Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

[Disneyhead'71]

So ParentsOf4, basically what you're saying is Disney has conceded the attraction wars and is simply trying to wring MORE money out of those that still attend their parks. Even though how many people are going to reconsider their vacation options when EMH go away after 12 years of offering it as a perk? How many folks are going to see 3-4 FP+s as the comparable equivalent? All the while the guys up the street are kickin' butt in the new attraction department. I keep hearing about this big DHS redo, but they still have yet to green light it.

I see this as a HUGE gamble. Maybe wouldn't have been such as big a gamble if they hadn't let the property languish in mediocrity for a decade, but folks are already walking. This probably is the worst time imaginable to be cutting things like EMH and Free Dining.

 

[ParentsOf4]

First off I do not EVER suggest building a 5th gate.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply you suggested building a 5th Gate. I was trying to use this as an example of what, in the past, Disney executives might have thought was necessary to create a "buzz" that significantly improved attendance.

With what's happened more recently at WWOHP and Carsland, I sometimes wonder if Iger still would have green lit NextGen if he thought WDW could have built something smaller than a 5th Gate and still been financially successful, like WWOHP or Carsland. If the Carsland success came before the NextGen decision, would there even be a NextGen? Might Iger instead have said "no" to NextGen and "yes" to a DCA-type redo at DHS.

 

[Darth Sidious]

So ParentsOf4, basically what you're saying is Disney has conceded the attraction wars and is simply trying to wring MORE money out of those that still attend their parks. Even though how many people are going to reconsider their vacation options when EMH go away after 12 years of offering it as a perk? How many folks are going to see 3-4 FP+s as the comparable equivalent? All the while the guys up the street are kickin' butt in the new attraction department. I keep hearing about this big DHS redo, but they still have yet to green light it.

I see this as a HUGE gamble. Maybe wouldn't have been such as big a gamble if they hadn't let the property languish in mediocrity for a decade, but folks are already walking. This probably is the worst time imaginable to be cutting things like EMH and Free Dining.

I think the point was in the eyes of an executive just building more attractions weren't enough of a financial gain. It would be if you weren't already near or at the top. If something was really bad off, then a new land would provide a significant bump. Thing is if Disney adds new attractions now, they view their level of inefficiency so high that they can't properly capitalize. They seem to believe they are near the mountain peak and subsequent expansions cost too much to realize the gain. With NextGen they view it as a tool to fix some of those cost problems. I think if they see some changes wig their financials (for the good) they will start to build again.

Again this is from the eyes and mindset of an executive. It isn't necessarily my opinion but I don't necessarily disagree with it either.

 

[tomman710]

Sorry, I did not mean to imply you suggested building a 5th Gate. I was trying to use this as an example of what, in the past, Disney executives might have thought was necessary to create a "buzz" that significantly improved attendance.

With what's happened more recently at WWOHP and Carsland, I sometimes wonder if Iger still would have green lit NextGen if he thought WDW could have built something smaller than a 5th Gate and still been financially successful, like WWOHP or Carsland. If the Carsland success came before the NextGen decision, would there even be a NextGen? Might Iger instead have said "no" to NextGen and "yes" to a DCA-type redo at DHS.

I think it's apparent they are kicking themselves over Potter but interesting point about Carsland ... however I think the current "thinking" would have still pushed NextGen forward because it jives with the rest of their "strategies" i.e. maximize profit centers at all costs, satisfaction be damned, repeat consumption be damned ... take all we can now and worry about tomorrow for the next group of executives.

 

[briandoc]

And that's why all of us (who also love WDW) pay higher prices for lower quality and fewer new attractions, because the executives running WDW know that the public will, by and large, accept lower standards and still love WDW. We all suffer because there are enough people who see the problems and still say, "yeah, but it's Walt Disney World and I love it anyway".

We get what we deserve.

Me, I've been taking most of my business elsewhere lately.

Kind of interesting that my post got boiled down to the fact that I and the other millions of Disney lovers are the downfall of WDW for not boycotting and taking our business elsewhere.

I guess there's a case for that. If I didn't think there was still a good return for all of the money we spent on tickets/merchandise/restaurants/lodging/fuel etc that we spend on these trips, we wouldn't return. Sure, I see a lot of things differently now that it's not my parent's dime. I see problems. And I have hope that it will get worked out so that I don't end up choosing another destination. But for now, apologizing for still loving the experience isn't in the cards.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

I think the point was in the eyes of an executive just building more attractions weren't enough of a financial gain. It would be if you weren't already near or at the top. If something was really bad off, then a new land would provide a significant bump. Thing is if Disney adds new attractions now, they view their level of inefficiency so high that they can't properly capitalize. They seem to believe they are near the mountain peak and subsequent expansions cost too much to realize the gain. With NextGen they view it as a tool to fix some of those cost problems. I think if they see some changes wig their financials (for the good) they will start to build again.

Again this is from the eyes and mindset of an executive. It isn't necessarily my opinion but I don't necessarily disagree with it either.

To put Disney's bloated creation process in perspective, The WWOHP cost $265 million. New Fantasyland cost $425 million.

 

[ParentsOf4]

So ParentsOf4, basically what you're saying is Disney has conceded the attraction wars and is simply trying to wring MORE money out of those that still attend their parks. Even though how many people are going to reconsider their vacation options when EMH go away after 12 years of offering it as a perk? How many folks are going to see 3-4 FP+s as the comparable equivalent? All the while the guys up the street are kickin' butt in the new attraction department. I keep hearing about this big DHS redo, but they still have yet to green light it.

I see this as a HUGE gamble. Maybe wouldn't have been such as big a gamble if they hadn't let the property languish in mediocrity for a decade, but folks are already walking. This probably is the worst time imaginable to be cutting things like EMH and Free Dining.

Please consider reading the following post:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ons-and-opinions.857322/page-121#post-5284336

To summarize, WDW will continue to build new attractions but only as needed to keep the NextGen business model successful. Taking into account what I believe to be WDW's target market, it makes more sense for WDW to add splashier "lands" infrequently (assuming most guest visit WDW only once every few years) than build attractions more frequently like Six Flags, which caters to a local crowd than visits every year.

As I have posted elsewhere, if you look at the math, you'll realize that most WDW guests get 0 or 1 FP per day. Overwhelmingly, FP are disproportionately distributed to those who are completely comfortable with the current FP system. Even 14 years after being introduced, most guests still don't use FP.

FP+ now can be sold to the majority of new or infrequent WDW guests as a new perk. As I've suggested elsewhere, most people on wdwmagic.com are experienced WDW visitors. Don't think like that when considering NextGen. Instead, think of it from the point of view of someone you know at home or at work who rarely visits WDW. To them, FP+ and NextGen are new perks.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

I do think that WDW has had a recent bad run with attraction creation and return on their investments. Everest didn't really catch on. Mission Space made too many people sick and got a bad reputation as a "killer". Star Tours 2.0 didn't really pack in the people because it was advertised poorly (intentionally I might add) and was just an upgrade to a 25 year old attraction. And New Fantasyland was not intended to be an attendance driver. It was specifically designed to take care of an existing capacity issue without compounding the problem. I believe that if they were to design it now, with their softening numbers, they would have reconsidered not including a big E.

As it stands now they don't have a big attendance driver under construction, their numbers are already softening, 3 of their parks are beyond stale, Potter has sucked up the merchandise money, Uni has a value resort coming and 3 HUGE E-Tickets under construction. And Disney is about to tweak the crap out of their loyal fan base by introducing "Micromanage or Die" park touring with reduced benefits at sky-rocketing prices.

I don't see this ending well.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Kind of interesting that my post got boiled down to the fact that I and the other millions of Disney lovers are the downfall of WDW for not boycotting and taking our business elsewhere.

I guess there's a case for that. If I didn't think there was still a good return for all of the money we spent on tickets/merchandise/restaurants/lodging/fuel etc that we spend on these trips, we wouldn't return. Sure, I see a lot of things differently now that it's not my parent's dime. I see problems. And I have hope that it will get worked out so that I don't end up choosing another destination. But for now, apologizing for still loving the experience isn't in the cards.

I didn't suggest you should stop going. I wrote:

So I continue to encourage others to acknowledge what's happening at WDW right now and, in whatever way they think most appropriate, to let Disney know they are unhappy with WDW's direction.

Since you acknowledge "I see problems", I suggest that you don't silently accept them. Do whatever you think is most appropriate. Some contact Guest Relations. Others enjoy Disney but either DLR or DCL where quality is still top-notch. This isn't a systemic issue at Disney but at WDW in particular. Wouldn't you like to try a vacation at DLR or on DCL? Try one of these and your eyes will really be opened to what's happening at WDW.

As long as enough people passively accept the state of WDW, WDW will not improve.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

Please consider reading the following post:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ons-and-opinions.857322/page-121#post-5284336

To summarize, WDW will continue to build new attractions but only as needed to keep the NextGen business model successful. Taking into account what I believe to be WDW's target market, it makes more sense for WDW to add splashier "lands" infrequently (assuming most guest visit WDW only once every few years) than build attractions more frequently like Six Flags, which caters to a local crowd than visits every year.

As I have posted elsewhere, if you look at the math, you'll realize that most WDW guests get 0 or 1 FP per day. Overwhelmingly, FP are disproportionately distributed to those who are completely comfortable with the current FP system. Even 14 years after being introduced, most guests still don't use FP.

FP+ now can be sold to the majority of new or infrequent WDW guests as a new perk. As I've suggested elsewhere, most people on wdwmagic.com are experienced WDW visitors. Don't think like that when considering NextGen. Instead, think of it from the point of view of someone you know at home or at work who rarely visits WDW. To them, FP+ and NextGen are new perks.

Oh, I see what you're saying and I agree that that is TWDC's thinking. I simply believe they are wrong. Very wrong. A lot of infrequent visitors, the ones who don't utilize FP now, will have no CLUE how to utilize this new system. Then when someone tries to explain it to them they will glaze over and decide maybe Myrtle Beach is a better, less stressful, and most certainly cheaper vacation destination.

And as far as WDW building stuff. I believe that by the time they actually get a big E open it will be too late to really help. No I don't think WDW is going to roll over and die. But I do see a really rough 6-8 years ahead of them.

 

[Darth Sidious]

I do think that WDW has had a recent bad run with attraction creation and return on their investments. Everest didn't really catch on. Mission Space made too many people sick and got a bad reputation as a "killer". Star Tours 2.0 didn't really pack in the people because it was advertised poorly (intentionally I might add) and was just an upgrade to a 25 year old attraction. And New Fantasyland was not intended to be an attendance driver. It was specifically designed to take care of an existing capacity issue without compounding the problem. I believe that if they were to design it now, with their softening numbers, they would have reconsidered not including a big E.

As it stands now they don't have a big attendance driver under construction, their numbers are already softening, 3 of their parks are beyond stale, Potter has sucked up the merchandise money, Uni has a value resort coming and 3 HUGE E-Tickets under construction. And Disney is about to tweak the crap out of their loyal fan base by introducing "Micromanage or Die" park touring with reduced benefits at sky-rocketing prices.

I don't see this ending well.

Those attractions were a tragedy. Mission Space, as cool as it is... will never be the draw it was intended to be. Even I went on and said yeah once is enough. I felt a tad disoriented and my girlfriend felt sick.

Everest is awesome but like you said it never caught on. ST2.0... I wish they went all new. I like the rework but a new ride is needed for the SW franchise next to ST... at the very least.

Also, good analysis on the FLE... I agree with the points you made there.

 

[flynnibus]

I don't think Everest is a bust - it's just that it's stuck in DAK and it alone can't keep people there all day.

If Everest was the same type of coaster in the MK or DHS.. I bet it wouldn't get that same kind of doubt.

Reality is.. DAK alienates a lot of people.

 

[tomman710]

I don't think Everest is a bust - it's just that it's stuck in DAK and it alone can't keep people there all day.

If Everest was the same type of coaster in the MK or DHS.. I bet it wouldn't get that same kind of doubt.

Reality is.. DAK alienates a lot of people.

I'd also submit (SADLY) that the world we live in reacts more to "name recognition" and while I'd love to see original attractions based on original creations the fact is the theme park environment is heavily trending towards creating attractions based off movies, television, video games ... basically things with tie-ins and instant brand awareness that they can market to a built in audience ... which sadly Everest doesn't have.

 

[disneyflush]

Kind of interesting that my post got boiled down to the fact that I and the other millions of Disney lovers are the downfall of WDW for not boycotting and taking our business elsewhere.

I guess there's a case for that. If I didn't think there was still a good return for all of the money we spent on tickets/merchandise/restaurants/lodging/fuel etc that we spend on these trips, we wouldn't return. Sure, I see a lot of things differently now that it's not my parent's dime. I see problems. And I have hope that it will get worked out so that I don't end up choosing another destination. But for now, apologizing for still loving the experience isn't in the cards.

Thank you for your input and opinion. It is fantastic you are able to not have the issues being discussed in this thread affect your vacation plans or enjoyment of WDW.

The people talking about the current state of WDW and how the experience can be improved are not the Disney firing squad I might add. No one is asking you to apologize because you love WDW and the experience.

Please keep posting your opinions and adding to the discussion, you are most welcome. I have yet to see anyone calling for a boycott of WDW though. Sometimes we feel the need to protect something we love when we feel it is being threatened but I assure you most everyone posting on here shares a great affinity for WDW. The most intense thread discussions on here are usually started by WDW1974 and they are healthy discussions with both sides represented.

 

[flynnibus]

I'd also submit (SADLY) that the world we live in reacts more to "name recognition" and while I'd love to see original attractions based on original creations the fact is the theme park environment is heavily trending towards creating attractions based off movies, television, video games ... basically things with tie-ins and instant brand awareness that they can market to a built in audience ... which sadly Everest doesn't have.

meh.. I don't think that is as big of a deal in attractions that are predominately physical experiences such as a roller coaster. New generations have not failed to fall in love with BTMRR or Space Mountain because they are not tied to a Pixar or Disney franchise or character group.

 

[RandomPrincess]

I don't think Everest is a bust - it's just that it's stuck in DAK and it alone can't keep people there all day.

If Everest was the same type of coaster in the MK or DHS.. I bet it wouldn't get that same kind of doubt.

Reality is.. DAK alienates a lot of people.

I agree I can't tell you how many people say "Isn't it just a zoo? We have a zoo that's free here!"

 

[tomman710]

meh.. I don't think that is as big of a deal in attractions that are predominately physical experiences such as a roller coaster. New generations have not failed to fall in love with BTMRR or Space Mountain because they are not tied to a Pixar or Disney franchise or character group.

I'd agree with that to an extent ... sure "classic" attractions resonate with new fans but do you really think Disney will build any attractions in the next 5-10 years that aren't tied to a franchise?

 

[flynnibus]

I'd agree with that to an extent ... sure "classic" attractions resonate with new fans but do you really think Disney will build any attractions in the next 5-10 years that aren't tied to a franchise?

Don't you see the conflict in your question? 'Classic' attractions have no inherent appeal to new audiences. They appeal to new audiences because they 'work' for that audience. That's the key to the point.. those attractions continue to attract NEW people independent of any legacy they have.

For building new attractions.. Disney just built two major attractions in HK w/o franchise attachments, the western coaster and the new Mystic Manner.

But we must remember the company is a integrated system.. a system looking to exploit the good in one segment to help it's other segments. The inclusion of franchises is less about 'going with a proven instead of an unknown...' and is more about leveraging its own properties for synergy purposes. Merchandise, etc.

In other areas... licensing is done to get that brand recognition and draw the customer in. Example: Coin-op, slot machines, etc. For Disney, it's not that they are worried people won't understand Everest and they should instead go with 'Goofy the Mountain climber' because Goofy is more recognizable.. but because of the merchandise and other tie ins the franchise direction provides.

So while I think you will see a lot more tie-ins as you say - I don't think it's for the same reasons you suggest.

 

[Cody5242]

I'm waiting for the next spirited thread so that this conversation can end

 

[SirLink]

I don't think Everest is a bust - it's just that it's stuck in DAK and it alone can't keep people there all day.

If Everest was the same type of coaster in the MK or DHS.. I bet it wouldn't get that same kind of doubt.

Reality is.. DAK alienates a lot of people.

What? If we go off the last TEA numbers published it had more people through the gates than the park which has a nighttime show, more traditional attractions:

DHS: 9,699,000
DAK: 9,783,000

Sure DAK alienates people ...

 

[flynnibus]

What? If we go off the last TEA numbers published it had more people through the gates than the park which has a nighttime show, more traditional attractions:

DHS: 9,699,000
DAK: 9,783,000

Sure DAK alienates people ...

So the fact DAK pulled more clicks than 'something' - that means it is universally loved and adored by the majority? Your logic is pathetic. By the same logic I could compare it to any park that pulled more and say 'see.. DAK DOES alienate'. That is absurd.

DAK vs DHS means nothing to the original statement.