So ... news and rumors?

CBOMB

Active Member
Whatever purists think of it, Nemo totally turned around the Seas pavilion and made it into a pavilion that people WANT to go into. You cant say that before. The years before Nemo were desperate for Seas attendance. They totally turned it around. You sometimes have to remember that these attractions need to appeal to the masses, not a small group of us that debate what does and doesnt belong in Epcot.
I completely agree. They rejuvenated a pavilion that had become old, and stagnate. It certainly seems to appeal to both young, and old. While I do think they could have done a much better job of the jellyfish, and maintainence of the ride is lacking, I still think it was a welcome addition. No matter what was done there will always be folks here to find fault with it. Nemo does exactly what it was intended to do. That is appeal to the masses in Epcot.
 

CBOMB

Active Member
I've been trying for a couple years to put together a web of sources that can provide constant, accurate information like Lutz gets but at WDW. If I could get it together I would have a blog going in seconds.
Sadly, my sources are sporadic and much more reluctant than Al's to spill real dirt.
Still looking, though....any volunteers out there?;)
Are you sure you want to expose yourself to the criticism, and hatred that folks like Jim Hill, and Al Lutz have to endure. They can't write an article without people bashing them to pieces. How many times have you seen when someone quotes Jim Hill the typical response of "He never gets anything right" or "You have to take anything he saids with a grain of salt" is usually within the first few responses. I honestly don't know how those guys can constantly take it, when all they are doing is printing information that is given to them from inside sources. Some times those sources are wrong or plans get changed or cancelled. Still they have to put up with the very personal attacks when they are only trying to give folks a peak on the inside. I'm sure your blog would be very entertaining Lee, and I hope you do start one. I just don't know if you really want to be put through the ringer trying to inform people what's going on at WDW. Anyway Good-Luck in getting it together.
 

Lee

Adventurer
Are you sure you want to expose yourself to the criticism, and hatred that folks like Jim Hill, and Al Lutz have to endure.
I'm not scared.:lookaroun

Seriously, the key is to find a good middle ground.
Al takes heat because he isn't afraid to shine light into the dark corners.
Jim catches it because he often writes about Blue Sky stuff that never gets out of Glendale. Accurate, but obscure. That causes readers to wrongly jump to "That never happened!" conclusions.

I'd shoot for a little of both, I think. Honest, but not mean spirited. True, but not so obscure that readers are inclined to not believe it.

Eh....I probably won't.:shrug:
 

wdwmagic

Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
If wdwmagic wants to let us know which bathroom this grafitti was seen in, I'd be happy to go check it out this evening and report back. My hunch is that it will have been long gone. :wave:

Right hand side on the way into the Studios at DCA.

For the silver discs, just about every restroom in DL and DCA.

Don't worry about checking it out, I am sure it has been taken care of, noway would that be missed for an extended period. Unlike some people around here, I will give the benefit of the doubt and admit that most likely it had just happened, and was probably fixed the same day.
 

wdwmagic

Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Yeah, except that when you study guest flow in the building guests still aren't viewing the animal exhibits. They go in, ride the ride, maybe see Turtle Talk, and leave. The other features of the building barely see a fraction of the activity.

I don't get it. The Sea World parks are more attended than some of Disney's parks on both coasts and they don't have to rely on cartoon characters to keep the turnstyles spinning. Maybe Disney guests are lazier...

LOL thats a stretch saying that Sea World parks are more attended!
- Epcot with it's "cartoon characters" 11 million in 2007
- Sea World Orlando 6 million in 2007

The only park that Sea World marginally beats is DCA by 120,000. Not a convincing statement you made there.
 

imagineer boy

Well-Known Member
How about keeping the name and just making it about the future again.:)

Its simply too hard to do that. It usually takes a little less than a decade for somthing to become outdated.

Innoventions hoever, does have to potential ability to show real new technologies since their exibits are temporary.
 

pheneix

Well-Known Member
According to all the numbers, Sea World doesn't even come close to matching Disney's lowest park attendance figures, at DCA. Perhaps it is because they don't have any cartoon characters. I would be curious were these numbers came from, if you have a factual source.

Because the numbers that the TEA put out are 100% completely and utterly WRONG. The only theme park company they get right is Universal Parks and Resorts since GE forces them to make their total attendance publicly available, but even then on a park by park basis there are discrepancies.

I will not endanger my career or the careers of my co-workers by giving a blow by blow account of each park, but I will cite BEC's public disclosure than when they compiled their list Sea World San Antonio was under estimate by nearly a million guests. The correct park attendance for SWSA would have had that park comfortably in the top 20. There were similar discrepancies up and down the list for BEC's parks.

On the flip side, the WDW parks have always been laughably over estimated because the TEA (literally) bases their attendance estimates on the last publicly released attendance figure back in 1997 when WDW announced that the Magic Kingdom pulled down over 17 million guests. WDW had inflated that number by over 3 million guests when it was released so marketing could say that the Magic Kingdom was the most attended park in the world that year for its birthday. It wasn't true then and its not true now.
 

pheneix

Well-Known Member
LOL thats a stretch saying that Sea World parks are more attended!
- Epcot with it's "cartoon characters" 11 million in 2007
- Sea World Orlando 6 million in 2007

The only park that Sea World marginally beats is DCA by 120,000. Not a convincing statement you made there.

See above post I wrote about how the TEA attendance estimates are total BS...

Though I will concede that Epcot is a much more strongly attended park than Sea World. Last year DHS was not more attended than Sea World (yes, their estimates are off by THAT MUCH). I'm not too sure about this year as DHS has seen a strong uptick thanks to its new additions. My guess is that DHS will leap comfortably ahead while Sea World and DAK come to a tie. DAK took a pretty big hit when DHS started pulling its own.

But seriously, for godsakes, does anyone REALLY believe that WDW pulls down over 130,000 guests a day, EVERY DAY?
 
Because the numbers that the TEA put out are 100% completely and utterly WRONG. The only theme park company they get right is Universal Parks and Resorts since GE forces them to make their total attendance publicly available, but even then on a park by park basis there are discrepancies.

I will not endanger my career or the careers of my co-workers by giving a blow by blow account of each park, but I will cite BEC's public disclosure than when they compiled their list Sea World San Antonio was under estimate by nearly a million guests. The correct park attendance for SWSA would have had that park comfortably in the top 20. There were similar discrepancies up and down the list for BEC's parks.

All due respect, but I'll stick with a cited source. Further, even if we allow SWO 1 million MORE visitors than it has on the TEA report it would move up only one spot.

But who knows, perhaps the true figures will come out over the course of the BEC buyout.

I've worked for BEC, and know some very nice people from both BEC and SWO, but they have quite a bit of a "younger brother syndrome" when it comes to attendance.
 

pheneix

Well-Known Member
All due respect, but I'll stick with a cited source. Further, even if we allow SWO 1 million MORE visitors than it has on the TEA report it would move up only one spot.

But who knows, perhaps the true figures will come out over the course of the BEC buyout.

I've worked for BEC, and know some very nice people from both BEC and SWO, but they have quite a bit of a "younger brother syndrome" when it comes to attendance.


Busch Entertainment Corp., the owner of SeaWorld San Antonio, said its 2007 attendance total was 23.8 million, not the 22.3 million reported by the Theme Park Attendance Report for 2007, which presents global attendance data of top theme parks and watermarks.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/MYSA031508_02C_ThemeParks_2f36e7a_html.html


TEA's attendance estimates are total BS. The only reason they're paraded around like the word of god on this website is because they show every Disney park with a large lead (again, they're wrong. The only two Disney parks with significant gaps in the millions over the competition are MK and Epcot).

The "little brother" is kicking ______ right now and is growing their entire portfolio in Florida while tourism overall is shrinking.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
:confused:

Ironically, my experience is the exact opposite: I find that DL's CMs generally don't care as much as WDW's.

I also think Disney is still the best in Florida, with Sea World/Busch coming in second. Even though I love roller coasters, Universal just doesn't do it for me, and their obnoxious employees don't help.

Universal's employees are rather rude and the reason I will no longer visit that park. I have it on record with Guest Services how rude their employees are, how they talk down to the guests of the park.... I cancelled my annual pass for Universal... NEVER AGAIN!!!!!!
 

jaredliu

Active Member
I have to disagree. wdw74 seems to have an axe to grind beyond just wanting improvements at WDW. However he has made some good points and definitely has good information even if it's overstated at times. I don't think Steve gets "mad". He is really tolerant of reasoned discussion but not so much for groundless attacks like yours :lookaroun
Accusing someone showing his/her "true color" is what you called "groundless atrack", not a reasoned discussion. Of course you don't care those attacks, because they are towards someone who criticizes wdw.
 

JCorduroy

Active Member
http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/MYSA031508_02C_ThemeParks_2f36e7a_html.html


TEA's attendance estimates are total BS. The only reason they're paraded around like the word of god on this website is because they show every Disney park with a large lead (again, they're wrong. The only two Disney parks with significant gaps in the millions over the competition are MK and Epcot).

The "little brother" is kicking ______ right now and is growing their entire portfolio in Florida while tourism overall is shrinking.

Ummm...how can an 'estimate' be BS? An estimate, according to Dictionary.com is "to form an approximate judgment or opinion regarding the worth, amount, size, weight, etc." - it's never stated to be an exact number, it's an estimate based upon a myriad of sources and information - and therefor will be off in many cases. Honestly, do you think anyone actually believes that a certain park gets "5,800,000" attendees exactly every year? No, it's rounded down or up to the nearest 100,000 I'm willing to bet. Thus, great discrepencies in the actuals vs. estimated projections.

And, whilst the little brother may indeed be kicking patootie, I have a hard time believing that they'll show sustained growth in their portfolio once infatuation with Aquatica runs out. Not to knock the Busch parks - I think they're awesome, I truly do (BG Williamsburg is still my favorite theme park to this day, though I haven't been there in YEARS now) - but I just don't see them as being a big a draw as the Disney (or even, begrudgingly as I strongly dislike their parks) or Universal parks. The built in symbolism that Disney carries with them is truly unmatched in almost any business sector - you're hard pressed to find that type of instant money draw. Shamu, as cool as the big guy is, doesn't hold a candle (or fish bucket, I suppose) to the draw that is Mickey, Minnie, Goofy, Donald, Stitch, Aladdin, Cinderella, The Muppets, etc. At the end of the day, he's a killer whale - he's not a character. :)
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I have to side with Steve on this one, (using a popular idea to revitalize a dead area, and in turn exposing guests to essentially what was there all along, both thematically and edutainment-wise), but then again I'm not an Epcot purist. Heck, that's a microcosm of what they've done with the whole park. I think the formula for modern Epcot is genius, and a success, namely, paying homage to your roots while making a park that appeals to every guest demographic.

That being said, I agree the Future theme is not there, so I think it should join Yesterland. They should simply come up with a better name that fits their obvious strategy for the greatest park at WDW. You can entertain, educate and inspire without being constrained by the single concept of futurism.


One might argue, and I would and will, that FW's bold theme of a future where anything was possible was as bold and visionary as anything. It was the exact opposite of constraining.

Epcot is a far less grander place than EPCOT Center was because it's just a jumble of stuff thrown against a wall. Some of it's great, some of it's good, some of it is ok and some is just plain bad. But none of it shows a care for what was a very simple cohesive theme ... and cartoon fish and turtles are simply a cheap easy way out, duuuuude.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Great points below, all ... and well worth expounding upon.

Three weeks ago. And like I said, I can't imagine how you would walk away with the opinion that WDW is better maintained than DLR. Just a few ways that DLR blows WDW out of the water:

1.) Streets. The streets at DLR are pressure washed on a fairly regular basis and are spotless. Hell, generally they are clean they literally shine. Compare to WDW where every park has chewing gum stains and drink stains all over. WDW also has a bad habit of letting ODV vendors setting up shop anywhere they damn well please and letting their coolers drain all over the sidewalk making the problem worse. This is not only bad show, its a safety hazard!

To look at WDW walkways, especially at MK one would think they never get pressure cleaned anymore. ***To all young 'uns/newbies, but the MK used to be pressure cleaned EVERY SINGLE NIGHT and painting was done nightly and lighbulbs were changed before they could burn out*** I have had CMs tell me they have witnessed cleanings so I can't say they don't do them anymore, but clearly they aren't as often or as frequent.

Gum splotches on MK (and EPCOT) walkways are a huge problem. There's a reason why Walt didn't want gum sold in DL (and why it still isn't sold to this day at any parks). But they used to have people who would literally take putty knives and remove any. Now? well, you might as well be in Six Flags in some places.

Forget DL for a second. Go across town to Sea World. I didn't see any gum at all when I was there last month. Now either SW attracts a higher caliber guest who doesn't spit gum out anywhere (not likely, Orlando is Orlando) or Busch has people clean it up immediately. You know ... the Disney Way!

The proliferation of ODV is a major reason why WDW parks are so dirty. Go back to 1988 and you'd find very few carts ... a few ice cream carts, a few churro carts ... and you'd also find walkways and sidewalks that were incredibly clean and maintained.


2.) Ride ops. DLR rides get higher hourly counts than their WDW counterparts in every possible comparison. There is not a single attraction in Florida that operates more efficiently than its California counterpart (even Tower of Terror, which has a higher operational goal in Florida since it can dispatch more ride vehicles!) DLR also has their attendants spiel to every ride vehicle as its guests depart, a personal touch that you will never find in the swamp.

One might say in many cases, Dinosaur at DAK and Snow White at MK stand out in my mind, CMs have no clue how to even dispatch vehicles correctly to ensure a quality show. In both cases, vehicles piled up at the end totally ruining the ending on my most recent visit. It ed me off, but I have been on the rides many times and will be again. What about if it's someone's only visit? Having your time rover stop right before the climactic scene ... sit in the dark for 10-15 seconds and then rush thru the final scene which is now not timed correctly is just godawful show.


3.) Ride maintenance. It is a challenge to find broken ride effects on attractions at DLR. In Florida there are so many effects broken on Dinosaur and Expedition Everest that their own staff doesn't even know the effects ever existed!

It's not just the cast. Some effects haven't worked on some attractions in so long that when they finally are fixed, I'll likely be saying 'is that new?' It reminds me of the laser effect at the top of SSE (in the last incarnation they were right after the boy talking to the girl in Japan) when you entered the tunnel into the dome ... there were lasers there that hadn't worked in over a DECADE when Siemens came in and took over sponsorship. They got them working for the final 4-5 months before the ride went down and I am sure people thought they were new ... they weren't, they just hadn't ever been fixed.



4.) Park maintenance. Again, faded buildings and torn signage is a regular occurance in WDW. That stuff simply does not fly in DLR. Everytime I visit the park I see a building under scaffolding getting repainted. To be fair, I've seen a handful of buildings under scaffolds at WDW too, but that is because they were literally about to collapse from wood rot.

Yeah. Too bad buildings don't stand up to Florida's weather conditions as they do on the left coast. Do people not see how bad most of Main Street's frames and columns and anything else wooden look?

I just don't see how WDW could be considered a better maintained property than DLR under any circumstance. I'm sorry dude, I just can't. I also find it pretty interesting that you keep citing examples of Paradise Pier as examples of bad show at DCA when it is about to be bulldozed in a few weeks anyway. There is still no excuse for bad show though.

Now, now it isn't going to be bulldozed. It's just going to be made more magical.

And don't blame the Imagineers for how PP turned out. If you ever saw Tim Delaney's concepts for the land and realized how much got chopped out you'd understand why it turned out as it did. Tim is one of WDI's gems, and a very nice guy as well, and if you saw the work he did on DLP's Discoveryland (he was producer of the land) you'd realize that sometimes it isn't the fault of the artist but the people in charge.

Sorry, this is a bit of a tangent/rant but the sad fact is that the DCA that opened was vastly dumbed down from the original concept (much like everything Disney has done the past decade).

Anyone who defends Mission Space at Epcot ought to search out the three previous plans for a space pavilion and ask if this WalMart/LCD approach to theme parks really should be the Disney way of the 21st century?



As far as Aquatica vs. Typhoon Lagoon is concerned, it will hold its own in the years to come. Right now there is a very aggressive expansion project that has been greenlit to dramatically expand the size and scope of the park. I guarantee you it won't be sixteen years before it receives its first major addition!

Very good point. Aquatica opened. Was a huge success and Busch is goinf full throttle with an expansion plan.

TL opened ... and also was a huge success ... and ... and ... nothing happened until Crush and Gusher opened two years ago.

Oh ... and a little birdie told me that if the winter season is as bad as some think it will be that TL will NOT open in late March from its longest ever (due to shoddy construction) rehab, but will remain shuttered until possibly May or even June. That's right ... closed through Spring Break.

So when BB reaches capacity where are all those water park lovers going to go? River Country? Oh yeah, they're letting that place sit and rot until some kids from the campground sneak in (not that you have to) and drown. No. They'll go to Aquatica.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I have to disagree. wdw74 seems to have an axe to grind beyond just wanting improvements at WDW. However he has made some good points and definitely has good information even if it's overstated at times. I don't think Steve gets "mad". He is really tolerant of reasoned discussion but not so much for groundless attacks like yours :lookaroun

An axe to grind?

Sorry, but no. My only reason for posting what I post is a sincere desire to see WDW live up to its amazing legacy.

Too many people who call themselves fans need to ask themselves what exactly they are fans of.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Accusing someone showing his/her "true color" is what you called "groundless atrack", not a reasoned discussion. Of course you don't care those attacks, because they are towards someone who criticizes wdw.

Who can argue with such clear logic :lookaroun
 

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