Space Mountain trains cycling today (Sat 26 Sep) - photo

[Jasonflz]

what a shame.. I was going to write out a response to this, but i'll just quote Lee instead

Sorry but I don't want "Nascar Mountain" over ours. We have great atmospheric theming that doesn't need music to enhance it. Sure, it does need some upgrading to lose that 70's feel that is lingering around but other-wise, we're fine. I guess it's opinion.

 

[SirGoofy]

We have great atmospheric theming that doesn't need music to enhance it.

Have we been going into the same Space Mountain?:lookaroun

Or do you know of a secret wormhole that transports you to one of the others?:lol:

 

[Jasonflz]

Have we been going into the same Space Mountain?:lookaroun

Or do you know of a secret wormhole that transports you to one of the others?:lol:

:lol: It's just a feeling I get on it. I truly feel like I am in space.



(maybe too much Pixie Dust?):lookaroun

 

[WDWFigment]

That is EXACTLY what you need to do to actually know anything about the subject. Just repeating stuff you've read online doesnt mean a thing. A lot of people who like to blab on the internet also have grudges against people. They also feed their ego by spreading info that is controversial and makes them seem like an insider. Phil Holmes might be great, might not be great - I don't know - never met him, never worked for him. Some of you could do well to take a similar approach instead of taking the internet lynch mob mentality - it gets old to read.

This is an entirely accurate statement, and most here just parrot what they hear from the few prominent posters regarding these individuals. No one who is not directly working with the decision-makers know to whom blame can be attributed.

However, your argument has morphed a bit in this thread. You initially discuss real world feasibility, and how we don't really know if things are feasible, just because WDI discusses them. Well, to that point, The Condundrum actually makes a valid point eek. We have the past and other worldwide parks. While neither of these are direct analogs, they certainly are close. Certainly, there are financial expectations placed upon WDW Parks and Resorts, and everything that is accomplished must be done with that constraint. The thing is, we can gauge whether those constraints are reasonable based on the past and upon the expenditures at other worldwide parks, among other things.

In sum, it's unreasonable for an unconnected fan to place blame on specific individuals. It's not unreasonable to find fault in operations, generally and offer constructive criticism. To argue that we cannot draw reasonable inferences based upon the past and present is, in my opinion, an untenable position. If that were the case, we would be precluded from having opinions about 99% of life. Forget discussing politics, religion, any business, social rights, or really, anything beyond your own person.

 

[_Scar]

We don't even necesarily need Mission 2... just something different. Maybe destroy the 2 tracks and make 1 big track. It'd have less capacity, but that could be fixed with double seating. It's not like that could make it any worse *ducks*

 

[TP2000]

I fully agree. I haven't experienced DL's SM in person but I still wouldn't take it over ours.

(especially the queue)

Let me get this straight.... You've never seen or experienced Disneyland's circa 2005 Space Mountain, and yet you are confident it's a lesser experience than the circa 1975 one at WDW? Even so much as to say the queue is not as good at Disneyland?

I'm seemingly constantly preaching for people not to judge life via a grainy, amateur YouTube video. But I just have to ask, are there even YouTube videos of the queue of Disneyland's Space Mountain?

How does one judge a queue (of all things) if you've never walked through it?

 

[Philo]

The queue at DL's SM is a mixed bag for me. Once your inside it's great but whilst your standing outside it's just terrible.

I personally like the fact that out of the three different Disney Resorts I've been to, each one has a different SM. The coaster lover in me like DLP's but my Disney side really enjoys both the MK and DL versions but in slightly different ways. I couldn't say which one I prefer.

 

[hokielutz]

I get what you are saying with jumping into the lynch mob mentality. But when people are passionate about such a place or a part of their life and you know the quality is often lacking and then you find out the names of those higher up who could make changes...it is easy to do so. I do agree though. Some are just jumping at names.

At the same time it also gets old to read stories of the parks in bad shape (especially MK) and hearing badly run operations and then having some people defend it saying things as insane as the clicking animatronics sound add to the classic Disney charm... :dazzle:

Well at least the Brer Rabbit was back to hopping and fully animated on Splash two weeks ago. When is the last time you've read that?

 

[hokielutz]

However, your argument has morphed a bit in this thread. You initially discuss real world feasibility, and how we don't really know if things are feasible, just because WDI discusses them. Well, to that point, The Condundrum actually makes a valid point eek. We have the past and other worldwide parks. While neither of these are direct analogs, they certainly are close. Certainly, there are financial expectations placed upon WDW Parks and Resorts, and everything that is accomplished must be done with that constraint. The thing is, we can gauge whether those constraints are reasonable based on the past and upon the expenditures at other worldwide parks, among other things.

One of the things you have to take into account is what is the up side for doing major work or addition to the MK, as opposed to upkeep and maintenance? Other world parks are tapping into new or additional revenue streams that will be a plus to Disney's ROI & ROIC. Since the MK is close to a mature park, completely gutting and redoing the SM ride is not going to net the park or WDW a positive ROI. (I know this has been discussed in a prior thread) Yes it is a financial consideration, and lends credence to the TDO argument of focusing on financials, but you can bet that the top brass at Anaheim would require a business case for a large redo of WDW SM, as opposed to what we appear to be getting in this actual refurb.

So to Steve's point... unless you are the fly on the wall of the executive meetings and lines of communication, you cannot pass judgement on who proposed what, why this and not that, what was cut and why, etc. That kind of information we won't be privy to and may never fully discover.

 

[WDWFigment]

One of the things you have to take into account is what is the up side for doing major work or addition to the MK, as opposed to upkeep and maintenance? Other world parks are tapping into new or additional revenue streams that will be a plus to Disney's ROI & ROIC. Since the MK is close to a mature park, completely gutting and redoing the SM ride is not going to net the park or WDW a positive ROI. (I know this has been discussed in a prior thread) Yes it is a financial consideration, and lends credence to the TDO argument of focusing on financials, but you can bet that the top brass at Anaheim would require a business case for a large redo of WDW SM, as opposed to what we appear to be getting in this actual refurb.

So to Steve's point... unless you are the fly on the wall of the executive meetings and lines of communication, you cannot pass judgement on who proposed what, why this and not that, what was cut and why, etc. That kind of information we won't be privy to and may never fully discover.

Accepting this conclusion requires accepting an important premise: The Walt Disney Company is infallible.

I don't accept that premise. I realize any argument here is made with imperfect information and thus no conclusion can ever be irrefutable or fully conclusive, but to say that we can't pass judgment is a bit much.

I will preface my points with this: I strongly believe in capitalism. I love it. That stated, one of the greatest market failures of our system is that the best interests of management often do not align with the best interests of shareholders (let's forget customers for a minute as surely not everyone will agree that a company should focus on the best interests of the customers. I don't even think that. I think the company should focus on its best interests, which often coincides with the customers' best interests).

Three of these interests that are not in the best interests of the company but are in the best interests of management are: expansion (only relevant if diseconomies of scale are implicated), corporate structuring that assists management entrenchment, and cost-savings. Of interest to this discussion is cost-savings. In a typical corporation, management is rewarded when it saves money or trims fat. This is essential to the system, but it has an unintended negative consequence: management saves money to impact its pay to the point that it results in long term harm to the corporation.

I think recent corporate history in America bears out the truth of my assertions. I don't think anyone can honestly say that 100% of the individuals working within management at the TWDC place the best interests of the company over their own best interests (I am not contending the opposite, just that we can't affirmatively assert that 100% DO). Lasseter and Iger can't do it all--they rely on the work of others. If others tailor 'studies and research' to what fits their personal interests, and other executives rely on these conclusions, the harm is done.

Maybe the return on investment isn't great enough to justify a complete makeover, DLR-style. However, maybe the folks conducting the research knew what conclusions would benefit their own interests when conducting said research, and made sure that research reached conclusions that suited their own interests. Maybe it's not even that complicated--maybe conclusive research of the long term ROI of a fully overhauled Space Mountain simply isn't possible. There are too many variables for which TWDC cannot account or are external to the company.

This is not some elaborate conspiracy theory. I'm not suggesting management at TWDC, specifically is out to get us or anyone. Most people are good people; however, many in the corporate world are short-sited and look to their own immediate future.

 

[Jasonflz]

Let me get this straight.... You've never seen or experienced Disneyland's circa 2005 Space Mountain, and yet you are confident it's a lesser experience than the circa 1975 one at WDW? Even so much as to say the queue is not as good at Disneyland?

I'm seemingly constantly preaching for people not to judge life via a grainy, amateur YouTube video. But I just have to ask, are there even YouTube videos of the queue of Disneyland's Space Mountain?

How does one judge a queue (of all things) if you've never walked through it?

True but I know many people complain about the ride itself. They describe it as a bunch of right turns at fast speeds.

Also, video of the queue make it look uninteresting. Ours has true ambiance.

 

[bobtabin]

In was there and it was quiet

Interesting. I was there too on Saturday and road the People Mover twice in a row before Noon and the mountain was eerily quiet. There was no movement or sounds inside the mountain when I went through. It was kinda neat.

 

[The Conundrum]

quote:
Originally posted by lee
true. The said part in this case is that it was entirely possible to do something nice. Feasible didn't enter into it, as i never heard of a non-feasible concept for sm that made it past blue-sky. Every concept, even the more ambitious ones that almost made the cut, were all feasible. They just required more money and downtime.



unfortunately, money/time/perceived need have all been allowed to take precedence over show quality/freshness/cutting edge.

that may make the nostalgia lovers happy, but living in the past didn't get disney to the top of the themed entertainment business.

what it did do was allow the mk to fade ... And fade badly.

And while the f-land project is great (any influx of capital in the hundreds of millions as well as demolishing tentland can be nothing else) it still leaves issues in many areas of the park.

It is amazing that the same company that created dl and dlp's f-lands is also responsible for the mks.

qft

 

[TP2000]

True but I know many people complain about the ride itself. They describe it as a bunch of right turns at fast speeds.

Also, video of the queue make it look uninteresting. Ours has true ambiance.

I never got that "right turn thing" while riding Space Mountain at Disneyland. I never bothered to think about which direction the rocket was turning.

So I found a Youtube video of it with the lights on, and there are more right hand turns than left ones; 12 right turns and 5 left turns. Here's the video, it's fun to watch, and appears to be a Cast Member party where they ran the ride with the lights on for them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXPFgtfW_yM

I've been through both Space Mountain queues, actually in real life instead of via YouTube, and both have similar spacey "ambiance", although Disneyland's looks and feels far more 21st century modern instead of Gerald Ford disco modern like WDW's still does.

Out of curiosity, if they replace the lighting in the WDW queue to the LED's and hi-def projection screens that Disneyland has, will you be sad that WDW's Space lost its 1975 "ambiance"? If they brought the digital projection exterior dome shows from Disneyland to WDW's Space Mountain, will that ruin the night-time look of the dome for you?

What if WDW's Space Mountain dome looked and sounded like this at night and you could see it from throughout Tomorrowland?... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COTUDNB7sWU

Is that good technology and a plus of the show, or bad technology that never should have replaced the white flourescent lights from the 1970's?

 

[SirGoofy]

The new "official" Disney Parks blog has an article about Ghost Galaxy at Disneyland full of comments begging Disney to bring it here.

 

[TP2000]

The new "official" Disney Parks blog has an article about Ghost Galaxy at Disneyland full of comments begging Disney to bring it here.

While it's possible, it wouldn't be the same without the on-board audio ability of the Disneyland rockets.

You would also need to upgrade and update WDW's Space Mountain special effects infrastructure out of the Gerald Ford era to pull it off. I've learned in this thread that a surprising number of people are happy with the 1975 look and feel of WDW's Space Mountain though, and don't care about technical upgrades that could allow them to do a Ghost Galaxy at WDW. The people posting on the Disney Parks blog apparently don't recognize that WDW's Space Mountain is just fine the way it is.

 

[SirGoofy]

While it's possible, it wouldn't be the same without the on-board audio ability of the Disneyland rockets.

You would also need to upgrade and update WDW's Space Mountain special effects infrastructure out of the Gerald Ford era to pull it off. I've learned in this thread that a surprising number of people are happy with the 1975 look and feel of WDW's Space Mountain though, and don't care about technical upgrades that could allow them to do a Ghost Galaxy at WDW. The people posting on the Disney Parks blog apparently don't recognize that Space Mountain is just fine the way it is.

Oh I know. That post was just to illustrate the mistakes of this refurb.

I can't believe those people on the Disney Parks blog! Don't they know a coaster with out of date effects is much better than a fully updated one?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

^:lol::lookaroun

I'd like to be able to have experienced it. Never made it there before Mission 2. That said, the ride/show experience totally blow the other versions away. The roughness factor is what bothers me, although I did discover that riding upfront or even close makes for a much better ride and a lower chance of a brain bleed.



Everyone has an opinion. I'd much prefer any of the other ride versions to WDW's. Anaheim and HK are smooth and have nice effects (better in HKDL) and Paris, while rough, is just an incredible experience (and that's well-knowing that they did indeed dumb it down from the original).

Why would you say that? Loss of the amazing score?

:lol: It's just a feeling I get on it. I truly feel like I am in space.



(maybe too much Pixie Dust?):lookaroun

I do too. Honestly.

I just feel like it's 1974 Space. Not 2009. Could you imagine 2009 Space overlaid on the original? :shrug:

The new "official" Disney Parks blog has an article about Ghost Galaxy at Disneyland full of comments begging Disney to bring it here.

Hope they listen.

 

[Lee]

The new "official" Disney Parks blog has an article about Ghost Galaxy at Disneyland full of comments begging Disney to bring it here.

I dropped in a quick comment.
Much restraint was used in order to keep from bashing the refurb.:lol:

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

how hard do you have to pedal to get the train up the lift hill, and do you need to wear a helmet and lycra?