Space Mt. and Juncle Cruise rehabs

[mickey04]

Wasn`t the theme of Adventureland destroyed when Aladdins Magic Carpets was installed?

To an extent, perhaps, though I think it could be argued that Adventureland is just a collection of themes and settings that recall Adventure. For example Tiki has a Polynesian theme, Pirates is Caribbean, while Jungle is more safari themed. However changing the preshow at Jungle is a direct contradiction to every other part of the attraction.

 

[wannab@dis]

Wasn`t the theme of Adventureland destroyed when Aladdins Magic Carpets was installed?

Not for my 2yo... she finds it a GREAT adventure to ride the carpets through Agrabah.

Maybe people need to lighten up a little with the theming gripes. Not everyone is *geeked* out as much as the people on these forums. Timon & Pumbaa will probably be fine in a preshow since they may work them into an old setting and tell goofy jokes and talk about the jungle. I know my little one would adore it and there are many others that would also.

 

[SirGoofy]

Man, this sounds great! I hope Space gets brand new tracks, sam layout, just a new track. ANd I really hope they keep the seating arangement. I think being by yourself adds a lot to the experience.

As for JC, I hope we get some of the advancements that DL's got, ie pihranas and the shooting gorillas. Maybe some other more realistic animals. I don't know how I feel about Timon and Pumba. I really like the old radio show, I find it to go along with the theming perfectly and it's really funny. I'm sure the would try hard to make T&P fit, but I don't know how well it would work.

 

[Space Mountain]

I guess I should shut up and be happy the figure isn't lower then...:lol:
Maybe they need all that money to add Stitch.

Now that WDI made a giant yeti, they can make a giant stitch that comes out and swipes his furry arms at you on SM!

 

[Shaman]

Now that WDI made a giant yeti, they can make a giant stitch that comes out and swipes his furry arms at you on SM!

Don't give them any ideas!!! They're watching us....

 

[Epcot82Guy]

Not for my 2yo... she finds it a GREAT adventure to ride the carpets through Agrabah.

Maybe people need to lighten up a little with the theming gripes. Not everyone is *geeked* out as much as the people on these forums. Timon & Pumbaa will probably be fine in a preshow since they may work them into an old setting and tell goofy jokes and talk about the jungle. I know my little one would adore it and there are many others that would also.

I think this may sum up the dichotomy here. When my family went to Disney for the first time, my sister was 2. She loved Dumbo. She loved Pirates. She loved IASW. Now, 19 years later, she still loves Pirates and IASW. Not so much for Dumbo. While I respect that your children may love it now, is this something they will grow up with? Is there more to it than the fact Aladdin is generally about adventure. If you look to the original Adventureland, you started out in a Caribbean area. That progressed into a more Polynesian area as you moved in, with a large island separating it. Then, on the other side, you walked down to a jungle covered river. Of course these themes didn't match, but they worked together with transitions. While there was a hodgepodge in a way, you never doubted which land you were in. The attractions, the architecture, the music all blended to create the feeling. Will the average 2 year old pick up on that? no. Will the average 12 year old? Maybe, but doubtful. Will the average 42 year old? maybe yes, maybe no. But, for those that do, it added a level of appreciate very few places have. And, a lot of adults, my parents included, didn't realize it until it was explained to them, but they absolutely had the feeling (even if only subconsciously) since they went the first time in '74.

I am not trying to downplay the enjoyment of your children. I think that is an ABSOLUTELY necessary element of the Disney experience. However, when you start to make the themeing more shallow, the focus solely on the characters which are kid-focused, you start to destroy the entire point of the Disney park experience. It was not meant as a place for kids. It was meant as a place for families to all ENJOY. Can you enjoy watching your kids have fun? of course. But, if you can create attractions that speak to and appeal to the larger audience; the base interests everyone shares growing up (whether you have already or are in the process of doing so), then you've got magic. It's not geeking out. The geeking out part is deciphering it and figuring out why it works. And, I would posit that that's what Imaginneering is all about and why those 9 old men were so successful. If that's geeking out, sign me up because they do a pretty darn good job at it.

 

[Slowjack]

Not for my 2yo... she finds it a GREAT adventure to ride the carpets through Agrabah.

Maybe people need to lighten up a little with the theming gripes. Not everyone is *geeked* out as much as the people on these forums. Timon & Pumbaa will probably be fine in a preshow since they may work them into an old setting and tell goofy jokes and talk about the jungle. I know my little one would adore it and there are many others that would also.

As an aside, I don't think WDW should be aimed at 2 year olds, since the point of Disney parks is for something awhole family can enjoy at once, and what a can enjoy is a lot different than what older kids and parents enjoy (though I wish it were not so--my little girl is only 4 months!).

I think you do a disservice to people to say they are "geeked out" because they don't want a flat-screen plasma with Timon cartoons dropped into the Jungle Cruise. Sure, many people will not be consciously aware of details like that. But that doesn't mean they won't notice them. One might argue that the main advantage of a Disney park versus a Six Flags, etc., is that the former spends so much time on details that few people conciously thinks about. How many people realize how much effort went into making the transition between Fantasyland and Liberty Square, for example? Very few, I guess, but it still has an effect on people whether they realize it or not. WDW was built upon the principle of immersive storytelling--remember the story of Walt seeing someone in the wrong costume for a land at Disneyland, and that's why there are utilidors under the MK? Theming is what makes WDW what it is--it's the difference between Big Thunder and a generic runaway mine train.

 

[wannab@dis]

I think this may sum up the dichotomy here. When my family went to Disney for the first time, my sister was 2. She loved Dumbo. She loved Pirates. She loved IASW. Now, 19 years later, she still loves Pirates and IASW. Not so much for Dumbo. While I respect that your children may love it now, is this something they will grow up with? Is there more to it than the fact Aladdin is generally about adventure. If you look to the original Adventureland, you started out in a Caribbean area. That progressed into a more Polynesian area as you moved in, with a large island separating it. Then, on the other side, you walked down to a jungle covered river. Of course these themes didn't match, but they worked together with transitions. While there was a hodgepodge in a way, you never doubted which land you were in. The attractions, the architecture, the music all blended to create the feeling. Will the average 2 year old pick up on that? no. Will the average 12 year old? Maybe, but doubtful. Will the average 42 year old? maybe yes, maybe no. But, for those that do, it added a level of appreciate very few places have. And, a lot of adults, my parents included, didn't realize it until it was explained to them, but they absolutely had the feeling (even if only subconsciously) since they went the first time in '74.

I am not trying to downplay the enjoyment of your children. I think that is an ABSOLUTELY necessary element of the Disney experience. However, when you start to make the themeing more shallow, the focus solely on the characters which are kid-focused, you start to destroy the entire point of the Disney park experience. It was not meant as a place for kids. It was meant as a place for families to all ENJOY. Can you enjoy watching your kids have fun? of course. But, if you can create attractions that speak to and appeal to the larger audience; the base interests everyone shares growing up (whether you have already or are in the process of doing so), then you've got magic. It's not geeking out. The geeking out part is deciphering it and figuring out why it works. And, I would posit that that's what Imaginneering is all about and why those 9 old men were so successful. If that's geeking out, sign me up because they do a pretty darn good job at it.

Again, you are making a distinction primarily because it was different from the "old way" and it includes some characters from a movie. So what? It's still adverturous to sail through the air on a magic carpet. Before anyone starts whining about "fantasy" you have to explain singing birds and tiki gods.

The theming works... maybe not for some purists who can't accept something new and different, but it works for the majority of the normal guests. :wave:

By the way... based on your post... does that mean that Dumbo doesn't work in Fantasyland? Just because your sister grew up and doesn't like it much now? If not, then that's a moot point.

 

[wannab@dis]

As an aside, I don't think WDW should be aimed at 2 year olds, since the point of Disney parks is for something awhole family can enjoy at once, and what a can enjoy is a lot different than what older kids and parents enjoy (though I wish it were not so--my little girl is only 4 months!).

I think you do a disservice to people to say they are "geeked out" because they don't want a flat-screen plasma with Timon cartoons dropped into the Jungle Cruise. Sure, many people will not be consciously aware of details like that. But that doesn't mean they won't notice them. One might argue that the main advantage of a Disney park versus a Six Flags, etc., is that the former spends so much time on details that few people conciously thinks about. How many people realize how much effort went into making the transition between Fantasyland and Liberty Square, for example? Very few, I guess, but it still has an effect on people whether they realize it or not. WDW was built upon the principle of immersive storytelling--remember the story of Walt seeing someone in the wrong costume for a land at Disneyland, and that's why there are utilidors under the MK? Theming is what makes WDW what it is--it's the difference between Big Thunder and a generic runaway mine train.

Theming IS a huge part of the experience and I haven't said otherwise. I've simply said that the addition of the video may enhance and plus an old attraction. Just because we don't know how it will work or how a few purists will react doesn't mean that it won't work for the majority of people walking through the gates.

Look at Pirates... people were whining and complaining about the addition of Depp. Now look... all positive reviews and people love the new additions. An old attraction has a new life. Look at the changes at The Land... people whined and complained for months about the change and it was a HUGE success.

 

[Epcot82Guy]

Again, you are misreading what I said. Dumbo was included originally. It fit. The animated characters were all, for the most part, contained in fantasyland. The issue is that they damaged the themeing of Adventureland to put in an attraction that appeals to a small group of people. If I remember correctly, you were among the people that agreed with removing AE. Because it was too scary. Because it appealed to too small a group of people. Why is it okay to target kids and not adults? I've ridden the carpets. There is nothing magical about it to an adult. I would argue there is nothing magical about it to a parent aside from the enjoyment of the child. However, I may be wrong about that. Regardless, it is about integration. I know many people that loved WDW because it did not force the Disney brand down your throat. I know a lot of people who have made recent trips without children who made the exact comment, "My God, it's like Mickey everywhere." I never felt that way when I went before. Mickey's were hidden, always a subtle reminder, but that is simply not true any more. The focus has strongly become on Disney instead of the creation of another World. If you want to call people geeks, purists, or whatever, feel free. But, if you have taken something that people have become so passionate about. Something that changed the lives of many in a generation in some way, you have to at least respect the fact that if you change the focus there will be a backlash. It is not about changes, improvements, etc. It is about changing the point and approach of a creation... of entertainment that is perhaps teetering on not entertaining a large group anymore.

 

[Epcot82Guy]

Theming IS a huge part of the experience and I haven't said otherwise. I've simply said that the addition of the video may enhance and plus an old attraction. Just because we don't know how it will work or how a few purists will react doesn't mean that it won't work for the majority of people walking through the gates.

Look at Pirates... people were whining and complaining about the addition of Depp. Now look... all positive reviews and people love the new additions. An old attraction has a new life. Look at the changes at The Land... people whined and complained for months about the change and it was a HUGE success.

Sorry for the double post, but have to point out a minor detail here. (a) the Pirates posts were not that involved. Most people said it sounded like it had great potential. They were worried about overkill and major changes to the attraction only, and once more details came out, the criticisms seemed to subside a lot. I thought it was well done. It changed the ride, but it was progress. It kept the original spirit and integrated the new ideas very well. I wish we had more space like DL's does, but there was nothing that could be done there.

As for The Land, the initial statements were that they were re-themeing the entire pavilion to a Travel Agency. The fact that that was not happening did not surface until the pavilion re-opened. Therefore, I don't think it's fair to cite that. Had that happened, I think many woul dhave been very disappointed. Again, it is entire gutting and changing of something that works well. Not simply updating. When you do that, you have a guaranteed loss for a hopeful gain. Until the details of what the gain will be, I don't think it's fair to jump on top of people for the hope that it will be something effective, especially when many changes recently have not been in the eyes of the fans (IMAG, SGE, etc.).

 

[Hakunamatata]

I have seen posted at least twice the reminder that MK was created for families. In my opinion, the magic carpets were a needed addition to Adventureland. Prior to them, there was nothing for younger members of the family to enjoy. JC is ok, but most of the humor is directed to an older audience, plus, it can be a bit much for the younger guest. PotC is definately intense for younger children. The Tiki room, although a light festive atmosphere can be over the top for young children with the volume, and the significant amount of visual stimulation. The magic carpets were needed to add a simple attraction for younger children. Given space limitations, and the fact that Aladin was not represented well in the parks, it makes sense and is a good addition in my estimation.

 

[wannab@dis]

Again, you are misreading what I said. Dumbo was included originally. It fit. The animated characters were all, for the most part, contained in fantasyland. The issue is that they damaged the themeing of Adventureland to put in an attraction that appeals to a small group of people. If I remember correctly, you were among the people that agreed with removing AE. Because it was too scary. Because it appealed to too small a group of people. Why is it okay to target kids and not adults? I've ridden the carpets. There is nothing magical about it to an adult. I would argue there is nothing magical about it to a parent aside from the enjoyment of the child. However, I may be wrong about that. Regardless, it is about integration. I know many people that loved WDW because it did not force the Disney brand down your throat. I know a lot of people who have made recent trips without children who made the exact comment, "My God, it's like Mickey everywhere." I never felt that way when I went before. Mickey's were hidden, always a subtle reminder, but that is simply not true any more. The focus has strongly become on Disney instead of the creation of another World. If you want to call people geeks, purists, or whatever, feel free. But, if you have taken something that people have become so passionate about. Something that changed the lives of many in a generation in some way, you have to at least respect the fact that if you change the focus there will be a backlash. It is not about changes, improvements, etc. It is about changing the point and approach of a creation... of entertainment that is perhaps teetering on not entertaining a large group anymore.

I honestly don't think that they "damaged" the theme in Adventureland. The only time I hear that is from a few here at the forums. Not actually in MK walking by the attraction. What you hear there is kids asking to ride something that was made for them. Many get scared at Tiki. They get scared on Pirates and can't ride it. They get scared on HM and can't ride it. You're hypothesis about segregating the guests is actually right on target, but the problem is that many of the attractions are not geared to the toddler set... just a few.

My 2yo enjoyed JC, but was not that intrigued by PotC or HM. She likes Tiki somewhat, but was ready to leave after some of the darker moments and never asked to go again. She begged to ride Aladdin over and over. It sounds to me like you want the attractions to fit YOU and not worry about the little ones and try to use your view of the theming as an excuse when in essance you just want something else for you. I think there's room for attractions for all groups. I honestly could care less for Dumbo since it's so slow loading and the lines are long. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have its fans. I'm just not one of them.

I enjoyed AE and thought it was a shame that the warnings were not heeded by some parents. My only support of the change was based on the fact that it wasn't pulling the crowds, didn't generate merchandising sales and it was time for a change. I've seen reports from CMs that said AE had MANY more complaints than SGE and that's the only thing that I agreed was probably accurate. The overall census shows that SGE receives less complaints... not that it helps the attraction. It's still not one that I care for.

 

[marni1971]

Once and for all.. we for the most part are not `normal` guests. We are the people who take pride, an interest, a passion, in every single aspect of the parks. Wannab, if you or your two year old don`t, fine. Just don`t diss us as incorrect for our beliefs. We (as in the `geek` catorgary you mentioned) can both be right. Try to accept others may have valid, even correct views too. Even if you don`t get it. Just becaue you don`t (or don`t understand, as you have recently put several times) dosn`t mean the other person is wrong. You may not mean to convey yourself like this, but this is how your posts read.

Now, onto better things. Anyone read the recent MiceAge article regarding the OP? http://www.miceage.com/allutz/al091206a.htm

 

[wannab@dis]

Until the details of what the gain will be, I don't think it's fair to jump on top of people for the hope that it will be something effective, especially when many changes recently have not been in the eyes of the fans (IMAG, SGE, etc.).

Here we go again with the "many things lately have not been good" stuff. I don't see that and would challenge you to name more than a couple. It appears that the complaints about recent changes come down to one attraction... SGE.

In recent times... last few years... the majority of changes have been positive and have helped create better parks.

Also.. instead of complaining and worrying prior to the details being released... just have a positive outlook that it may actually be a good change.

 

[dxwwf3]

Also.. instead of complaining and worrying prior to the details being released... just have a positive outlook that it may actually be a good change.

What about your complaints about the possibility of the Dreamfinder being brought back to JII?

 

[dxwwf3]

Look at Pirates... people were whining and complaining about the addition of Depp. Now look... all positive reviews and people love the new additions. An old attraction has a new life. Look at the changes at The Land... people whined and complained for months about the change and it was a HUGE success.

To be honest, I don't think many people AT ALL complained about the addition of Depp to POTC. I don't really know where you saw all of these complaints. Most people on here were in favor of the changes and they seem to be happy with what was done.

The Land is a different story. I complained about the changes (I wasn't furious or completely against the changes, but I wasn't completely sold on them to begin with) and I was wrong. And most of us were the first to say we were wrong as well.

 

[wannab@dis]

Once and for all.. we for the most part are not `normal` guests. We are the people who take pride, an interest, a passion, in every single aspect of the parks. Wannab, if you or your two year old don`t, fine. Just don`t diss us as incorrect for our beliefs. We (as in the `geek` catorgary you mentioned) can both be right. Try to accept others may have valid, even correct views too. Even if you don`t get it. Just becaue you don`t (or don`t understand, as you have recently put several times) dosn`t mean the other person is wrong. You may not mean to convey yourself like this, but this is how your posts read.

Now, onto better things. Anyone read the recent MiceAge article regarding the OP? http://www.miceage.com/allutz/al091206a.htm

I *get* the theming and the details, but I don't see that being lost.

If you read some of the posts... everything done recently is a failure. Maybe they're right... or maybe the optimistic view is more accurate. Apparently it's working since the number of guests are rising and the parks are doing very well right now. The facts of the numbers don't point to a lot of people being upset about changes... otherwise the parks would be in trouble.

I think a lot of purists fail to see the business aspect and just want the parks to be more of what THEY want and not what will help to continue to build on the success they are currently seeing.

 

[wannab@dis]

What about your complaints about the possibility of the Dreamfinder being brought back to JII?

If they added DF back... I wouldn't really care. I'm not a fan, but my premise has been simple. They have already made numerous changes to the attraction without a real success story. DF wasn't brought back for a reason. Whether the fans like it or not, it was a conscious decision to keep him out of both versions. Figment coming back still hasn't helped build a successful attraction so I personally feel it's time for a whole new direction.

It's interesting that fans want some characters in some attractions but not in others... Personally, I didn't care for DF, but if the majority did, then so be it. I just don't think the majority actually cared that much for him.

Again, my posts are about the overall success and the majority of guests and not my personal viewpoint.

To be honest, I don't think many people AT ALL complained about the addition of Depp to POTC. I don't really know where you saw all of these complaints. Most people on here were in favor of the changes and they seem to be happy with what was done.

You must have missed some of the threads, because there was major complaining about the changes... it was even highlighted in major media news stories that fans were upset about the addition.

 

[dxwwf3]

You must have missed some of the threads, because there was major complaining about the changes... it was even highlighted in major media news stories that fans were upset about the addition.

I guess I did. Everything I saw was usually positive about the upcoming changes and when they were carried out, I saw the same thing.