So ... news and rumors?

[wdwmagic]

I just miss the daily pictorials that various people posted. What happened? Thank goodness for EpcotServo, he's the last one left!

Check out the front page of www.wdwmagic.com - I've been adding (and conitnue to add) daily (ish) photo updates for the last 10 years

 

[wdwmagic]

I mean no disrespect when I ask this, because I really just want to know. How recently have you been to DLR and WDW? I can't imagine anyone walking away from those two resorts with that opinion if they've visited within the last 2-3 years.

I was lucky enough to make a flying visit last week - which is why I find this high praise for DLR to be so off base. If I hadnt seen it for myself I would think that DLR was the best kept place in the world, in reality it isnt. I saw a 10" by 6" piece of black marker pen graphiti on a white tile wall in a DCA bathroom area - I have never seen or heard anything like that at WDW. When were you last there?

 

[wdwmagic]

Aquatica is the most popular water park in the world right now. Period. Blizzard Beach and Typhoon Lagoon took a serious hit in attendance this year while Aquatica is poised to hit the 2 million park in only 10 months of operation.

I have no idea if what you are saying is true, but anything that just opens up has a spike. Let's see how Aquatica is doing when it's as old as Typhoon lagoon. I'd be willing to bet not very well.

 

[wdwmagic]

They revamped and brought back their Submarine Voyage for starters...

It's a nice ride, and I admire the scope of it and the effort that went into it. Fact is though, for me, Nemo at Epcot is the better ride. It just flows better and is a more fun experience.

 

[Lee]

Wow....this is kinda troubling to me. Something must have changed.

I haven't been out to DL since late '06 (going next year for sure), and I distinctly remember noticing, as did my wife, that everything was much cleaner and better kept than at WDW.

Granted, I'm at WDW at least monthly so I may be a bit more critical there. However, DL certainly did make me think "This is how a Disney park should be."

Curious.....

 

[wdwmagic]

Wow....this is kinda troubling to me. Something must have changed.

I haven't been out to DL since late '06 (going next year for sure), and I distinctly remember noticing, as did my wife, that everything was much cleaner and better kept than at WDW.

Granted, I'm at WDW at least monthly so I may be a bit more critical there. However, DL certainly did make me think "This is how a Disney park should be."

Curious.....

I've had a few lucky business trips out that way over the last year. Both times I felt WDW edges DLR in terms of cleanliness and upkeep. I love DL, dont get me wrong, but I get tired of hearing on forums how great the upkeep is compared to WDW. It simply isnt true, and despite my greater involvement with WDW than DLR, I was looking at it objectively and without bias.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

It's a nice ride, and I admire the scope of it and the effort that went into it. Fact is though, for me, Nemo at Epcot is the better ride. It just flows better and is a more fun experience.

But it does not belong in EPCOT. (had to say it!):lol:

 

[wdwmagic]

But it does not belong in EPCOT. (had to say it!):lol:

Whatever purists think of it, Nemo totally turned around the Seas pavilion and made it into a pavilion that people WANT to go into. You cant say that before. The years before Nemo were desperate for Seas attendance. They totally turned it around. You sometimes have to remember that these attractions need to appeal to the masses, not a small group of us that debate what does and doesnt belong in Epcot.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Whatever purists think of it, Nemo totally turned around the Seas pavilion and made it into a pavilion that people WANT to go into. You cant say that before. The years before Nemo were desperate for Seas attendance. They totally turned it around. You sometimes have to remember that these attractions need to appeal to the masses, not a small group of us that debate what does and doesnt belong in Epcot.

Won't argue with you there...

BUT THE THEME! GAH!:lol::lol: How the heck is that futuristic? How does it inspire, and inform? It's a great ride, I love it. It pleases the masses...but WDI has always been known for making entertainment with a purpose. EPCOT's purpose is "edutainment". We both know that no longer happens in TSWNAF.

 

[wdwmagic]

Won't argue with you there...

BUT THE THEME! GAH!:lol::lol: How the heck is that futuristic? How does it inspire, and inform? It's a great ride, I love it. It pleases the masses...but WDI has always been known for making entertainment with a purpose. EPCOT's purpose is "edutainment". We both know that no longer happens in TSWNAF.

Well it inspires and informs by getting people into the pavilion in the first place. Once they are actually inside they have access to the animal trainers, the exhibits and other resources. Previously, they wernt even going into the pavilion, so they were receiving no education what-so-ever. I would be willing to bet that kids learn far more from the pavilion in it's current state than they did previously. Purely because they now have an interest in what goes on, because of the neat Nemo ride at the beginning. It holds their interest and makes them want to learn a little more.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Well it inspires and informs by getting people into the pavilion in the first place. Once they are actually inside they have access to the animal trainers, the exhibits and other resources. Previously, they wernt even going into the pavilion, so they were receiving no education what-so-ever. I would be willing to bet that kids learn far more from the pavilion in it's current state than they did previously. Purely because they now have an interest in what goes on, because of the neat Nemo ride at the beginning. It holds their interest and makes them want to learn a little more.

Maybe that happens, maybe...It could. But with today's society, I doubt it.


....aaand that's enough for me. I'm wayy to tired. Goodnight ladies and gentlemen.:lol::wave:

 

[Enigma]

Whatever purists think of it, Nemo totally turned around the Seas pavilion and made it into a pavilion that people WANT to go into. You cant say that before. The years before Nemo were desperate for Seas attendance. They totally turned it around. You sometimes have to remember that these attractions need to appeal to the masses, not a small group of us that debate what does and doesnt belong in Epcot.

Did you also know there wree several other big proposals for the Living Seas pavillion that actually would have fit in Epcot and would have been alot nicer than what we ended up with? They went with Nemo becaus it was cheaper (They could now clone things going into Disneylands Submarine Voyage) and it was a nice cash in plain and simple. You slap NEW on anything and hype it up the guests will come to it so you cant say that the specific nemo overlay is just what the doctor ordered a better attraction would have probably drawn even bigger crowds.

 

[WDW1974]

Oh come on! Now thats shown your true colors! You've just confirmed you are just hell bent on bashing WDW at any possible chance. Aquatica is a GREAT park! Bare metal, off the shelf water slides into a pool. That makes a great park does it? You have such high expectations of WDW, and yet you would classify Aquatica as "great".

Now, you come on. Do you really think that post is fair?

What are my true colors? Why do you feel I'm hell bent on 'bashing WDW at any possible chance?' ... let alone for praising a very high quality product of a competitor?

Aquatica is a great water park. Right now I'd put it right up there with Typhoon Lagoon for my favorite water park on the planet.

It's certainly a lot more than bare metal and off the shelf slides.

From 'Roa's Rapids', the first of its kind (in Orlando anyway) river ride that is anything but lazy to the lazy river that goes past beautiful aquatic environments to even the slides that pass thru the Commerson's (sp?)Dolphin exhibit (which I actually think is one of the weakest things at the park as you really can't see them for the most part), to the downhill racers slides (similar to those at Blizzard Beach) I find very little at Aquatica to be off the shelf or ordinary.

The food is first rate and a bargain compared to Disney. And the employees were very nice and professional.

Aquatica is absolutely the best new addition to Orlando in 2008 and, if current numbers hold up, will be viewed as nothing short of a huge success.

That in no way diminishes Disney's water parks, which are high caliber and terrific on their own merits. I don't know why you equated my praise for Busch's park as a bash on Disney.

If I wanted to bash Disney in the water park department I'd just to point out to the disgusting way they closed River Country, a beautiful and unique park that I spent countless happy days as a child, teen and adult in, and let it sit to this day decaying in pure view of anyone who walks or boats by. But that's another subject entirely ... and again speaks to the amazing lack of leadership shown year in and year out by WDW's exec 'leadership' team.

 

[WDW1974]

no offense to you Steve but Aquatica is much better than you give it credit for and if you are going to use the bar metal argument then you have to point the finger at Typhoon Lagoons much promoted addition a few years ago Crush'n Gusher which is just as bar metal in design.

The fact is when you are in this area all the time it becomes apparant who is and who isnt investing in their products. It used to be Disney, now all we are seeing is Disney cutting back and the other two players in town stepping up to the plate.

That's what's so infuriating about hearing about Disney playing things conservatively.

Universal and Busch right now are in much more difficult positions than the Mouse is ... but they're investing. They're also keeping up their parks as well.

Look at Sea World. It opened in 1973, less than two years after the MK debuted. Walk around it and compare it to the MK and then see who's really No. 1 when it comes to clean, fresh looking parks in Orlando.

Why is it that SW looks like it opened about when DAK did?
(oh, please don't tell me that WDW is so much bigger ... because frankly that's like saying it's OK that Uncle Bill's house is a pigsty because it's six bedrooms, four baths and 5400sf and Uncle Fred's is clean because it's only a 3/2 with 2400sf)

 

[WDW1974]

Wanted to jump in on your would have should have could have point about some of the attraction re-do's that were designed but not fully realized. I was in a position back in 2004/05 to be up in the Exec Offices above Main Street on a weekly basis and some of the concept boards sitting in ole Phils office for Pirates and yes even COP which at that point they were talking about moving to where MILF is now were absolutely amazing. I am not sure if Phil and his crew are the main reasons things have gotten as bad as they are, but it has to be someone locally because the proposals I saw at that point were nothing short of spectacular.

I love to bash Phil -- and he certainly deserves it as no MK VP has ever been in charge when so many bad choices have been made and so much damage has been done -- but I have to say I don't quite understand the CoP moving to where MILF is comment.

You must mean a different concept for CoP was proposed to move there since it would have made no sense and been impossible to move the show as is into the Circlevision building.

Am I missing something?

 

[WDW1974]

I was lucky enough to make a flying visit last week - which is why I find this high praise for DLR to be so off base. If I hadnt seen it for myself I would think that DLR was the best kept place in the world, in reality it isnt. I saw a 10" by 6" piece of black marker pen graphiti on a white tile wall in a DCA bathroom area - I have never seen or heard anything like that at WDW. When were you last there?

I know this isn't directed at me ... but I was there in September (parts of four days) after spending parts of two days in August at HKDL.

I never saw the degree of problems that I saw at WDW over eight days in October.

You can always hit any park (or part thereof) on a bad day/night/weekend ... but the general sense of neglect and allowing things to simply go unchecked, in my experience, happens with much more frequency at WDW than anywhere else in the Disney Universe.

The MK shows the worst of it in my experience, DAK the best ... but none is immune.

 

[WDW1974]

Wow....this is kinda troubling to me. Something must have changed.

I haven't been out to DL since late '06 (going next year for sure), and I distinctly remember noticing, as did my wife, that everything was much cleaner and better kept than at WDW.

Granted, I'm at WDW at least monthly so I may be a bit more critical there. However, DL certainly did make me think "This is how a Disney park should be."

Curious.....

I think there has been a slight drop in upkeep overall at DL and DCA since Michael O'Grattan (the former longtime WDW exec ... he was head of MK entertainment for a time in the 90s and most recently had been VP of the Disney-MGM Studios for years) took over as Sr. VP of OPs (No. 2 exec position) when Greg Emmer retired (or got so disgusted with Jay Rasulo he chose an earlier than planned exit as the story behind the scenes goes).

But I wouldn't call it dramatic. Just a few things here and there ... of course, it's still not something you want to see either.

 

[WDW1974]

Whatever purists think of it, Nemo totally turned around the Seas pavilion and made it into a pavilion that people WANT to go into. You cant say that before. The years before Nemo were desperate for Seas attendance. They totally turned it around. You sometimes have to remember that these attractions need to appeal to the masses, not a small group of us that debate what does and doesnt belong in Epcot.

True ... but again that's only part of the story.

Disney tried to kill the Seas entirely. Former Epcot VP Brad Rex was pushing for its closure for a time before he was forced out and when last seen was selling timeshares for Hilton Vacation Club.

The first step to killing the attraction was closing down the sea cabs. Since the ride was in essence the entrance to the attraction, the attendence plummeted ... again, though, this was management's goal.

Nemo is a beloved character/franchise, so sure it makes sense that cartooning the Seas was going to be popular.

But there were at least two serious proposals to revamp the pavilion on a more serious, non-cartoon level (one that would have expanded the pavilion's footprint and another that would have added a TDS touch). Both were considerably more elaborate and more expensive. There's no way of knowing how they would have been received had they been built.

But I don't believe everything has to be brought down to the level of a seven-year-old (and not necessarily an intelligent one) for it to be in a Disney park. The Living Seas was very, very popular for 10-12 maybe 15 years just as it was ... with a very serious tone about exploration and the wonders of the sea.

Now ... we've got cartoon fish ... a kewl AA on a robot arm that has been broken for months ... some jellyfish that look like the local high school drama club made them overnight ... and some kewl projections.

It's by no means bad. I enjoy it. But it isn't cutting edge. It isn't forward thinking. It's by no means as dramatic or as dynamic as its previous incarnation ... and one would think that Disney should be improving on its past work, not taking the WalMart/LCD approach.

Future World shouldn't be about cartoons. And putting them into the park isn't because they are popular. It's not because they can't do anything else.

They're there because they're a quick, cheap, easy fix.

Again, I expect more from Disney because that's what they conditioned me to expect.

 

[MousDad]

Future World shouldn't be about cartoons. And putting them into the park isn't because they are popular. It's not because they can't do anything else.

I have to side with Steve on this one, (using a popular idea to revitalize a dead area, and in turn exposing guests to essentially what was there all along, both thematically and edutainment-wise), but then again I'm not an Epcot purist. Heck, that's a microcosm of what they've done with the whole park. I think the formula for modern Epcot is genius, and a success, namely, paying homage to your roots while making a park that appeals to every guest demographic.

That being said, I agree the Future theme is not there, so I think it should join Yesterland. They should simply come up with a better name that fits their obvious strategy for the greatest park at WDW. You can entertain, educate and inspire without being constrained by the single concept of futurism.

 

[pheneix]

I saw a 10" by 6" piece of black marker pen graphiti on a white tile wall in a DCA bathroom area - I have never seen or heard anything like that at WDW. When were you last there?

Three weeks ago. And like I said, I can't imagine how you would walk away with the opinion that WDW is better maintained than DLR. Just a few ways that DLR blows WDW out of the water:

1.) Streets. The streets at DLR are pressure washed on a fairly regular basis and are spotless. Hell, generally they are clean they literally shine. Compare to WDW where every park has chewing gum stains and drink stains all over. WDW also has a bad habit of letting ODV vendors setting up shop anywhere they damn well please and letting their coolers drain all over the sidewalk making the problem worse. This is not only bad show, its a safety hazard!

2.) Ride ops. DLR rides get higher hourly counts than their WDW counterparts in every possible comparison. There is not a single attraction in Florida that operates more efficiently than its California counterpart (even Tower of Terror, which has a higher operational goal in Florida since it can dispatch more ride vehicles!) DLR also has their attendants spiel to every ride vehicle as its guests depart, a personal touch that you will never find in the swamp.

3.) Ride maintenance. It is a challenge to find broken ride effects on attractions at DLR. In Florida there are so many effects broken on Dinosaur and Expedition Everest that their own staff doesn't even know the effects ever existed!

4.) Park maintenance. Again, faded buildings and torn signage is a regular occurance in WDW. That stuff simply does not fly in DLR. Everytime I visit the park I see a building under scaffolding getting repainted. To be fair, I've seen a handful of buildings under scaffolds at WDW too, but that is because they were literally about to collapse from wood rot.

I just don't see how WDW could be considered a better maintained property than DLR under any circumstance. I'm sorry dude, I just can't. I also find it pretty interesting that you keep citing examples of Paradise Pier as examples of bad show at DCA when it is about to be bulldozed in a few weeks anyway. There is still no excuse for bad show though.

As far as Aquatica vs. Typhoon Lagoon is concerned, it will hold its own in the years to come. Right now there is a very aggressive expansion project that has been greenlit to dramatically expand the size and scope of the park. I guarantee you it won't be sixteen years before it receives its first major addition!