Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

Kuhio

Well-Known Member
A number of interesting points being made on this thread about love for WDW and when it's appropriate, if ever, to take one's business elsewhere...

Genuine love for a product or a brand is much like love for another person: if you're deeply in love, there is very little that even your family and closest friends can say that will convince you that the object of your affection doesn't deserve the full measure of your ardor. You can't, after all, argue against an emotion with mere words.

By the same token, however, once you've lost that loving feeling (to borrow liberally from the Righteous Brothers), it can be incredibly difficult -- if not impossible -- to bring it back.

I'd had an abiding affection for WDW for decades. Six or seven years ago, I would have summarily dismissed any effort to convince me that WDW did not deserve the place of privilege that it had long occupied in my regard. But something changed over the last couple of years, and that change had nothing to do with anything that anyone said, on a message board or elsewhere.

Although I have tentative plans to visit Orlando again in the next year or two, it's likely I'll spend my time largely at SW and Universal, along with a couple of local side trips. A decade ago, the idea of being in central Florida and not setting foot in a Disney park would have been literally unthinkable.

I say this not to "complain" or because I want to convince anyone else that they should "boycott" WDW... I say this because, for me, WDWMagic has always been a community as much as it has been a news site. I share my feelings and opinions -- both positive and negative -- here because I know they will resonate with other community members for whom WDW has occupied an important place in their emotions and memories.

For a few people in the community, that loving feeling for WDW will never go away -- no matter how stale the parks become, or how little value they get for their money. But for many, that loving feeling has already dissipated, or is on the verge of doing so.

It's much easier to sustain a loving feeling that has been firmly entrenched for decades, than to resuscitate a feeling once it has slipped away. It would have been a relatively simple thing to maintain that abundant goodwill and affection with its core fanbase, but Disney has squandered numerous opportunities to do so in the last several years. TWDC now faces a critical juncture for WDW: should their much-vaunted NextGen/MyMagic+ initiative, coupled with a lack of any substantive additions to the parks, alienate a large portion of their most loyal fans, they could well lose several generations of longtime guests who may never again be brought back into the fold.
 

SirLink

Well-Known Member
So the fact DAK pulled more clicks than 'something' - that means it is universally loved and adored by the majority? Your logic is pathetic. By the same logic I could compare it to any park that pulled more and say 'see.. DAK DOES alienate'. That is absurd.

DAK vs DHS means nothing to the original statement.

So using your logic DHS/Epcot/Disneyland/USF/IOA/DCA/SW/LL alienates people because they don't have as many visitors as MK ... your original statement was absurd to begin with just saying ... :rolleyes:
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
It's much easier to sustain a loving feeling that has been firmly entrenched for decades, than to resuscitate a feeling once it has slipped away

Yup.. it requires establishing a 'new' love.. and that new one never overwrites the original.. it's just a new, separate one.. leaving the old to grow in nostalgia. Usually making the old typically 'immortal' and insurmountable - putting the 'new' at a disadvantage from the start.

For me, it was a long break in the mid-nineties for about 10 years that made me out grow Disney's veil of supremecy. I will say tho.. DCL is as close to the old Disney as I have seen. And why I signed up for another massive cruise after my first before I even left the ship.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
So using your logic DHS/Epcot/Disneyland/USF/IOA/DCA/SW/LL alienates people because they don't have as many visitors as MK ... your original statement was absurd to begin with just saying ... :rolleyes:

I never made any comparisons to attendance.

The fact remains - DAK alienates a lot of people. It's subject matter, it's focus, it's attraction roster, it's identity.. all contribute to many people not being interested in the place.
 

SirLink

Well-Known Member
I never made any comparisons to attendance.

The fact remains - DAK alienates a lot of people. It's subject matter, it's focus, it's attraction roster, it's identity.. all contribute to many people not being interested in the place.

What your talking about are subjective and can never be proved, therefore you have to look at visitor numbers - can you prove those statements to be true nope ... :)
 

COProgressFan

Well-Known Member
A number of interesting points being made on this thread about love for WDW and when it's appropriate, if ever, to take one's business elsewhere...

Genuine love for a product or a brand is much like love for another person: if you're deeply in love, there is very little that even your family and closest friends can say that will convince you that the object of your affection doesn't deserve the full measure of your ardor. You can't, after all, argue against an emotion with mere words.

By the same token, however, once you've lost that loving feeling (to borrow liberally from the Righteous Brothers), it can be incredibly difficult -- if not impossible -- to bring it back.

I'd had an abiding affection for WDW for decades. Six or seven years ago, I would have summarily dismissed any effort to convince me that WDW did not deserve the place of privilege that it had long occupied in my regard. But something changed over the last couple of years, and that change had nothing to do with anything that anyone said, on a message board or elsewhere.

Although I have tentative plans to visit Orlando again in the next year or two, it's likely I'll spend my time largely at SW and Universal, along with a couple of local side trips. A decade ago, the idea of being in central Florida and not setting foot in a Disney park would have been literally unthinkable.

I say this not to "complain" or because I want to convince anyone else that they should "boycott" WDW... I say this because, for me, WDWMagic has always been a community as much as it has been a news site. I share my feelings and opinions -- both positive and negative -- here because I know they will resonate with other community members for whom WDW has occupied an important place in their emotions and memories.

For a few people in the community, that loving feeling for WDW will never go away -- no matter how stale the parks become, or how little value they get for their money. But for many, that loving feeling has already dissipated, or is on the verge of doing so.

It's much easier to sustain a loving feeling that has been firmly entrenched for decades, than to resuscitate a feeling once it has slipped away. It would have been a relatively simple thing to maintain that abundant goodwill and affection with its core fanbase, but Disney has squandered numerous opportunities to do so in the last several years. TWDC now faces a critical juncture for WDW: should their much-vaunted NextGen/MyMagic+ initiative, coupled with a lack of any substantive additions to the parks, alienate a large portion of their most loyal fans, they could well lose several generations of longtime guests who may never again be brought back into the fold.

Well put, as usual. Your experiences match mine as well, especially the part I bolded. Something changed in recent years in terms of my feelings about WDW, and in the eyes of many others as well. I'm not just talking about folks like us on message boards, but the general non-fan park going public who sense that something is just "different" about WDW, and not in a good way....even if they can't quite put their finger on why.

I'm still holding out hope for a renaissance of quality at WDW, but it gets frustrating, to watch a place that we all know and love so much face a slow and painful deterioration into something else. I hope for new management and better days ahead, while also recognizing that it will never be "the good old days" again but at least be a place worthy of my time and money, and bring delight to myself and my family as it had done in the past.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
What your talking about are subjective and can never be proved, therefore you have to look at visitor numbers - can you prove those statements to be true nope ... :)

Of course it's subjective - it's people's personal take on a product. Is there some mathmatical formula you were expecting before people say 'Yes, I like this product'?

What proof? Simply go back and read the last 10+ years of people posting their own personal experiences with the park.

Which park polarizes people more than any other on property?
 

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
While BTMRR and Space Mountain are very popular attractions, I don't believe that if they were built today, they would see the kind of attendance bump that the modern theme park industry is shooting for.

That said, building a "big" land at the MK is not what that park needs. It already has a HUGE audience. And it has also recently received much needed TLC on Main Street and Adventureland. EPCOT also is pulling strong numbers, but a little TLC is in order similar to the freshening that the MK has recently received. Disney is desperately trying to spread the people around to the other parks. But the park that is suffering the most is DHS. It has a jumbled theme, lackluster attractions, and the strongest direct competition in the local market. They need something "big" to get the people coming to the MK to also go to DHS. And DAK is also in need of a major expansion, but I am not sure Avatar is what the doctor ordered. I don't believe that the "Disney Audience" relates or cares about the franchise at all. Trying to capture a new audience doesn't make sense when they already have 17 million coming to the resort. What they need to figure out is why do half of the people coming to WDW not go to DAK or DHS?
 

ParkMan73

Active Member
But the park that is suffering the most is DHS. It has a jumbled theme, lackluster attractions, and the strongest direct competition in the local market. They need something "big" to get the people coming to the MK to also go to DHS. And DAK is also in need of a major expansion, but I am not sure Avatar is what the doctor ordered. I don't believe that the "Disney Audience" relates or cares about the franchise at all. Trying to capture a new audience doesn't make sense when they already have 17 million coming to the resort. What they need to figure out is why do half of the people coming to WDW not go to DAK or DHS?

I suspect many visitors to WDW are like my family. I've got school aged kids (3 kids between 4 & 10). When we plan our visit, we anticipate being gone about a week. We figure a day or so per park (MK & Epcot get two, the others one).

DHS or DAK building a single "big" thing is a waste of resources. I won't extend my trip for a ride. What the parks need is many small things. When we last went to DHS, we almost skipped the new Toy Story ride - the lines were too long to justify us waiting for a single ride. That's my problem with some of the recent developments - let's spend hundreds of millions on dollars and get one or two new rides. To me, it's just a waste of their money.

You want me to spend more money at WDW, the way to do it is to add many small things to these smaller parks. Get me to spend three or four more hours a day riding a bunch of smaller things instead of 90 minutes in line for a couple of minutes on one big thing.
 

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
I suspect many visitors to WDW are like my family. I've got school aged kids (3 kids between 4 & 10). When we plan our visit, we anticipate being gone about a week. We figure a day or so per park (MK & Epcot get two, the others one).

DHS or DAK building a single "big" thing is a waste of resources. I won't extend my trip for a ride. What the parks need is many small things. When we last went to DHS, we almost skipped the new Toy Story ride - the lines were too long to justify us waiting for a single ride. That's my problem with some of the recent developments - let's spend hundreds of millions on dollars and get one or two new rides. To me, it's just a waste of their money.

You want me to spend more money at WDW, the way to do it is to add many small things to these smaller parks. Get me to spend three or four more hours a day riding a bunch of smaller things instead of 90 minutes in line for a couple of minutes on one big thing.
When I say "Big" I am not talking one big ride, but a new land similar to The Wizarding World of Harry Potter or Cars Land. That usually means a big E-Ticket and several smaller attractions. Along with theme specific dining and merchandise options. To be blunt, DHS has 5 rides, with only one of them catering specifically to the demographic that WDW has decided to court heavily (families with kids under 9).

DAK only has 6 rides. 3 of which the above described demographic can't ride. If they are going to aggressively go after that demographic they really need to expand those offerings in all their parks (except the Magic Kingdom).
 

Next Big Thing

Well-Known Member
The fact remains - DAK alienates a lot of people. It's subject matter, it's focus, it's attraction roster, it's identity.. all contribute to many people not being interested in the place.
Please explain to me how that is a fact. It may be your opinion, but DAK, while it could use a lot of help, is the park in WDW that is in the best shape right now. As far as theme, transitions, entertainment, and side attractions (Jungle Trek, Discovery Island trails, Pangani, and now the Wilderness Explores game soon etc). The only reason it may "alienate" people is because people are too ignorant too actually spend time seeing all the things the park has to offer besides the rides.
 

SirLink

Well-Known Member
While BTMRR and Space Mountain are very popular attractions, I don't believe that if they were built today, they would see the kind of attendance bump that the modern theme park industry is shooting for.

That said, building a "big" land at the MK is not what that park needs. It already has a HUGE audience. And it has also recently received much needed TLC on Main Street and Adventureland. EPCOT also is pulling strong numbers, but a little TLC is in order similar to the freshening that the MK has recently received. Disney is desperately trying to spread the people around to the other parks. But the park that is suffering the most is DHS. It has a jumbled theme, lackluster attractions, and the strongest direct competition in the local market. They need something "big" to get the people coming to the MK to also go to DHS. And DAK is also in need of a major expansion, but I am not sure Avatar is what the doctor ordered. I don't believe that the "Disney Audience" relates or cares about the franchise at all. Trying to capture a new audience doesn't make sense when they already have 17 million coming to the resort. What they need to figure out is why do half of the people coming to WDW not go to DAK or DHS?

But that could be explained how management views the parks as one entity, honestly if they were viewed as individual parks, instead of Epcot you go to dine, DHS you go for stage shows, etc. then we wouldn't be in the mess of 4 parks in Florida have less attractions than the total of the parks in Disneyland...a healthy resort would have average attendance of 12-15 million per park.

I could tell them why 3 parks aren't even touching 1 of their parks numbers ... something ... something three parks ... half day parks...
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Let's see, a holiday weekend is ending. And what's news in the Disney community?

Well, how about the DVC at FW being 'postponed indefinitely' ... my take on it was that's going to cost too much money to develop due to its amazing location (you know, one that Disney has actively let rot since 2001).

An EPCOT project appears to be inching forward shockingly.

Folks close to Shanghai DL are saying that their budget keeps heading in the wrong direction.

Heard the O-Town Disney parks were quite crowded over the weekend and hours were extended (not quite sure why as friends were at an empty DAK last night when the park stayed open until 8:30). I don't quite get why Disney would think that on the ONLY holiday weekend in January this year (due to NYE being on a Monday), they wouldn't get crowds. They really can't get their act together on basic ops issues whether it's closing EPCOT too early or allowing MK to be open ridiculously long (7 a.m. to 3 a.m.) last month on select days.

I am sure part of this had to do with the $119 three-day FL resident offer and the unseasonably warm weather 2013 has brought.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Funny thing is they could announce tomorrow and still not have anything till 2020

I don't see anything of substantial proportions opening before 2018 or 2019. This is Disney.

Oh, Transformers looks to be up and running at UNI in May. Just think about that.

Two different companies.

Two different ways of operating.

Take away the Pixie Dust addiction and arrested development syndrome and what really is the best way of operating a world class resort?
 

Darth Sidious

Authentically Disney Distinctly Chinese
What your talking about are subjective and can never be proved, therefore you have to look at visitor numbers - can you prove those statements to be true nope ... :)

Funny because that is the very problem TWDC is currently having. The mindset that everything must have empirical value or a formula. That is the line of thinking at the company/TDO that leads to a mess. (I'm not saying you think this as I know you were just playing devil's advocate but this is a problem there)

If Walt himself only looked for empirical data, we'd never have his theme parks. Sometimes there is just more to it and a person either has the trait to know or they don't. Unfortunately most people in positions of decision making do not.
 

SirLink

Well-Known Member
Is the Epcot project "Wow, cool, amazing" or is it "That is neat" or is it simply "Oh boy".

And talking of Shanghai how many spinners are they up to now? 3? 4? Oh also have they fixed that story telling problem in their Pirates with huge Keira Knightly face?
 

SirLink

Well-Known Member
Funny because that is the very problem TWDC is currently having. The mindset that everything must have empirical value or a formula. That is the line of thinking at the company/TDO that leads to a mess. (I'm not saying you think this as I know you were just playing devil's advocate but this is a problem there)

If Walt himself only looked for empirical data, we'd never have his theme parks. Sometimes there is just more to it and a person either has the trait to know or they don't. Fortunately most people in positions of decision making do not.

If TDO looked at data as seeing their resort grow at a scrap of 1% per year, less people buying merch, etc. compared to the competition something would of triggered by now...
 

John

Well-Known Member
Take away the Pixie Dust addiction and arrested development syndrome and what really is the best way of operating a world class resort?

If I had known there would be a test I would have studied. This is to easy.....a gimme.

How about provideing world class service. Thick themeing overlay. Highly attentive employees. Something as simple as cleanleness.For this we would pay. Look at DCL what is the difference in it and the parks. SERVICE. You can put your finger on it. DCL maybe one of the more exspensive cruise lines but for what you get its well worth it. Thats what the parks used to be.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
What Disney shows/movies interest you at the moment spirit? I'm interested in talking on a lighter subject for a few posts. Then we can go back to house arrest bands.

I don't want to tread too far off topic of current events because some folks can never get back on track and some people simply derailed years ago!:)

But ...

I'm not 74 but Nashville and the neighbors are amazing

Nashville is actually amazingly lensed and, despite not being a fan of country music at all, has become one of my 'must sees' ... the Neighbors isn't the total piece of crap most critics ripped it as being. But it is sorta the idiot stepbrother in a night of quality TV. I do laugh at it, but wonder how long it can last. The Middle is quite good (and I can not stand Patricia Heaton in general). Modern Family remains the best comedy on TV, as close to perfect as they come. And Suburgatory is really good.

I do greatly enjoy Once Upon a Time (the gay Lost as a friend calls it!) quite a bit. ... I also have slowly become a fan of Happy Endings despite it really just being a new version of Friends.

As to films, I am interested in EVERYTHING Disney has on its 2013 slate for various reasons. Considering how few films they release, that ain't hard.
 

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
I don't see anything of substantial proportions opening before 2018 or 2019. This is Disney.

Oh, Transformers looks to be up and running at UNI in May. Just think about that.

Two different companies.

Two different ways of operating.

Take away the Pixie Dust addiction and arrested development syndrome and what really is the best way of operating a world class resort?

re: Transformers. I have heard that they will start cycling ride vehicles through the system TOMORROW. And that the TM training schedule has been moved up by a month.

Just thought I would throw that out there.
 

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