So ... news and rumors?

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
Ah, the main misconception regarding so-called EPCOT purists. Apparently, if you aren't happy with how the park has developed and discuss the things that EPCOT Center did right that it shouldn't have stopped doing, that means you want everything old brought back verbatim. :rolleyes:
Exactly...We just want them to stop taking the easy way out.:rolleyes:
 

DisneyMusician2

Well-Known Member
Ah, the main misconception regarding so-called EPCOT purists. Apparently, if you aren't happy with how the park has developed and discuss the things that EPCOT Center did right that it shouldn't have stopped doing, that means you want everything old brought back verbatim. :rolleyes:

My point is that things are not as bad or as far from the original concept as many would have you believe. Just my opinion. I loved the original Epcot, yet I believe there is a vision that still persists through the park, if you are willing to see it.
 

MousDad

New Member
Personally, I will never say anything bad about an Epcot purist, or anything bad about vintage Epcot. Vintage Epcot was undeniably a masterpiece. If it wasn't, modern Epcot wouldn't be successful.

I think of modern Epcot as changing the strategy without changing the vision. A sort of thoughtfully executed pragmatism, if you will. Not dumbing the product down to the ignorant masses, but building a bridge for the ignorant masses to climb up.

And I still say it's the greatest example in the world of a theme park where a guest of any age (from toddler to senior) can have a equally full, exciting and thoroughly enjoyable experience.
 

Mr.EPCOT

Active Member
My point is that things are not as bad or as far from the original concept as many would have you believe. Just my opinion. I loved the original Epcot, yet I believe there is a vision that still persists through the park, if you are willing to see it.

I understand and respect that, and to be honest, there is nothing bad about most of the attractions individually, they just would have worked better supplementing updated versions of what was already there. Come for the thrill, stay for the enlightenment.

Personally, I will never say anything bad about an Epcot purist, or anything bad about vintage Epcot. Vintage Epcot was undeniably a masterpiece. If it wasn't, modern Epcot wouldn't be successful.

I think of modern Epcot as changing the strategy without changing the vision. A sort of thoughtfully executed pragmatism, if you will. Not dumbing the product down to the ignorant masses, but building a bridge for the ignorant masses to climb up.

And I still say it's the greatest example in the world of a theme park where a guest of any age (from toddler to senior) can have a equally full, exciting and thoroughly enjoyable experience.

And that's the challenge, isn't it? To retain EPCOT as a masterpiece, yet make sure its popular and profitable. Mona Lisa with a kick. And yes, it's by far the best park for everybody of all ages!
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Modern Epcot gets a bad rap from some. It has problems, but they took a sterile and in many ways boring experience into something that can be educational and enjoyed. Many people forget that Epcot was a park that wasn't always doing so well. Now its a different story
Epcot HAD to change, yes, but the cheap and fragmented route it took caused more harm than good. Look at the one-of-a-kind cutting edge ride systems, effects, films and architecture it had in the 80`s. If rehabs and new attractions had followed that route it`d still be a one of a kind park today, instead of playing catch up with other nearby attractions.
 

Enigma

Account Suspended
I agree and more power to you. My AP's will not be renewed until a product is offered that merits the price tag. It no longer does IMHO.

So now I guess I have to go whitewater rafting or something :)

Same here I will not renew my AP until I see a restoration of high standards like the disney parks used to have 15 years ago as well some major investment in new (non cartoon tie-in) attractions at the parks.

The faster everyone drops there APs and stops going to the parks the faster Disney can turn around.
 

glendroid

Active Member
Same here I will not renew my AP until I see a restoration of high standards like the disney parks used to have 15 years ago as well some major investment in new (non cartoon tie-in) attractions at the parks.

The faster everyone drops there APs and stops going to the parks the faster Disney can turn around.


is all you ever say stop buying from disney, so we can teach them a lesson?

its like a one track cd..
 

Missing20K

Well-Known Member
is all you ever say stop buying from disney, so we can teach them a lesson?

its like a one track cd..


Completely off topic, but I just couldn't resist.

Sign of the times??

People used to say "you sound like a broken record." Now, you're a one track CD. I wonder how long it will be before people start saying "You sound like your iTunes has froze."

And now back to your previously scheduled programming....
 

Enigma

Account Suspended
is all you ever say stop buying from disney, so we can teach them a lesson?

its like a one track cd..

Maybe if you tried to read and understand my rationale and seen how passionatly I care about the parks you would understand why I keep repeating the message over and over until it sinks into even the thickest of skulls.

By the way, I was responding to somebody else's comments its not like I just randomly piped in here to push my agenda.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
Epcot HAD to change, yes, but the cheap and fragmented route it took caused more harm than good. Look at the one-of-a-kind cutting edge ride systems, effects, films and architecture it had in the 80`s. If rehabs and new attractions had followed that route it`d still be a one of a kind park today, instead of playing catch up with other nearby attractions.

Doesn't that describe all of WDW since DAK opened?

:wave:

At some point, management decided WDW was good enough, and they stopped focusing on making it better. (Marketing campaigns don't count.) Now that the competition has taken advantage of Disney's period of laziness from 1998–2005, Disney is having to play catch-up...too bad they let a lot of needless bureaucracy fill the levels of management.

People ask why Walt himself, and then WDI of the 70s and 80s, were able to get so much done. I think the reason is that people didn't have to jump through so many meaningless hoops to accomplish something simple.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Do you think that the changes at Epcot have been to the detriment of the park (not conceptually or thematically, but rather institutionally)? Also, do you not think that Epcot, while facing the necessity of change to insure survivability and profitability, has stayed relatively true to its original visions (I still say plural, because I think it's been about more than futurism all along. Maybe not in Walt's mind for his community, but as a theme park.)?

I agree with most of your criticisms of MK and DHS, but as a Disney fan I think that modern Epcot, even with its few gaffs, is something to really be proud of. I guess that makes me a DOE.

I absolutely feel the changes at EPCOT have been to the detriment of the park ... 100%, no doubt, absolutely.

Understand that EPCOT is still my favorite WDW park, but also understand that EC was the park that made me a Disney parks fan for life. It truly proved that 'If we can dream it, we can do it.'

It was supposed to be a constantly changing evolving permanent world's fair that would showcase new and emreging technolgies with a bold look ahead to a brighter future for all as well as showcase nations/cultures/cuisines of the world through the WS pavilions.

What you have now is a vastly cheaper dumbled down (say it with me people ... ) WalMarted park. The reason it is still so wonderful is more a tribute to the amazing talents at WED/WDI in the 70s and 80s then due to anything that's been done in the past dozen years.

Look at FW ... it's a total mess ... only two pavilions realistically have been updated successfully to carry the messages they debuted with -- those being SSE and The Land. The Seas with Nemo and Mission Space succeed on some level, but are pale to what was and what could have been.

The whole message of EPCOT has been watered down ... but that shouldn't be a surprise. Look at the MK ... it might as well be renamed Phil Holmes' Magical Disney Character Park and Dining Experience ... because it's all about Disney characters (and no, this wasn't what the park was all about at all and any true Disney fan would know and understand that) in every land. So it's all cartoon all the time. I almost expect to see an animatronic Goofy in a fife and drum outfit join Obama in the new HoP!

Then look at The Park Formerly Known as The Disney-MGM Studios. What a trainwreck that place has become. You know that just as soon as you come in and see a giant cartoon hat plopped down in front of the Chinese Theater.

This is what WDW has become all about ... LCD entertainment for people who don't expect more and don't care or want it.

So to get back to your original points/questions, in some ways Epcot has remained true to its goals and original identity ... especially in World Showcase (excepting the awful idea to throw the characters into Mexico's boat ride or the terrible and smarmy redo of O Canada ... has Disney forgotten how to simply film amazing scenery with Circlevision cameras?). Of course, WS remains wonderful largely because they've stayed away from many changes/additions.

FW ... that's another story. It feels so much smaller and less special than it once did ... Energy is very tired (and proves yet again that adding celebs is a bad idea), WoL is DOA and sits as a special events venue with its three attractions walled off, Horizons (a 15-minute immersive ride dedicated to the ideas ... the basics of EPCOT) is replaced by a very expensive simulator ride that has a tendency to make so many people sick that half the capacity has been changed into mall-like simulator rides ... Test Track is a soulless ride that some find 'thrilling ... Imagination shows a complete lack thereof, the Seas have been overtaken by cartoon fish ... so that leaves SSE and Land as the only two that have kept their soul despite being revamped.

Innoventions? No comment.

So ... while much of Epcot is still wonderful, so much has been dumbed down and taken away. It's a much smaller place and a much less special one than it was 15-20 years ago.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I wish I had a time machine to take some of my fellow CMs back to the 70's and 80's to show them what this place is supposed to be like. I have plenty of friends who have all migrated down here as a result of the College Program, and have only really been here in recent years. It was literally a paradise out in the middle of nowhere, just out beyond some quiet, pleasant farming communities. I think the effect of that isolation had an invaluable effect on the vibe of your experience at Walt Disney World that's lost today. It certainly contributed having local CMs that were generally very excited and pleased to have Disney in town. Now, the growth of the tourism industry here has created a vicious cycle of bringing non-Floridians down here and scaring away the locals. I have a theory that if Universal hadn't come to town, Orlando wouldn't have quite been pushed over the edge like that. Walt bought all this land so that they wouldn't have same problem as at Disneyland of reality crowding in (or used to, I don't think it's as bad nowadays with their expansion), but unfortunately it's happened anyways, with the tourism expansion, and the way Disney has handled and organized its land within its own borders.



If I may address this, the whole point of EPCOT is getting people engaged in a better tomorrow. Not just what will be new in the years to come but also to provide understanding of other cultures to create a hope for peace in tomorrow's world. World Showcase is relatively unchanged, but Future World has several pavilions now that lack conveying any sense of inspiration or optimism, all of which have the potential to, even in today's modern short attention span society. Spaceship Earth is okay, but panders towards giving you a giggle at seeing your face inserted into a cheap cartoon portraying few realistic concepts for the future. Innoventions is a shell of its previous incarnations, showing Disney's desperation at getting somebody, anybody to rent some exhibit space, technology oriented or not (Fire safety? Come on, it's noble and a fun game, but utterly irrelevant to science and technology.) Universe of Energy is an outdated snoozefest for most people, when that is such a hot topic right now. Wonders of Life goes without saying. Mission: SPACE is high on the future theme, but what little information it conveys about space exploration is lost to most of the park Guests who can't or won't ride it. Test Track, once again fun, but just for a pure adrenaline kick, and doesn't teach you anything that you don't already know from your typical car commercial. You can't tell me that people wouldn't love to see and interact with the new concepts of cars and trains and such that could be coming in the future. Supposedly, the concept cars of TransCenter at World of Motion was the most photographed spot in Walt Disney World in its day. We all know what is wrong with Imagination. The Land is a perfect example of an EPCOT pavilion, and Living with the Land is something that most people are interested in (when I am driving Monorails, talking to Guests about EPCOT, they always recognize that as "the boat ride with the hydroponics), is a relaxing, stress-free ride, always has a decent wait time, is actually updated at a very reasonable pace, and actually contributes research to the agricultural industry. Soarin' is somewhat shoehorned into the building and something more of a World Showcase travelogue, but still ties in to the topic of the pavilion, and I suspect will even more so once it is eventually updated with a new film. Circle of Life could use some freshening, but a nice diversion for kids. And finally, The (Living?) Seas is now just a Fantasyland ride with an aquarium attached. It's been said that the pavilion is just using Nemo to lure Guests into learning about sea life, but let's be honest here, they're just going through the ride, stop for a second to look into the tank, the little ones crawl around and get a picture in the big shark mouth, the family gets a kick out of Crush talking to the kids and doing some tricks and saying DUUUUUDE, and Dad maybe picks up a MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! t-shirt on the way out. Most of the times I've seen Turtle Talk, none of the kids ever ask anything about turtles, usually about something from the movie. Fun stuff, but you're kidding yourself if you think the average family is gaining any kind of knowledge about the oceans at this pavilion, and certainly not a scant thing to be found about sea exploration technology and what we're doing to explore those mysterious depths.

Sorry, that turned out to be more of a fan-boy rant than I intended it to be. :lookaroun

Uhm ... actually what you posted was remarkably on target and quite the opposite of what I'd call fan-boy rant.

Most fan boys would either defend all the Epcot 1995-present changes or suggest some stupid impossibility like 'can't they rebuild Horizons in Tomorrowland' or the like.

You posted the antithesis of that. And you did it well.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Off Topic:
As far as I'm concerned, WDW is STILL an oasis in the middle of central Florida. The city of Orlando is like a massive trash heap. Ironically, it wasn't like this until Disney exploded in the 80s.

A very good point.

Central Florida may have been a bit rednecky (hell, it still is) ... but it also was a quiet, peaceful, friendly, clean, almost crime-free, green little bit of heaven in the 1970s and 80s ... and then Disney went pedal to the floor to buildout and it affected everything on the outside as well.

To see the City Beautiful in the 1980s vs today is the difference between black and white, hot and cold, Biden and Palin! In other words, VERY!
 

Mr.EPCOT

Active Member
What you have now is a vastly cheaper dumbled down (say it with me people ... ) WalMarted park. The reason it is still so wonderful is more a tribute to the amazing talents at WED/WDI in the 70s and 80s then due to anything that's been done in the past dozen years.

I find this to be generally true of everything at the Walt Disney Company nowadays. Current management is just standing on the shoulders of giants.
 

DisneyDellsDude

New Member
The question is, does anyone think it's going to change for the better in the upcoming future?

WDI has the potential, but will it ever be able to shine through?
 

MousDad

New Member
I absolutely feel the changes at EPCOT have been to the detriment of the park ... 100%, no doubt, absolutely.

What you have now is a vastly cheaper dumbled down (say it with me people ... ) WalMarted park.

Categorically and wholeheartedly disagree.
 

MousDad

New Member
Most fan boys would either defend all the Epcot 1995-present changes or suggest some stupid impossibility like 'can't they rebuild Horizons in Tomorrowland' or the like.

Sorry, but I think most of the fanboys are on your side on this one. :lol:
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
I am so glad I started this thread ... it seems to be entertaining the young folks! :animwink:

I know you're not good with working the features here, but I'd recommend learning to use the ignore feature...for your sanity's sake. ;)

A very good point.

Central Florida may have been a bit rednecky (hell, it still is) ... but it also was a quiet, peaceful, friendly, clean, almost crime-free, green little bit of heaven in the 1970s and 80s ... and then Disney went pedal to the floor to buildout and it affected everything on the outside as well.

To see the City Beautiful in the 1980s vs today is the difference between black and white, hot and cold, Biden and Palin! In other words, VERY!

Since I'm getting to the party late here, I won't comment on all that's been discussed (a lot of which is just a rehash of previous threads in which I have made my opinions known). One new point of interest that I find intriguing: the WDW blogger. I had never considered it before, but it's something we definitely could use.

You mention Kevin Yee as being the closest thing to one that we have. I don't know the man, but in reading his articles, I've gotten the impression that his posts are based on first hand observations, recycled internet posts, or sensationalist crap that generally discredits him (although, to his "credit" this is a shortcoming of a lot of bloggers). What I'm saying is that it sounds like he doesn't have any inside information. If that's all that is holding him back, and certain posters here recognize the necessity of a WDW blogger, why not develop a repoire with him and provide that contact that he needs. :shrug:

Oh, and WDW1974, maybe it's just me, but the constant political jabs in your posts are getting annoying. You've made your political disposition known. Continually doing so only distracts from the substantive content of your posts, which is usually very captivating.
 

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