebie.

And they didnt have to invest 1.5 billion to do it. This is another way that Disney could have tweaked the system to "squeeze" more money out of the exsisting guest.

I wish i could like this twice.

 

[Kuhio]

That's why they are adding interactive elements to the queues...so that the poor folks stuck in them will have something to do to distract them from the fact they are waiting an hour for Pirates or Mansion.

The thought of spending an entire hour fondling fake funerary ornamentation makes me want to join the Ghost Host up in the rafters.

Ironically, the problem with the new interactive elements is precisely the fact that they come across more as "experiences" than as "queues." Although you might think this is a good thing -- what could be better than having more "experiences" in the parks? -- it's actually problematic because the experiences being offered are, by necessity, incredibly shallow and do not lend themselves well to repeated engagement.

Having elements of limited interactivity -- such as noisemakers and video screens -- might be OK in a queue for a ride that is ostensibly for younger children, like Pooh, but they are of considerably less efficacy in an attraction that is meant for a broader cross-section of guests. It might be cool to experience the HM's cemetery organ or the bubble-blowing mariner once or twice, but most older guests are not going to want to spend hours and hours touching an ersatz tomb while waiting to enter the mansion.

In many ways, having a well-themed -- but largely non-interactive -- queue that actually contributes to the attraction's narrative (e.g., Expedition Everest, Journey to the Center of the Earth, etc.) is more effective because it doesn't set up the expectation of a separate entertainment event aside from the attraction itself.

When an interactive experience fails to sustain interest for the artificially prolonged standby waits that FP+ will engender, it will seem more like a disappointment than would a well-themed, albeit non-interactive, queue that never provided the implicit promise of an additional entertainment event.

 

[ChrisFL]

Why? Because you're going to have more attractions with the service and more FP's being given out per day.
There are days at DLR where they shut FP off of 3-4 attractions because there is no need for it, but to create artificially long lines.

That is what will happen here. Let's say GMR or PoC are pretty much 10-minutes to walk-ons on a weekday in two weeks. One year from now, those attractions will likely have 20-40 minute waits because FP+ has been added.

It is not all that complicated. Get used to planning for everything months in advance or standing in ridiculous lines ... like the 30 minutes I waited recently for Mermaid at MK.

You can please some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time.

Disney wants to please some of the uber-planning, on-site $$$ guest all of the time it seems, leaving everyone else out.

What's ironic to me is they could have just as easily (and a LOT less expensively) set up a system like Universal has for their "Front of the line" access, but only make it for 3-4 hotels per park per day.

I could have my math wrong but theoretically I think it would work, and I do realize there's a lot of other things Disney is going to be doing with FP+, but purely from a guest happiness/value standpoint, it still doesn't impress me at all.

 

[Longhairbear]

I understand what you are suggesting but it does not make the rooms more valuable if onsite guests cannot get the "good" (as I like to call them) FP+.

People booking $400+/night rooms are going to want FP+ for Peter Pan. If Disney does not increase the supply of FP+ for onsite guests, they are going to have a lot of upset onsite guests who will decide that the price is not worth it. 10,000 Deluxe Resort onsite rooms means potentially 30,000 to 40,000 Deluxe Resort guests per day. Even if only one-in-four go to the MK, Deluxe Resort guests alone have the potential to use up the lion's share of Peter Pan's capacity.

Now add the 20,000 Moderate and Value resort rooms. Potential demand from onsite guests alone is tremendous.

P.S. The numbers are worse at the other three theme parks, where there are significantly fewer E ticket attractions.

May I throw a wrench into this discussion? I am assuming with all the data mining, Disney will also track whether or not one actually uses any given ADR, or FP+. Suppose a guest, or group decides not to use the ADR they had booked months ago. Suppose they don't use all of their allocated FP+, or any of them. In small amounts this probably wouldn't affect anything, but what if huge numbers of guests booked them, but never used them, and did something else? My take on this scenario is that nothing happens of interest in the guest experience, but what if numbers show the guest is ambivalent about the whole Next Gen thing? Just a thought.

 

[Bolna]

I think this will turn off both the first timers and the long-timers like myself. The only ones who will enjoy it are the OCD/TouringPlans/Never visited WDW before Y2K/have spread sheets to plan a trip group. ... And those people are not as plentiful as Disney believes.

I kind of belong to all these categories you mention above - and even I don't expect to enjoy it. The problem from the perspective as someone who likes to plan is that the more you can plan, the more difficult it becomes. Now I might have a general plan of which attraction I want to see and even in which order I want to see them. But having to set specific times for a number of attractions beforehand seems more of a planning nightmare than something I would enjoy. I can already imagine all these threads on discussion boards about "I can only get a FP+ for Peter Pan for 1:30pm, do you think I will make it in time to the 2:30pm lunch reservation at the Crystal Palace?".

 

[ParentsOf4]

May I throw a wrench into this discussion? I am assuming with all the data mining, Disney will also track whether or not one actually uses any given ADR, or FP+. Suppose a guest, or group decides not to use the ADR they had booked months ago. Suppose they don't use all of their allocated FP+, or any of them. In small amounts this probably wouldn't affect anything, but what if huge numbers of guests booked them, but never used them, and did something else? My take on this scenario is that nothing happens of interest in the guest experience, but what if numbers show the guest is ambivalent about the whole Next Gen thing? Just a thought.

With FP, WDW already deals with unused "experiences". (Gotta love Disney-speak.) Somebody shows up at 9:50 AM at Soarin' and gets a 7:50 PM FP. There's a decent chance they won't be around to use it. WDW also deals with a lot of people who don't know how to use FP and so don't try. Both scenarios result in crowd variances that WDW is trying to eliminate.

With FP+, if someone gets a 7:50 PM time for Soarin', they are more likely to be there. It's an appointment they scheduled months in advance. They go to DAK in the morning (maybe) and head over to Epcot for dinner. If someone doesn't understand FP+, they have had months to stare at the thing on their home computing devices, with WDW sending them email prompts that "it's time to book your FastPass Plus experiences". Even if they don't fully comprehend it, they are going to click buttons and make selections. People have been trained to do this. (I've started several polls only to have people effectively write, "I didn't understand the poll question but I made a selection anyway" or "I have no experience with the first 3 options but I've done the 4th option so I picked that one.") Once they make their selections, they've made an appointment and are more likely to keep it. FP+ should help WDW more accurately predict crowd levels which should help with efficiency if, as you allude, people don't end up confused by it. Despite WDW's best attempts, there still will be those stopping at MK Guest Services asking, "I've got a time for Expedition Everest. I can't find it on the park map. Where is it?"

From WDW's perspective, the more important aspect is that these FP+ appointments might keep guests onsite. Why head to Universal or SeaWorld when you have 4 FP+ burning a hole in your electronic pocket? Give guests 4 FP+ experiences for each day of their stay and they are going to be inclined to use them. It's a smart strategy to try since it essentially costs WDW nothing and could help stem the Universal/SeaWorld bleeding. If it doesn't work, reconfiguring NextGen to try a different strategy is changing lines of software. WDW will keep trying different strategies until it hits the winning combination. Because NextGen's core algorithms are software-based, it requires a few hours of an engineer's time to reconfigure the system to try different strategies. I fully expect FP+ to change quite a bit until WDW stumbles across the right combination of input parameters that result in maximum revenue.

 

[alphac2005]

Um ... you obviously haven't had a burger at the Electric Umbrella or a turkey sandwich as Cosmic Ray's of late.

Nothing beats slow as a turtle service at the Electric Umbrella and in an effort to save costs, packing you in like sardines downstairs because they don't want to pay for someone to upkeep the seating up the stairs...

 

[marni1971]

Nothing beats slow as a turtle service at the Electric Umbrella and in an effort to save costs, packing you in like sardines downstairs because they don't want to pay for someone to upkeep the seating up the stairs...

Radical idea.... What I'd there were an empty most-of-the-time facility nearby that could reopen with minimal work and handle the Umbrella crowds at peak times...

 

[marni1971]

I posted the following on another thread. I thought it prudent to repeat it here:



As a Brit, I can prebook 14 days with the Ultimate Hopper. All 4 parks, both water parks for £252

I can get a day at Discovery Cove, plus 13 days at Seaworld, Busch Gardens and Aquatica for £111

Or... 14 days of Seaworld, Busch, Universal, IOA, Aquatica and Wet n Wild for £218

Plus various other combinations. I know what looks better value.

Speaking from a UK tourist point of view, most of my friends and colleagues I know now book a combo pass that includes WDW, Universal, IOA, Seaworld, Aquatica and Busch for around £445 for 14 days. They see that as best value, enough to see everything, and that means they now only visit Disney parks for half or less of their total trip. Other parks are eating into what used to be Disney days. And of the dozens of families I know (very unscientific I know) who are going to WDW, maybe two would even consider staying on property.




That's going to be a lot (again, a tiny sample) of off site guests not having access to FP+. And they have no plans of moving onsite just for the "pleasure" of shorter lines as opposed to inflated lines. It's I-Drive/192 or a villa in Davenport for everyone I know. They won't or can't pay a premium for staying on site. They don't see why they should.

 

[Goofyernmost]

1.) Disney feels its guests are stupid rubes who need to be constantly stimulated and just being in the parks isn't enough

In spite of my adoration for you (cough) I'm afraid that you got that part, dare I say, wrong. It isn't what Disney thinks, it is what Disney see's. You are very fond of recalling the "good old days" so I'm sure that you remember the time before Fastpass. We all stood in the same line, spoke with our neighbors, and patiently waited while we amused ourselves with conversation either with our own families or those along side of us.

Then came the hand held toy generation. How many times have you seen the question..."What can we do to keep the kids amused and quiet while we wait in the queue?" It is a restless generation that has lost the ability to communicate non-electronically that created the desire for interactive queues, and that's not the "rubes" as you so nicely describe your fellow human beings, it is the educated, disposable income'd, non-rubes that are demanding it. It is those that have been multiple times that are no longer stimulated by the place as a whole and must be entertained constantly. Besides that, what the hell is wrong with the interactive stuff anyway, do you really want Disney to stagnate any more then they already have? It is, at least, an effort to stay current, it really isn't a negative. Are there things we would like to see changed more than that, probably, but interactive, in and of itself is not a bad thing.

 

[marni1971]

You are very fond of recalling the "good old days" so I'm sure that you remember the time before Fastpass. We all stood in the same line, spoke with our neighbors, and patiently waited while we amused ourselves with conversation either with our own families or those along side of us.

And unless it was a show or similar the line usually kept slowly shuffling forward.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

I probably should just not say anything since I am posting from my smart phone sitting under a flat screen in the Emerg-a-care waiting room.

 

[xdan0920]

Very stimulating conversation going on here...

FP+ is sounding more and more like an utter nightmare. The argument that FP+ will make lines longer doesn't even qualify as an argument. It seems to just be a fact. There is no other way for this to work out. @ParentsOf4 has done a great job breaking it down for us, and there does not seem to be any wiggle room. Standby lines will increase, you will ride less E-ticket level attractions, and you will have to plan for those rides months in advance. How is that considered a vacation?

I will be at WDW in April for a week. We have DVC and we are now sitting on 2 years worth of points, with another use year about to start, so we need to use some of these points up. I will, at maximum, spend 2 of those days at Disney Parks. I don't know what is happening down in that swamp, but I sure don't like it.

Speaking of my trip, is FP+ going to have any impact on my 1 or 2 days in the park? Should I be planning out when I want to ride the "NEW" Test Track now? or, Is FP+ not going to be an issue yet?

 

[Bolna]

And unless it was a show or similar the line usually kept slowly shuffling forward.

When I was at DLP in the summer everything had incredibly long lines. Out of desperation I chose to get into a 40 minutes line for Pirates - something I would not ever consider. But then even the Treehouse and the Labyrinth had 20 minutes lines and I had to at least something. I was so surprised how pleasant that wait was. Because the line kept moving all the time! Those 40 minutes seemed shorter than waiting 10 minutes or so for Soarin - even with a FP - standing in those empty hallways before you get into the theater. Atmosphere and MOVING instead of standing make a huge difference!!

 

[marni1971]

^indeed. And that's why Disney used to be the leader in incredibly themed lines and preshows. With enough to see and experience without causing bottlenecks by stopping to play (sic) a video game.

 

[Bolna]

It does have some flaws. Nothing is perfect, though. Not even me. ... I don't like the current set-up, though. What if I don't want Disney to know who I am dining with. Let's say I'm dining with a favorite fanboi, but I don't want another fanboi to be jealous and find out that I am 'sorta' involved with the first fanboi? I have to make sure they both can't see the ressie and that type of deceit is something beyond me (likely why I never was employed by TWDC!)

I don't have your fanboi problem, but I agree on the fact that I don't like those "social network" aspects they have introduced. I was really annoyed when I realized that I was forced to give names for everyone in my party for a dining reservation. I am now dining with Mr A and Ms B - I could see no sense in putting in real names, there is no reason why Disney has to know.

But you are making an assumption (I certainly understand why, though!) that my friend is a 'he' ... shockingly, I know, but this friend is definitely all woman. And I like her that way too! (just gotta pry the the fanbois off me)

Oops, sorry. I hope your friend does not read the boards and won't be offended that I took her to be a man!

I absolutely agree. And, honestly, most of the places I want to dine aren't a problem. That said, my favorite location -- the California Grill -- has become a 5:30 or 9:50 place even when booking far out and that has pretty much meant it has has gone from an every trip location to a 'I haven't been there in over three years' one.

Unfortunately I could not get a reservation for the California Grill even booking 6 months ahead this time for my upcoming trip - it's being refurbished. And I agree, this is the one signature restaurant that suffers the most due to the dining plan as people use it as an event dinner - just like a character meal.

 

[xdan0920]

Unfortunately I could not get a reservation for the California Grill even booking 6 months ahead this time for my upcoming trip - it's being refurbished. And I agree, this is the one signature restaurant that suffers the most due to the dining plan as people use it as an event dinner - just like a character meal.

Exactly. People who would NEVER eat at Cali Grill are eating there to "get their money's worth" on the DDP. It is happening all over property, and the resturant quality is suffering as a result.