So ... news and rumors?

[jt04]

An axe to grind?

Sorry, but no. My only reason for posting what I post is a sincere desire to see WDW live up to its amazing legacy.

Too many people who call themselves fans need to ask themselves what exactly they are fans of.

I agree and more power to you. My AP's will not be renewed until a product is offered that merits the price tag. It no longer does IMHO.

So now I guess I have to go whitewater rafting or something

 

[TP2000]

I've been trying for a couple years to put together a web of sources that can provide constant, accurate information like Lutz gets but at WDW. If I could get it together I would have a blog going in seconds.
Sadly, my sources are sporadic and much more reluctant than Al's to spill real dirt.

Completely understandable. You, sir, are actually one of the folks that keeps me trolling this board as frequently as I do, because your contributions and your info seem to be the most tuned in and the most interesting. Thank you for that.

It's just so much more convenient when you can read it all at once every six weeks or so in an "Update" like Al Lutz does. It's really quite fun that way, and you know you didn't miss some little tidbit buried on a message board thread about refillable mugs somewhere.

If anything, you would think that in a rather small city like Orlando where the nearly entire civic industry is built around tourism and theme parks, that 10 years into the Internet Age an Orlando insider or two would have popped up to be the Orlando version of Al Lutz. Disneyland sits out here in the middle of one of the largest mega-cities in the world with 20 Million people within a 90 minute drive and there's a thousand other industries that matter more to this region and this economy than a 54 year old theme park.

But somehow Disneyland USA breeds this rabid fan community that supports all of this unofficial online presence that gets all this attention. Al Lutz embodies the difference between Disneyland and WDW. And he gets DisCo insiders who know what they are talking about to spill the beans year after year!

 

[WDW1974]

I've never understood why WDW has no one like Al Lutz. Jim Hill tries, but he's stuck up in a cabin in New Hampshire and his sources never seem to be as good as Al's.

The Internet coverage for WDW seems to be so pandering to management, happily lapping up the latest Disney media party where a few Bloggers are invited to stand at the back of the room and have some cheese cubes with the guy from the Orlando Sentinel.

With the rare exception of threads like this, where you are left weeding through thousands of words to get one or two interesting tidbits, the online coverage of WDW seems to consist solely of mind-numbing discussions about dining plan logistics, refillable mugs, or more DVC timeshares being built in a swamp.

WDW needs an Al Lutz to get the real juicy gossip and show that the drone executives in Team Disney are really only as clued in as the talking points on their teleprompters. :lol:

I think there are a few reasons why.

Part of it is the nature of WDW and Orlando as a transient area/tourist mecca. DL is an institution, and a local and national treasure. WDW isn't viewed that way. At one time it might have had that attatchment to the community (I'd say from about 1971-1986) ... but it got way too big and many of the folks who were either CMs or locals passionate about the place began to move away in the 80s and early 90s when central FLA growth just exploded.

They were the folks, like me, who remember when WDW had one entrance only and you drove past miles of cows, scrub and orange groves to get to it.

When Orange, Osceola and Lake counties started getting paved over, they fled.

The people who replaced them didn't have the same affinity for the Mouse. Indeed, many folks felt Disney lowered the quality of life in the area.

But as someone who's been asked no fewer than six times to write a WDW blog, I can tell you the fan community could use it. And WDW management needs watchdog/activist fans that don't take WalMarting lying down. But it isn't going to be me because ... I kinda ... sometimes ... occassionally ... have something called a life.

Kevin Yee tries to cover WDW for Micechat. And he's very good in some aspects. But he'd be the first to tell you he's no Lutz. And Hill is ... well, he's fading into obscurity completely.

I think he should pay whoever leaked the 'Night Kingdom' boutique park story to him because it was the first thing of substance he has written in a long time ... someone might want to ask him what happened to the guaranteed Shanghai Disneyland announcement he proclamied would follow the Beijing Olympics in September. ... The folks in China were shocked by that one considering they couldn't get the Mouse to agree to key points (the park, btw, will be spectacular IF it ever happens!)

You do make a great point above though about bloggers whose only goal is to get into a Disney media party/announcement event. Those folks will never tell it like it is ... they're just looking for the swag the Mouse leaves in their rooms. ... Although Disney can throw a killer party!

But the bottom line is WDW is, and has been, in desperate need for an advocate ... and one with both the connections and the perspective/experience to make it stand up (in other words, if you were born in the past 20 years or so, it's not likely you!)

If someone wants to pay me six figures a year, I'll think about it.

 

[WDW1974]

Universal's employees are rather rude and the reason I will no longer visit that park. I have it on record with Guest Services how rude their employees are, how they talk down to the guests of the park.... I cancelled my annual pass for Universal... NEVER AGAIN!!!!!!

I don't know where this comes from, but I see lots of it on ... naturally ... Disney-based fan sites.

I've had APs at Uni Florida and Hollywood and honestly don't recall one really rude cast member. I am sure they have plenty though ... as does Disney.

The worst is when Disney CMs are being obnoxious and tell you to 'have a magical day' after not helping you out ... it seems that phrase has a secondary meaning (who would have thunk it?) ... of course, I've turned around and used it on some CMs myself.

But generally speaking to get back to your point, I just don't see Uni having all these rude CMs that some do.

And it's not like I'm blinded by pixie dust there.

 

[jt04]

I think there are a few reasons why.


They were the folks, like me, who remember when WDW had one entrance only and you drove past miles of cows, scrub and orange groves to get to it.

People who never experienced the early days of WDW have no idea what they missed. It would be nearly impossible to describe. Of course the same is true for Florida in general. Thankfully I have a good memory.

 

[TP2000]

You do make a great point above though about bloggers whose only goal is to get into a Disney media party/announcement event. Those folks will never tell it like it is ... they're just looking for the swag the Mouse leaves in their rooms. ... Although Disney can throw a killer party!

Almost 20 years ago now my career led me into big city newspapers in the Northeast for several years. I remember going to the media events staged by big companies like GM, GE, and Disney, whenever they had some new product or campaign to kick off. The seasoned reporters from national media ignored the food and the drinks being served and took an eagle eye to the company. The reporters from the suburban shopper mags that were invited gobbled up the free food and drinks and then wrote gushing pieces for their editors.

Most of the current round of Internet bloggers and site owners attend Disney press release parties and campaign kickoffs. And you can just see it in their coverage how excited they are that they got to wear a plastic hang tag around their neck and have cheese cubes and white wine with people from local TV stations. And God help them if Disney actually gives them a little swag bag, or sends a gimmicky party invitation to their home office where they run the website from. They just fall to pieces in a heap of Disney geekdom and adulation. I've even heard tell of some website owners being comped rooms or meals or perks at Disney theme parks, and that likely sends them into fanboy heaven.

It's cute really, and I don't blame them for their excitement at the "glamour" of a splashy Disney media event. But it doesn't make for very objective journalism or much critical thinking. The writer from the Wall Street Journal is never too impressed with the Mickey Mouse shaped ice cubes in the free martinis at the press event.

 

[WDW1974]

People who never experienced the early days of WDW have no idea what they missed. It would be nearly impossible to describe. Of course the same is true for Florida in general. Thankfully I have a good memory.

As a child who grew up in Florida in the 70s and 80s, all I can say is it is a VERY different place in the 21st century.

And, no, for the most part I don't think the changes have been for the better.

I do wish I had a time machine ( i had one but had to Ebay it when my 401K became worthless) and could take some of the younger people here back to WDW in say 1974, 1984 and 1994 ... show them three decades and how the product was much higher caliber than what it force fed the masses today.

For some reason I have the WDW is Your World Tencennial theme running through my head ... along with the We're Getting Ready theme (resurrected at the EPCOT 25th exhibit) playing in my head now ... I only wish I had truly fully and completely grasped what a special and magical (the real stuff, not the marketing kind) era that was ... but I was just a kid who was eagerly awaiting the next E-Ticket at the MK or the next pavilion at EC.

 

[WDW1974]

Almost 20 years ago now my career led me into big city newspapers in the Northeast for several years. I remember going to the media events staged by big companies like GM, GE, and Disney, whenever they had some new product or campaign to kick off. The seasoned reporters from national media ignored the food and the drinks being served and took an eagle eye to the company. The reporters from the suburban shopper mags that were invited gobbled up the free food and drinks and then wrote gushing pieces for their editors.

Most of the current round of Internet bloggers and site owners attend Disney press release parties and campaign kickoffs. And you can just see it in their coverage how excited they are that they got to wear a plastic hang tag around their neck and have cheese cubes and white wine with people from local TV stations. And God help them if Disney actually gives them a little swag bag, or sends a gimmicky party invitation to their home office where they run the website from. They just fall to pieces in a heap of Disney geekdom and adulation. I've even heard tell of some website owners being comped rooms or meals or perks at Disney theme parks, and that likely sends them into fanboy heaven.

It's cute really, and I don't blame them for their excitement at the "glamour" of a splashy Disney media event. But it doesn't make for very objective journalism or much critical thinking. The writer from the Wall Street Journal is never too impressed with the Mickey Mouse shaped ice cubes in the free martinis at the press event.

I just want you to know, as someone who has been to his share of the parties you mention perhaps even some you were at, that there is so much I'd like to say right now ... so, so, so much ... but I can't.

But oh do I agree with everything you wrote above.

 

[MousDad]

One might argue, and I would and will, that FW's bold theme of a future where anything was possible was as bold and visionary as anything. It was the exact opposite of constraining.

Epcot is a far less grander place than EPCOT Center was because it's just a jumble of stuff thrown against a wall. Some of it's great, some of it's good, some of it is ok and some is just plain bad. But none of it shows a care for what was a very simple cohesive theme ... and cartoon fish and turtles are simply a cheap easy way out, duuuuude.

Do you think that the changes at Epcot have been to the detriment of the park (not conceptually or thematically, but rather institutionally)? Also, do you not think that Epcot, while facing the necessity of change to insure survivability and profitability, has stayed relatively true to its original visions (I still say plural, because I think it's been about more than futurism all along. Maybe not in Walt's mind for his community, but as a theme park.)?

I agree with most of your criticisms of MK and DHS, but as a Disney fan I think that modern Epcot, even with its few gaffs, is something to really be proud of. I guess that makes me a DOE.

 

[kcnole]

Universal's employees are rather rude and the reason I will no longer visit that park. I have it on record with Guest Services how rude their employees are, how they talk down to the guests of the park.... I cancelled my annual pass for Universal... NEVER AGAIN!!!!!!

I agree, I hear this on Disney boards all the time but I visit both parks, and they both hire the exact same people. In fact someone who may be a Universal CM today may be a Disney CM next week and vice versa. They're hiring from the same gene pool and getting the same results. I've had some amazing CMs at both parks and I've had some crappy ones at both parks.

I will say that there may be a few CMs at Disney who you won't find at Universal who truly are the cream of the crop. These are generally older people who remember when WDW first opened and still hold that sentimental attachment to the place and truly are honored to just be there being part of the magic. To this day I still remember a CM I had several years back running the Great Movie Ride. He was an older gentleman and you could tell that he absolutely adored his role on the great movie ride. I wish I had though to go to guest services because he's the kind of employee everyone should be at Disney. He made a rather boring day at MGM into a highly memorable one because of how personal, caring, and excited he was about his job.

Forget DL for a second. Go across town to Sea World. I didn't see any gum at all when I was there last month. Now either SW attracts a higher caliber guest who doesn't spit gum out anywhere (not likely, Orlando is Orlando) or Busch has people clean it up immediately. You know ... the Disney Way!

While I can agree with you that it seems that in many ways Universal and Sea World are both running cleaner parks, they're not better in every area. While I love both these parks, don't forget to notice that they have failures that you would tear Disney apart for having. For example, just take a ride on the only dark ride Sea World has. Journey to Atlantis was an amazing ride when it opened, but over 50% of the effects are broken on that ride. It really is a shell of its former self and a sad shame that something that was once a really great ride has been allowed to rot like it has.

At least Sea World Orlando got the real version of that ride. Its been dumbed down in every single version to where it is nothing more than water coaster in its latest opening with no dark ride. I really wish that Sea World would take as much pride in their rides as they do in the cleanliness of their parks.

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

I've had APs at Uni Florida and Hollywood and honestly don't recall one really rude cast member. I am sure they have plenty though ... as does Disney.

I've noticed the parking Cast Members at Universal are consistently rude, but not many others.

People who never experienced the early days of WDW have no idea what they missed. It would be nearly impossible to describe. Of course the same is true for Florida in general. Thankfully I have a good memory.

As a child who grew up in Florida in the 70s and 80s, all I can say is it is a VERY different place in the 21st century.

And, no, for the most part I don't think the changes have been for the better.

I do wish I had a time machine ( i had one but had to Ebay it when my 401K became worthless) and could take some of the younger people here back to WDW in say 1974, 1984 and 1994 ... show them three decades and how the product was much higher caliber than what it force fed the masses today.

I wish I had a time machine to take some of my fellow CMs back to the 70's and 80's to show them what this place is supposed to be like. I have plenty of friends who have all migrated down here as a result of the College Program, and have only really been here in recent years. It was literally a paradise out in the middle of nowhere, just out beyond some quiet, pleasant farming communities. I think the effect of that isolation had an invaluable effect on the vibe of your experience at Walt Disney World that's lost today. It certainly contributed having local CMs that were generally very excited and pleased to have Disney in town. Now, the growth of the tourism industry here has created a vicious cycle of bringing non-Floridians down here and scaring away the locals. I have a theory that if Universal hadn't come to town, Orlando wouldn't have quite been pushed over the edge like that. Walt bought all this land so that they wouldn't have same problem as at Disneyland of reality crowding in (or used to, I don't think it's as bad nowadays with their expansion), but unfortunately it's happened anyways, with the tourism expansion, and the way Disney has handled and organized its land within its own borders.

Do you think that the changes at Epcot have been to the detriment of the park (not conceptually or thematically, but rather institutionally)? Also, do you not think that Epcot, while facing the necessity of change to insure survivability and profitability, has stayed relatively true to its original visions (I still say plural, because I think it's been about more than futurism all along. Maybe not in Walt's mind for his community, but as a theme park.)?

I agree with most of your criticisms of MK and DHS, but as a Disney fan I think that modern Epcot, even with its few gaffs, is something to really be proud of. I guess that makes me a DOE.

If I may address this, the whole point of EPCOT is getting people engaged in a better tomorrow. Not just what will be new in the years to come but also to provide understanding of other cultures to create a hope for peace in tomorrow's world. World Showcase is relatively unchanged, but Future World has several pavilions now that lack conveying any sense of inspiration or optimism, all of which have the potential to, even in today's modern short attention span society. Spaceship Earth is okay, but panders towards giving you a giggle at seeing your face inserted into a cheap cartoon portraying few realistic concepts for the future. Innoventions is a shell of its previous incarnations, showing Disney's desperation at getting somebody, anybody to rent some exhibit space, technology oriented or not (Fire safety? Come on, it's noble and a fun game, but utterly irrelevant to science and technology.) Universe of Energy is an outdated snoozefest for most people, when that is such a hot topic right now. Wonders of Life goes without saying. Mission: SPACE is high on the future theme, but what little information it conveys about space exploration is lost to most of the park Guests who can't or won't ride it. Test Track, once again fun, but just for a pure adrenaline kick, and doesn't teach you anything that you don't already know from your typical car commercial. You can't tell me that people wouldn't love to see and interact with the new concepts of cars and trains and such that could be coming in the future. Supposedly, the concept cars of TransCenter at World of Motion was the most photographed spot in Walt Disney World in its day. We all know what is wrong with Imagination. The Land is a perfect example of an EPCOT pavilion, and Living with the Land is something that most people are interested in (when I am driving Monorails, talking to Guests about EPCOT, they always recognize that as "the boat ride with the hydroponics), is a relaxing, stress-free ride, always has a decent wait time, is actually updated at a very reasonable pace, and actually contributes research to the agricultural industry. Soarin' is somewhat shoehorned into the building and something more of a World Showcase travelogue, but still ties in to the topic of the pavilion, and I suspect will even more so once it is eventually updated with a new film. Circle of Life could use some freshening, but a nice diversion for kids. And finally, The (Living?) Seas is now just a Fantasyland ride with an aquarium attached. It's been said that the pavilion is just using Nemo to lure Guests into learning about sea life, but let's be honest here, they're just going through the ride, stop for a second to look into the tank, the little ones crawl around and get a picture in the big shark mouth, the family gets a kick out of Crush talking to the kids and doing some tricks and saying DUUUUUDE, and Dad maybe picks up a MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! t-shirt on the way out. Most of the times I've seen Turtle Talk, none of the kids ever ask anything about turtles, usually about something from the movie. Fun stuff, but you're kidding yourself if you think the average family is gaining any kind of knowledge about the oceans at this pavilion, and certainly not a scant thing to be found about sea exploration technology and what we're doing to explore those mysterious depths.

Sorry, that turned out to be more of a fan-boy rant than I intended it to be. :lookaroun

 

[MousDad]

Most of the times I've seen Turtle Talk, none of the kids ever ask anything about turtles, usually about something from the movie.

Actually, my son (7) asked, much to my surprise and without any prompting whatsoever, "can sea turtles go into their shell like other turtles?"

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

Actually, my son (7) asked, much to my surprise and without any prompting whatsoever, "can sea turtles go into their shell like other turtles?"

Hey, you certainly don't hear me knocking WDW fan genes!

 

[tirian]

Off Topic:
As far as I'm concerned, WDW is STILL an oasis in the middle of central Florida. The city of Orlando is like a massive trash heap. Ironically, it wasn't like this until Disney exploded in the 80s.

Back On:
WDW doesn't have its vigilantes like DL, but don't think online criticism is ignored. It does depend, however, on who's doing the talking.

Anyway, as for the "News and Rumors," anyone with a smidgen of "inside info" will agree that several projects are coming; but it's going to take a few years total, so you might as well relax and go to sleep. :snore: :lol:

 

[tirian]

Actually, my son (7) asked, much to my surprise and without any prompting whatsoever, "can sea turtles go into their shell like other turtles?"

The show needs to be more structured to make questions like this normal, not the exception.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

Do you think that the changes at Epcot have been to the detriment of the park (not conceptually or thematically, but rather institutionally)? Also, do you not think that Epcot, while facing the necessity of change to insure survivability and profitability, has stayed relatively true to its original visions (I still say plural, because I think it's been about more than futurism all along. Maybe not in Walt's mind for his community, but as a theme park.)?

I agree with most of your criticisms of MK and DHS, but as a Disney fan I think that modern Epcot, even with its few gaffs, is something to really be proud of. I guess that makes me a DOE.

Modern Epcot gets a bad rap from some. It has problems, but they took a sterile and in many ways boring experience into something that can be educational and enjoyed. Many people forget that Epcot was a park that wasn't always doing so well. Now its a different story.

And anyone who misses the old 70's spaceman character outfits is on mind-expanding drugs. Probably dealt by the man behind the Tiki Room.

In TT, you can still learn a whole lot if you don't run out and actually take a minute to examine the ehibits that are there.

And nothing is as good as you remember it. Ever. In anything. Some people make entire political and popular careers on the concept that we should be backward looking instead of accepting the realities of today and looking forward. Not everything works well, but I think Epcot on the whole is well constructed. And yes, I saw it many times in its 'heyday'.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Modern Epcot gets a bad rap from some. It has problems, but they took a sterile and in many ways boring experience into something that can be educational and enjoyed. Many people forget that Epcot was a park that wasn't always doing so well. Now its a different story.

And anyone who misses the old 70's spaceman character outfits is on mind-expanding drugs. Probably dealt by the man behind the Tiki Room.

In TT, you can still learn a whole lot if you don't run out and actually take a minute to examine the ehibits that are there.

And nothing is as good as you remember it. Ever. In anything. Some people make entire political and popular careers on the concept that we should be backward looking instead of accepting the realities of today and looking forward. Not everything works well, but I think Epcot on the whole is well constructed. And yes, I saw it many times in its 'heyday'.

Aloha Isle?

:lol:

 

[DisneyMusician2]

aloha isle?

:lol:

:roflol::roflol:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

:roflol::roflol:

So I guess having a over abundance of Dole Whips causes Fanboyism?:lol:

I guess that explains it.

Who knew that they improved VISION?

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

And nothing is as good as you remember it. Ever. In anything. Some people make entire political and popular careers on the concept that we should be backward looking instead of accepting the realities of today and looking forward. Not everything works well, but I think Epcot on the whole is well constructed. And yes, I saw it many times in its 'heyday'.

Ah, the main misconception regarding so-called EPCOT purists. Apparently, if you aren't happy with how the park has developed and discuss the things that EPCOT Center did right that it shouldn't have stopped doing, that means you want everything old brought back verbatim.